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The Palestinian / Israeli conflict


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#1    Riaan

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Posted 07 August 2014 - 05:01 PM

In view of the current Israeli / Palestinian conflict, I could not help but wonder who was there first. As claimed by Manetho, the ancient Hebrews were none other than the Hyksos who were driven from Egypt by Ahmose I and settled in Palestine, where they built Jerusalem (I prove this theory in my book Thera and the Exodus. In the last chapter of Thera and the Exodus I speculate that the Hebrews may have been as ancient as the Egyptians themselves, with Ab-Ra-am meaning Father-Ra-of-the-People, in other words the Egyption 'god' Ra (Re).

Either way, there can be no doubt that the Israelites were in charge of most parts of Palestine in the time of Christ. I am not familiar with the more recent history of Palestine in terms of when the Jews would have been driven from that land. By the Ottoman Empire? Any comments?

Edited by Riaan, 07 August 2014 - 05:07 PM.

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Thera and the Exodus, published February 2013, details here
Barbelo - The Story of Jesus Christ, published October 2014, details here

#2    Mr.United_Nations

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Posted 07 August 2014 - 05:02 PM

do we really need this?it will be like 8,000 pages long


#3    Gingitsune

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Posted 07 August 2014 - 06:18 PM

Who was there first? Well, are we even sure today Jews have anything to do with bilical Hebrews? Or that Palestinians aren't ancien Hebrews converted into Muslims when the new religion came around?

Anyway, in absolute term, Neandertals were there first. :tu:


#4    LucidElement

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Posted 07 August 2014 - 06:21 PM

Maybe this will help.

Link: http://www.freerepublic.com

1. Israel became a nation in 1312 B.C.E., two thousand years before the rise of Islam.
2. Arab refugees began identifying themselves as part of a Palestinian people in 1967, two decades after the establishment of the modern State of Israel.
3. Since the Jewish conquest in 1272 B.C.E, the Jews had dominion over the land for one thousand years with a continuous presence in the land for the past 3,300 years.
4.The only Arab domination since the conquest in 635 C.E. lasted no more than 22 years.
5. For over 3,300 years, Jerusalem has been the Jewish capital. Jerusalem has never been the capital of any Arab or Muslim entity. Even when the Jordanians occupied Jerusalem, they never sought to make it their capital, and Arab leaders did not come to visit.
6. Jerusalem is mentioned over 700 hundred times in Bible. Jerusalem is not mentioned once in the Koran.
7. King David founded the city of Jerusalem. Mohammed never came to Jerusalem.
8. Jews pray facing Jerusalem. Muslims pray with their backs toward Jerusalem.
9. Arab and Jewish refugees: Arabs were not driven out of their homes. Following the UN decision on Partition in 1948, the Arab refugees were encouraged to leave Israel by Arab leaders, promising to purge the land of Jews. They argued that an "Arab presence" would only get in the way of the planned devastation. Sixty-eight percent left without ever seeing an Israeli soldier.
10. The Jewish refugees were forced to flee from Arab lands due to Arab brutality, persecution and pogroms.
11. The number of Arab refugees who left Israel in 1948 is estimated to be around 630,000. The number of Jewish refugees absorbed by Israel from Arab countries is estimated to be the same.
12. Arab refugees were INTENTIONALLY not absorbed or integrated into the Arab lands to which they fled, despite the vast Arab territory. Out of the 100,000,000 refugees since World War II, theirs is the only refugee group in the world that has never been absorbed or integrated into their own peoples'lands. Jewish refugees were completely absorbed into Israel, a country no larger than the state of New Jersey.
13. The Arabs are represented by eight separate nations, not including the Palestinians. There is only one Jewish nation. The Arab nations initiated all five wars and lost. Israel defended itself each time and won.
14. The P.L.O.'s Charter still calls for the destruction of the state of Israel. Israel has given the Palestinians most of the West Bank and autonomy under the Palestinian Authority, and has supplied their police and security forces with weapons.
15. Under Jordanian rule, Jewish holy sites were desecrated and the Jews were denied access to places of worship. Jewish grave markers were used to build public urinals in occupied Jerusalem. Under Israeli rule, all Muslim and Christian sites have been preserved and made accessible to people of all faiths.
16. The U.N. record on Israel and the Arabs of the 175 Security Council resolutions passed before 1990, 97 were directed against Israel -- notwithstanding the fact that the Arabs refused to participate in the 15 nation United Nations Commission of Palestine which recommended partition in 1948 and sought immediately to undo its work by force of arms.
17. Of the 690 General Assembly resolutions voted on before 1990, 429 were directed against Israel.
18. The U.N. was silent while 58 Jerusalem Synagogues were destroyed by the Jordanians between 1948 and 1967.
19. The U.N. was silent while the Jordanians systematically desecrated the ancient Jewish cemetery on the Mount of Olives between 1948 and 1967.
20. The U.N. was silent while the Jordanians enforced an apartheid-like policy of preventing Jews from visiting the Temple Mount and the Western Wall between 1948 and 1967.

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#5    questionmark

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Posted 07 August 2014 - 06:24 PM

Both,  just the one gang was first believers of Baal, the others of Jehova and because they could not get it together were first taken over by the Assyrians, then by the Greek and then by the Romans.

Now, if you ask what nation has the oldest rights to that nation the short answer would be the Egyptians on the south (about 1000 years before the first Jew showed up) and the Syrians to the North (about the same time frame). But given that both were horribly spanked by the Greeks and lost the area (besides their home countries) I doubt that they can provide the title.

But I don't believe that you actually want to discuss history here, you just want to push down some pro-Israeli or pro-Palestinian propaganda down our throats... for which we have the Near East forum.

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#6    Perceptivum

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Posted 07 August 2014 - 06:40 PM

View Postquestionmark, on 07 August 2014 - 06:24 PM, said:

But I don't believe that you actually want to discuss history here, you just want to push down some pro-Israeli or pro-Palestinian propaganda down our throats... for which we have the Near East forum.

I would disagree.  The OP's starting thread seems rather innocuous and asks an authentic question.  Then LucidElement provided an excellent recap of history for us to answer the question.

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#7    questionmark

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Posted 07 August 2014 - 06:49 PM

View PostPerceptivum, on 07 August 2014 - 06:40 PM, said:

I would disagree.  The OP's starting thread seems rather innocuous and asks an authentic question.  Then LucidElement provided an excellent recap of history for us to answer the question.

As far as history there is nothing to discuss, the facts are quite well established. So is the fact that Palestine, at the time it was given to the (mostly European) Jews belonged to the British Empire, and as owners they could do what they well pleased with it (even though I still think they should have taken Namibia which was on the table as alternative).

Israel and what we call now Palestine was created at the same time by the UN partition plan. The Israel-Palestinian problem came months after that... but that is a different story, and a story of a civil war that still has not ended today.

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#8    cormac mac airt

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Posted 07 August 2014 - 07:31 PM

View PostLucidElement, on 07 August 2014 - 06:21 PM, said:

Maybe this will help.

Link: http://www.freerepublic.com

1. Israel became a nation in 1312 B.C.E., two thousand years before the rise of Islam.
2. Arab refugees began identifying themselves as part of a Palestinian people in 1967, two decades after the establishment of the modern State of Israel.
3. Since the Jewish conquest in 1272 B.C.E, the Jews had dominion over the land for one thousand years with a continuous presence in the land for the past 3,300 years.
4.The only Arab domination since the conquest in 635 C.E. lasted no more than 22 years.
5. For over 3,300 years, Jerusalem has been the Jewish capital. Jerusalem has never been the capital of any Arab or Muslim entity. Even when the Jordanians occupied Jerusalem, they never sought to make it their capital, and Arab leaders did not come to visit.
6. Jerusalem is mentioned over 700 hundred times in Bible. Jerusalem is not mentioned once in the Koran.
7. King David founded the city of Jerusalem. Mohammed never came to Jerusalem.
8. Jews pray facing Jerusalem. Muslims pray with their backs toward Jerusalem.
9. Arab and Jewish refugees: Arabs were not driven out of their homes. Following the UN decision on Partition in 1948, the Arab refugees were encouraged to leave Israel by Arab leaders, promising to purge the land of Jews. They argued that an "Arab presence" would only get in the way of the planned devastation. Sixty-eight percent left without ever seeing an Israeli soldier.
10. The Jewish refugees were forced to flee from Arab lands due to Arab brutality, persecution and pogroms.
11. The number of Arab refugees who left Israel in 1948 is estimated to be around 630,000. The number of Jewish refugees absorbed by Israel from Arab countries is estimated to be the same.
12. Arab refugees were INTENTIONALLY not absorbed or integrated into the Arab lands to which they fled, despite the vast Arab territory. Out of the 100,000,000 refugees since World War II, theirs is the only refugee group in the world that has never been absorbed or integrated into their own peoples'lands. Jewish refugees were completely absorbed into Israel, a country no larger than the state of New Jersey.
13. The Arabs are represented by eight separate nations, not including the Palestinians. There is only one Jewish nation. The Arab nations initiated all five wars and lost. Israel defended itself each time and won.
14. The P.L.O.'s Charter still calls for the destruction of the state of Israel. Israel has given the Palestinians most of the West Bank and autonomy under the Palestinian Authority, and has supplied their police and security forces with weapons.
15. Under Jordanian rule, Jewish holy sites were desecrated and the Jews were denied access to places of worship. Jewish grave markers were used to build public urinals in occupied Jerusalem. Under Israeli rule, all Muslim and Christian sites have been preserved and made accessible to people of all faiths.
16. The U.N. record on Israel and the Arabs of the 175 Security Council resolutions passed before 1990, 97 were directed against Israel -- notwithstanding the fact that the Arabs refused to participate in the 15 nation United Nations Commission of Palestine which recommended partition in 1948 and sought immediately to undo its work by force of arms.
17. Of the 690 General Assembly resolutions voted on before 1990, 429 were directed against Israel.
18. The U.N. was silent while 58 Jerusalem Synagogues were destroyed by the Jordanians between 1948 and 1967.
19. The U.N. was silent while the Jordanians systematically desecrated the ancient Jewish cemetery on the Mount of Olives between 1948 and 1967.
20. The U.N. was silent while the Jordanians enforced an apartheid-like policy of preventing Jews from visiting the Temple Mount and the Western Wall between 1948 and 1967.

It really doesn't since there is much that isn't correct in the above about Jerusalem's and Israel's origins.

cormac

The city and citizens, which you yesterday described to us in fiction, we will now transfer to the world of reality. It shall be the ancient city of Athens, and we will suppose that the citizens whom you imagined, were our veritable ancestors, of whom the priest spoke; they will perfectly harmonise, and there will be no inconsistency in saying that the citizens of your republic are these ancient Athenians. --  Plato's Timaeus

#9    Bennu

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Posted 07 August 2014 - 07:33 PM

You can't discuss this subject because it involves two different "races'. See this here;

"UM Rules:

3a. Racism or hatred: We have zero tolerance for racism or hatred towards any specific race, religion, country, gender, individual or group

Racism (of any form) is not allowed on UM forums."

If you were to mention Jews and Muslims, or Israelis and Arabs, you would have made a distinction between two identifiable groups. Then if you were to say that one of them is in the right and the other is wrong, you will have been guilty of UM forum racism. Therefore, this discussion can never actually take place on this forum unless you say that both groups are exactly equal and both are entirely in the right. In fact, from my experience here, you wouldn't even have to side with one or the other to be guilty of racism. Merely stating or implying that the two groups are in any way different would suffice for you to be labeled a racist. Yup, whenever people can't make valid points and win a debate based thereon, all they have to do is cry racism. There is rarely a situation involving discussing human relations in which racism can't be accused. It comes in so handy. If you were to say that the Jews deserve to live in Israel because the Bible says that they are God's chosen people, WHICH I AM NOT SAYING, then you would be guilty of racism. The Bible itself is abundantly racist and can therefore never be quoted in this forum.

Edited by Bennu, 07 August 2014 - 07:39 PM.


#10    questionmark

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Posted 07 August 2014 - 07:36 PM

View PostBennu, on 07 August 2014 - 07:33 PM, said:

You can't discuss this subject because it involves two different "races'. See this here;

"UM Rules:

3a. Racism or hatred: We have zero tolerance for racism or hatred towards any specific race, religion, country, gender, individual or group

Racism (of any form) is not allowed on UM forums."

If you were to mention Jews and Muslims, or Israelis and Arabs, you would have made a distinction between two identifiable groups. Then if you were to say that one of them is in the right and the other is wrong, you will have been guilty of UM forum racism. Therefore, this discussion can never actually take place on this forum unless you say that both groups are exactly equal and both are entirely in the right.

I would doubt that Israelis of ME origin are a "different race" than Palestinians of ME origin.

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The most dangerous views of the world are from those who have never seen it. ~ Alexander v. Humboldt
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#11    cormac mac airt

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Posted 07 August 2014 - 07:44 PM

Quote

You can't discuss this subject because it involves two different "races'.

There are a few problems with your argument:  1)  "Race" is a social/sociopolitical construct created for no other reason than to make one group feel superior over another. In short, it's BS; 2) Jews and Palestinians are NOT different "races", but different ethnicities. That you apparently don't know the difference is rather telling and 3) crossing a line in one thread doesn't give you the right to quote rules to others in another.

cormac

The city and citizens, which you yesterday described to us in fiction, we will now transfer to the world of reality. It shall be the ancient city of Athens, and we will suppose that the citizens whom you imagined, were our veritable ancestors, of whom the priest spoke; they will perfectly harmonise, and there will be no inconsistency in saying that the citizens of your republic are these ancient Athenians. --  Plato's Timaeus

#12    Bennu

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Posted 07 August 2014 - 07:44 PM

View Postquestionmark, on 07 August 2014 - 07:36 PM, said:

I would doubt that Israelis of ME origin are a "different race" than Palestinians of ME origin.

But are they of a different religion? Look at the quote I gave again.

"We have zero tolerance for racism or hatred towards any specific race, religion, country, gender, individual or group."

You can't discuss the difference in religion between the Jews and Palestinians or that they are from different countries if you side with one or the other. Now proceed to say something about the subject of this thread and see if I can show you how it qualifies as racism by this forum's standards. Which group do you think is in the right. Careful now. You mustn't offend either one.

Edited by Bennu, 07 August 2014 - 07:47 PM.


#13    PersonFromPorlock

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Posted 07 August 2014 - 07:46 PM

Well, there are Neanderthal remains in the area. :innocent:


#14    questionmark

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Posted 07 August 2014 - 07:46 PM

View PostBennu, on 07 August 2014 - 07:44 PM, said:

But are they of a different religion? Look at the quote I gave again.

"We have zero tolerance for racism or hatred towards any specific race, religion, country, gender, individual or group."

You can't discuss the difference in religion between the Jews and Palestinians or that they are from different countries if you side with one or the other. Now proceed to say something about the subject of this thread and see if I can show you how it qualifies as racism by this forum's standards.

We are neither discussing the benefits or drawbacks of their respective religion but who was there first (answer: both).

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#15    Bennu

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Posted 07 August 2014 - 07:49 PM

View Postquestionmark, on 07 August 2014 - 07:46 PM, said:

We are neither discussing the benefits or drawbacks of their respective religion but who was there first (answer: both).

Okay, and who do you say was "there first"? Oh, I guess you said both, which of course means that there was no first. So that subject is no longer of any concern. Now what do you say should happen with the Palestinians? Should the Israelis let them fire rockets at them with no military response?

Edited by Bennu, 07 August 2014 - 07:52 PM.





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