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Holiness and true justice

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#1    markdohle

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Posted 06 August 2014 - 01:02 PM

Holiness and true justice



Grace is a gift. It is like rain that falls from the sky, and it soaks the earth, freely given, allowing life to flourish.  The prayer below is beautiful.  It was sent to me by a good friend.  In seeking to develop a heart for God, it is compassion that is sought for first.  For by compassion we learn from our own sufferings that we are all on the same road.  Compassion leads to empathy and only then can holiness and true justice occur.  Without compassion and empathy we become hard, self righteous, and drive people away from us.  For when we are self righteous others see our duplicity and we are left alone in our blindness.
Prayer

Righteous God Almighty, may my life reflect your character and nature in compassion, holiness, and justice. I know you are forever and I want to invest my life in what lasts. Give me wisdom to see through the fleeting temptations of today and to do what honors you beyond my lifetime. In Jesus' name. Amen.
The Thoughts and Prayers for Today's Verse are written by Phil Ware.

Edited by markdohle, 06 August 2014 - 01:03 PM.


#2    toyomotor

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Posted 06 August 2014 - 02:27 PM

Wow!! Man have you missed the boat?

In the real world, there is no connection at all between holiness and true justice.

Athiests are just as able to dispense justice, in all of it forms, as Christians.

And in many cases, justice is arrived at out of negotiation, or as an expeditious means of solving a problem.

Now, true justice, associated with holiness, would be the recognition and compensation of those perhaps thousands of people around the world who have been sexually mistreated by the various faiths, or otherwise mistreated and in some cases, murdered.

True justice would be allowing people to marry whom they choose, regardless of religious denomination, to have children and to raise families.

True justice would be the recognition of same sex people and their right to marry.

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#3    JJ50

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Posted 06 August 2014 - 02:46 PM

View Postmarkdohle, on 06 August 2014 - 01:02 PM, said:


Holiness and true justice



Grace is a gift. It is like rain that falls from the sky, and it soaks the earth, freely given, allowing life to flourish.  The prayer below is beautiful.  It was sent to me by a good friend.  In seeking to develop a heart for God, it is compassion that is sought for first.  For by compassion we learn from our own sufferings that we are all on the same road.  Compassion leads to empathy and only then can holiness and true justice occur.  Without compassion and empathy we become hard, self righteous, and drive people away from us.  For when we are self righteous others see our duplicity and we are left alone in our blindness.
Prayer

Righteous God Almighty, may my life reflect your character and nature in compassion, holiness, and justice. I know you are forever and I want to invest my life in what lasts. Give me wisdom to see through the fleeting temptations of today and to do what honors you beyond my lifetime. In Jesus' name. Amen.
The Thoughts and Prayers for Today's Verse are written by Phil Ware.

The Biblical deity doesn't display any compassion, just the opposite! :devil:

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#4    Perceptivum

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Posted 07 August 2014 - 08:07 PM

View Posttoyomotor, on 06 August 2014 - 02:27 PM, said:

True justice would be allowing people to marry whom they choose, regardless of religious denomination, to have children and to raise families.

True justice would be the recognition of same sex people and their right to marry.

According to the bible, it is the act or practice of homosexuality that is immoral and an abomination; not being gay per se.  Homosexuals do not "automatically" go to hell, but the act of homosexuality is a sin and does require one to repent.  Whether you are born, or choose to be, gay isn't the problem, it's always comes down to how you behave.

View PostJJ50, on 06 August 2014 - 02:46 PM, said:

The Biblical deity doesn't display any compassion, just the opposite! :devil:

Just like all your other posts, you really missed the mark.  If God wasn't compassionate He never would have sent His son to die on the cross (John 3:16), and that's enough.  Moreover, if God wasn't compassionate He would have struck you (me and everyone else for that matter) down dead already for our unholiness.

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#5    markdohle

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Posted 10 August 2014 - 10:45 PM

View Posttoyomotor, on 06 August 2014 - 02:27 PM, said:

Wow!! Man have you missed the boat?

In the real world, there is no connection at all between holiness and true justice.

Athiests are just as able to dispense justice, in all of it forms, as Christians.

And in many cases, justice is arrived at out of negotiation, or as an expeditious means of solving a problem.

Now, true justice, associated with holiness, would be the recognition and compensation of those perhaps thousands of people around the world who have been sexually mistreated by the various faiths, or otherwise mistreated and in some cases, murdered.

True justice would be allowing people to marry whom they choose, regardless of religious denomination, to have children and to raise families.

True justice would be the recognition of same sex people and their right to marry.

How do you treat others?  That is where true justice starts, not with some broad statements about others.  It is too easy to do that.  We all long for justice, we perhaps have different perspectives, but according to the Christian path, we are called to love our enemies.  I have never said that only believers are holy.  I have known many people who have no faith but are very kind and loving.  For me it shows that God grace works in all hearts.  St. Paul talks about that in Romans:

Quote

For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey(U) the law who will be declared righteous. 14 (Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law,(V) they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.) 16 This will take place on the day when God judges people’s secrets(W) through Jesus Christ,(X) as my gospel(Y) declares.

The christian faith is not about being 'good' but about being open to the love of God, which leads to a transformation of the heart.  Just because many fail to do that, or perhaps they are on the road of growth and trust in God, does not surprise me.  I often fail but trust in God mercy towards me and towards all. I do not allow the failures of others to dictate to me what I believe or what path I will walk.  We are called to a bigger life, a more loving life, for me that comes from being open to the seed, the grace that is given to us all.  All we need do is to be open, seek and we will find.

Peace
mark

Edited by markdohle, 10 August 2014 - 10:47 PM.


#6    Marcus Aurelius

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Posted 10 August 2014 - 11:23 PM

Quote

Now, true justice, associated with holiness, would be the recognition and compensation of those perhaps thousands of people around the world who have been sexually mistreated by the various faiths, or otherwise mistreated and in some cases, murdered.

True justice would be allowing people to marry whom they choose, regardless of religious denomination, to have children and to raise families.

True justice would be the recognition of same sex people and their right to marry.


How can you demonstrate that your conception of "justice" is "true" in any objective sense?

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#7    markdohle

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Posted 28 August 2014 - 12:35 PM

toyomotor' timestamp said:


Quote

Now, true justice, associated with holiness, would be the recognition and compensation of those perhaps thousands of people around the world who have been sexually mistreated by the various faiths, or otherwise mistreated and in some cases, murdered.

Why stop with religion, what about injustices you have done to others, have you made recompense for those you hurt in your life, or back stabbed, or cheated in any way?  I am not picking on you, but it is easy for most people to be very unjust towards others and not even avert to the fact, that is until it happens to them.   What about parents who abuse their children, should they also be brought to justice?  Businesses who cheat their customers, how about them?  Governments who abuse and take the freedoms away from their people?  Our own government for its wrong doings? It is impossible to bring actual true justice to everyone, however we can learn to treat others with justice and love.  Your issues with religion is just an excuse for you not to look at yourself perhaps.  Justice starts in the human heart, not in religion, but in the choices we all make every day.  The life of God as it grows in the heart does bring about a love and caring for others that precludes treating others as objects to be use, cheated etc.

Peace
mark


#8    TheMustardLady

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Posted 28 August 2014 - 01:09 PM

It does sound wonderful and wishful Mark, if only, right? I do like what toyomoter said, but I will have to remember this is a religious thread, and as a secular raised New Ager, I have no place to say what is what suppose to be.
I don't think Mark, you are talking about interfering with others on how they are treated, right? Is this suppose to seen as having faith from a far and believing your faith will help others?

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#9    markdohle

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Posted 28 August 2014 - 01:48 PM

View PostStubbly_Dooright, on 28 August 2014 - 01:09 PM, said:

It does sound wonderful and wishful Mark, if only, right? I do like what toyomoter said, but I will have to remember this is a religious thread, and as a secular raised New Ager, I have no place to say what is what suppose to be.
I don't think Mark, you are talking about interfering with others on how they are treated, right? Is this suppose to seen as having faith from a far and believing your faith will help others?

I think what we truly believe will show in how we treat others.  You judge a tree by its fruit.......not by what is said or preached.  Saying and preaching may be helpful, but it is our actions that show who we are.  I have humanist friends, some live what they say, others like many Christians are just full of Sh-t.

Peace
Mark

Edited by markdohle, 28 August 2014 - 01:49 PM.


#10    Jor-el

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Posted 28 August 2014 - 06:27 PM

View PostMarcus Aurelius, on 10 August 2014 - 11:23 PM, said:

How can you demonstrate that your conception of "justice" is "true" in any objective sense?

The most ancient form of true justice is to deliver unto the wrongdoer the same as he delivered unto others. In other words, an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth and so on. Naturally this would raise questions of our own humanity in regard to treating others and whether we have the right to deliver said justice.

But the right I would think is given to a society as it seeks to deliver that justice instead of killing the entire family of the wrongdoer as was many times practiced in many places, Blood Feuds were and still are common practice in many places.

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#11    Jeanne dArc

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Posted 29 August 2014 - 10:37 PM

View PostPerceptivum, on 07 August 2014 - 08:07 PM, said:

According to the bible, it is the act or practice of homosexuality that is immoral and an abomination; not being gay per se.  Homosexuals do not "automatically" go to hell, but the act of homosexuality is a sin and does require one to repent.  Whether you are born, or choose to be, gay isn't the problem, it's always comes down to how you behave.

Well, specifically, the Bible prohibits *spam filter* between homosexual partners, not homosexuality, or even same-sex marriage. Some of the Bible's principal characters are blatantly engaged in same-sex relationships: David and Jonathan being a classic example.

View PostPerceptivum, on 07 August 2014 - 08:07 PM, said:

Just like all your other posts, you really missed the mark.  If God wasn't compassionate He never would have sent His son to die on the cross (John 3:16), and that's enough.  Moreover, if God wasn't compassionate He would have struck you (me and everyone else for that matter) down dead already for our unholiness.

Wait, didn't God already murder everyone in the Flood for their unholiness? Allegedly, of course. There is very little compassion or genuine ethical behavior to be found from YHWH: rather we find a war god who can occasionally bring himself to be merciful. There's a reason why constant sacrifices were paid unto him: he was a god of fear and destruction, who threatened utter annihilation of his people if he was not kept perpetually assuaged of his seemingly endless wrath. As for the alleged "compassion" of Jesus' alleged crucifixion (I love the fact that you felt the need to cite John 3:16, as if even a single person here might be unfamiliar with it :lol: haha), it has a similar function: to avert YHWH's infinite wrath. Such a bizarrely complicated scheme: one would think an omnipotent deity capable of anything could simply forgive peope, without blood sacrifice. Surely even a lesser deity could be apeased through some other means. At the very least, the problem of evil must be addressed before anyone could even remotely claim that YHWH has ever demonstrated even an inkling of "compassion".


#12    Opus Magnus

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Posted 29 August 2014 - 11:05 PM

I really don't think Jonathan and David were gay.  It emphasized that they were best friends.  I know what they felt for each other because I had a friend like that when I was a young boy and it's not gay.  It never says anything sexual about the two.  I really don't remember bible characters being engaged in same sex relations.


#13    libstaK

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Posted 29 August 2014 - 11:17 PM

Whether your concept of morality and true justice is based on secular belief or a belief in God - both are important to cultivate for those who adhere to one or the other.  I believe Mark Dohle was expounding a christian entreaty to Holiness and Justice, not negating the secular views of justice.

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#14    hellig heilige

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Posted 29 August 2014 - 11:36 PM

View PostOpus Magnus, on 29 August 2014 - 11:05 PM, said:

It never says anything sexual about the two.  I really don't remember bible characters being engaged in same sex relations.
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#15    Jeanne dArc

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Posted 30 August 2014 - 05:40 AM

View PostOpus Magnus, on 29 August 2014 - 11:05 PM, said:

I really don't think Jonathan and David were gay.  It emphasized that they were best friends.  I know what they felt for each other because I had a friend like that when I was a young boy and it's not gay.  It never says anything sexual about the two.  I really don't remember bible characters being engaged in same sex relations.

http://en.wikipedia....n#Homoeroticism

There are numerous interpretations of the story, but I for one do see clear indications of a same-sex romantic relationship. Perhaps it was not sexual, but it does seem homoromantic, at least. The story of Ruth and Naomi is sometimes interpreted in similar terms. I've even seen some evidence that Jesus himself may have entertained a pederastic relationship. Anyway, it's all up to interpretation. I personally am unconvinced that most of these characters (Jesus included) were necessarily historical figures at all, but yeah ^_^






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