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The Atheist's Dilemma


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#1    Ben Masada

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Posted 04 August 2014 - 08:42 AM

The Atheist's Dilemma

The atheist's dilemma is his or her struggle to deny the undeniable. When asked for the option to fill in the vacuum left as a result of the removal of the Primal Cause, the usual answer is: I don't know. That's indeed a frustrating dilemma.

Let us avoid the theist method to demonstrate the existence of God to prevent the atheist denial and use Logic which I suppose stands on neutral ground by trying to demonstrate the existence of God by means of a syllogism:

1. First premise: The universe is composed of matter;
2. Second premise: Matter cannot cause itself to exist;
3. Resultant premise: Therefore, the universe was caused to exist.

Now, what could have be the thing that caused the universe to exist? The atheist answer is: I don't know. Yeah, because the only thing they know is that the Primal Cause does not exist. Indeed, a frustrating dilemma which finds explanation only in the atheist struggle to vandalize Theism just for the sake of doing so.


#2    keithisco

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Posted 04 August 2014 - 09:03 AM

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You completely fail to understand atheism, and the obvious answer to your "Primal Cause" belief; is that the Universe always existed in one form or another. It should also be remembered that Matter and Energy are interchangeable therefore your First Premise is incorrectly stated; your Second Premise is incorrectly stated for the same reason; THEREFORE; your resultant Premise is a fallacy that does not conform to Logic.

Edited by keithisco, 04 August 2014 - 09:04 AM.


#3    Getafix1

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Posted 04 August 2014 - 09:23 AM

Ben Masada

Firstly, which one of the thousands of gods are you attributing the creation of the universe to? (there is already a massive problem there if you can see it)

Why do some theists insist on using the "goddidit" argument if science (not atheists mind you) can not yet explain something? Pushing a preferred god into the debate as "proof" boggles the mind. Can you provide any proof for your argument that your god did it Ben Masada? Or are you just using "I don't know" as an excuse to attribute some pretty awesome powers to a god that was revered thousands of years ago by some goat herders? And as there is NO proof for the existence of ANY gods,why should we believe your god exists,never mind accepting as fact that he/she created the universe.


#4    White Crane Feather

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Posted 04 August 2014 - 09:36 AM

View PostBen Masada, on 04 August 2014 - 08:42 AM, said:

The Atheist's Dilemma

The atheist's dilemma is his or her struggle to deny the undeniable. When asked for the option to fill in the vacuum left as a result of the removal of the Primal Cause, the usual answer is: I don't know. That's indeed a frustrating dilemma.

Let us avoid the theist method to demonstrate the existence of God to prevent the atheist denial and use Logic which I suppose stands on neutral ground by trying to demonstrate the existence of God by means of a syllogism:

1. First premise: The universe is composed of matter;
2. Second premise: Matter cannot cause itself to exist;
3. Resultant premise: Therefore, the universe was caused to exist.

Now, what could have be the thing that caused the universe to exist? The atheist answer is: I don't know. Yeah, because the only thing they know is that the Primal Cause does not exist. Indeed, a frustrating dilemma which finds explanation only in the atheist struggle to vandalize Theism just for the sake of doing so.

First premise: the universe is composed of energy/matter, space, dark matter, and dark energy, probably other stuff aswell.

Second premise: yes it can, I'm not sure why you keep dodging actual physics. Is it that you don't believe the experiments are accurate?

3rd: or it could have always existed in one form or another, or there may be many universes, or it may expand then collapse renewing itself, or a god could have created it ----- but then that god would have to have caused itself to exist or always  existed, or  the ultraverse could be so large that our universe is really like a proton in a greater scheme, or we can be a simulation in a completely different kind of universe ( though, I don't believe this, there is some powerful logic and evidence to suggest it) finally fundamental reality may be something that is far beyond the human mind like an ant trying to understand calculus.

You see Ben no one truelly knows  the answer to the great mystery. Atheists sure dont, nor do theists.

"I wish neither to possess, Nor to be possessed. I no longer covet paradise, more important, I no longer fear hell. The medicine for my suffering I had within me from the very beginning, but I did not take it. My ailment came from within myself, But I did not observe it until this moment. Now I see that I will never find the light.  Unless, like the candle, I am my own fuel, Consuming myself. "
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#5    Rlyeh

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Posted 04 August 2014 - 09:37 AM

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Where is the dilemma?

Unlike "God did it", "I don't know" is a truthful answer.


#6    eight bits

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Posted 04 August 2014 - 10:36 AM

Ben

Theists' dilemma.

G-d exists.
G-d did not cause itself to exist.
Therefore, G-d was caused to exist.

Oops. Try this on for size instead:

A Primal Cause happened or else it did not.
Primal Cause happened => not everything that happened needed a cause different from itself.
Primal Cause didn't happen => not everything that happened needed a cause different from itself OR closed-form causal explanation is incomplete (aka "infinite regress").

So, the consensus account of temporal cause-and-effect is either unsound or incomplete. No biggie, so is number theory, and number theory is useful anyway. However, number theory is uninformative about some subjects (notably explaining its foundations), and so is the consensus account of temporal cause-and-effect (notably explaining its foundations).

No sweat that your presumed ancestors tried to "save" their not-quite comprehensive system of cause-and-effect, just as some number theorists tried to "save" their own not-quite comprehensive system at first, when their difficulty became appraent and undeniable ca. 1930. But the shock wears off and mature people realize that some things are more intellectually challenging than they had hoped when they were children.

In any case, this is not your disagreement with atheists. Your dispute concerns a contingent question, whether or not one of the ancient Canaanite gods did in fact create the entire universe alone. This disagreement will not be resolved by necessary reasoning, nor even by stipulation that there was at least one uncaused cause.

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#7    Whatsinausername

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Posted 04 August 2014 - 11:04 AM

View PostBen Masada, on 04 August 2014 - 08:42 AM, said:

The Atheist's Dilemma

The atheist's dilemma is his or her struggle to deny the undeniable. When asked for the option to fill in the vacuum left as a result of the removal of the Primal Cause, the usual answer is: I don't know. That's indeed a frustrating dilemma.

Let us avoid the theist method to demonstrate the existence of God to prevent the atheist denial and use Logic which I suppose stands on neutral ground by trying to demonstrate the existence of God by means of a syllogism:

1. First premise: The universe is composed of matter;
2. Second premise: Matter cannot cause itself to exist;
3. Resultant premise: Therefore, the universe was caused to exist.

Now, what could have be the thing that caused the universe to exist? The atheist answer is: I don't know. Yeah, because the only thing they know is that the Primal Cause does not exist. Indeed, a frustrating dilemma which finds explanation only in the atheist struggle to vandalize Theism just for the sake of doing so.

I would think the real dilemma will occur once they die.........


#8    Doug1o29

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Posted 04 August 2014 - 12:40 PM

View PostBen Masada, on 04 August 2014 - 08:42 AM, said:

The Atheist's Dilemma

The atheist's dilemma is his or her struggle to deny the undeniable. When asked for the option to fill in the vacuum left as a result of the removal of the Primal Cause, the usual answer is: I don't know. That's indeed a frustrating dilemma.
The atheist says he doesn't know.  The theist makes up some BS and says he does.  THAT is undeniable.  At least the atheist knows he's telling the truth.

Quote

Let us avoid the theist method to demonstrate the existence of God to prevent the atheist denial and use Logic which I suppose stands on neutral ground by trying to demonstrate the existence of God by means of a syllogism:

1. First premise: The universe is composed of matter;
You left out energy, time and space.

Quote

2. Second premise: Matter cannot cause itself to exist;
We don't know this to be true.  Energy can create matter.  E = mc2 - remember?

Quote

3. Resultant premise: Therefore, the universe was caused to exist.

Now, what could have be the thing that caused the universe to exist? The atheist answer is: I don't know. Yeah, because the only thing they know is that the Primal Cause does not exist. Indeed, a frustrating dilemma which finds explanation only in the atheist struggle to vandalize Theism just for the sake of doing so.
You just flunked Logic 101.  See Post # 4 on the "Atheists don't own reason" thread for an explanation.
Doug

Edited by Doug1o29, 04 August 2014 - 12:43 PM.

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#9    Rafterman

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Posted 04 August 2014 - 02:48 PM

View PostBen Masada, on 04 August 2014 - 08:42 AM, said:

The Atheist's Dilemma

The atheist's dilemma is his or her struggle to deny the undeniable. When asked for the option to fill in the vacuum left as a result of the removal of the Primal Cause, the usual answer is: I don't know. That's indeed a frustrating dilemma.

Let us avoid the theist method to demonstrate the existence of God to prevent the atheist denial and use Logic which I suppose stands on neutral ground by trying to demonstrate the existence of God by means of a syllogism:

1. First premise: The universe is composed of matter;
2. Second premise: Matter cannot cause itself to exist;
3. Resultant premise: Therefore, the universe was caused to exist.

Now, what could have be the thing that caused the universe to exist? The atheist answer is: I don't know. Yeah, because the only thing they know is that the Primal Cause does not exist. Indeed, a frustrating dilemma which finds explanation only in the atheist struggle to vandalize Theism just for the sake of doing so.

And what's wrong with simply saying "we don't know"?  There are a books filled with things we did not know at some point in our history that are now fully explained and understood.  What if we had simply stopped at "and god" and didn't pursue the quest for knowledge and understanding?

"You can't have freedom of religion without having freedom from the religious beliefs of other people."

#10    quiXilver

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Posted 04 August 2014 - 03:32 PM

View PostBen Masada, on 04 August 2014 - 08:42 AM, said:

The Atheist's Dilemma

The atheist's dilemma is his or her struggle to deny the undeniable. When asked for the option to fill in the vacuum left as a result of the removal of the Primal Cause, the usual answer is: I don't know. That's indeed a frustrating dilemma.


No it isn't, but it's a common assumption.
Although, it does take as much faith to believe there isn't a God as it does to believe there is... as there is no proof either way.

For me, I've had many experiences that have removed the fear of death and identification of self with body and as for the mind, there is no problem with the lack of proof.  This is a massive universe beyond mere human comprehension.  When not operating on the false premise that we should understand it, no dissonance is experienced... at least by me.

My experiences set well with me, giving me an experiential sense of my place in the order of the process of the conditions which I may not understand with thoughts, which are unable to express or contain the unfathomable.  Thought forms cannot contain, nor accurately communicate those experiences that exist beyond the realm of mind and body.

Spirit is more accurately expressed in music than words, but even this, is a smear on the surface.

The menu is not the meal... you can read the word water and talk about it all week, but that will not quench your thirst.

Live, Love if you can and leave people be... this process opens my heart and fills my life with that which is beyond words ability to express... though there's no harm in trying, as long as you're not telling everyone that your way is the way.

peace.

"Unknowingly, we plow the dust of stars, blown about us by the wind and drink the universe in a glass of rain."
Ihab Hassan

Everything you Love and Everything you Hate, come from the Same Source:  Creighton Larson

#11    shrooma

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Posted 04 August 2014 - 03:39 PM

this is EXACTLY the same thread as your last one Ben.
it isn't a topic that warrants more than one thread.
you're just belabouring a point.
.
over & over again.
.


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#12    Emma_Acid

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Posted 04 August 2014 - 04:14 PM

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A God of the Gaps argument dressed up as pseudo-philosophical waffle.

In 200 years, science has come closer than ever to answering these questions - the Abrahamic faiths have had 2000 years, and are just angrily repeating the same old nonsense, which isn't getting us anywhere as a civilisation - prayer won't get us to Mars, Newtonian physics will.

Edited by Emma_Acid, 04 August 2014 - 04:14 PM.

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#13    JJ50

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Posted 04 August 2014 - 04:41 PM

View PostBen Masada, on 04 August 2014 - 08:42 AM, said:

The Atheist's Dilemma

The atheist's dilemma is his or her struggle to deny the undeniable. When asked for the option to fill in the vacuum left as a result of the removal of the Primal Cause, the usual answer is: I don't know. That's indeed a frustrating dilemma.

Let us avoid the theist method to demonstrate the existence of God to prevent the atheist denial and use Logic which I suppose stands on neutral ground by trying to demonstrate the existence of God by means of a syllogism:

1. First premise: The universe is composed of matter;
2. Second premise: Matter cannot cause itself to exist;
3. Resultant premise: Therefore, the universe was caused to exist.

Now, what could have be the thing that caused the universe to exist? The atheist answer is: I don't know. Yeah, because the only thing they know is that the Primal Cause does not exist. Indeed, a frustrating dilemma which finds explanation only in the atheist struggle to vandalize Theism just for the sake of doing so.

One day science will probably come up with the solution showing exactly how the universe was formed, and I suspect no deity was involved!

“The wise recognise their failings and laugh at their idiosyncrasies” RJG



#14    Rafterman

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Posted 04 August 2014 - 05:33 PM

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View PostEmma_Acid, on 04 August 2014 - 04:14 PM, said:

A God of the Gaps argument dressed up as pseudo-philosophical waffle.

In 200 years, science has come closer than ever to answering these questions - the Abrahamic faiths have had 2000 years, and are just angrily repeating the same old nonsense, which isn't getting us anywhere as a civilisation - prayer won't get us to Mars, Newtonian physics will.

Emma drops mic and walks offstage.

Edited by Rafterman, 04 August 2014 - 05:33 PM.

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#15    the-Unexpected-Soul

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Posted 04 August 2014 - 05:47 PM

View PostEmma_Acid, on 04 August 2014 - 04:14 PM, said:

prayer won't get us to Mars, Newtonian physics will.

I pray that one day we will go to Mars, now when we reach there tell me it wasn't me lol

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