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Germany Severing Profitable Ties to Russia


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#16    keithisco

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Posted 14 August 2014 - 10:09 AM

View PostBr Cornelius, on 14 August 2014 - 09:59 AM, said:

Keith there is ample evidence that the EU and USA were pumping large amounts of money into what they euphamistically called "democracy building activities" - which translates into supporting the opposition parties who started the protests. This really isn't open to dispute.
If you whole thinking is based on denial of this fact then you haven't got much to contribute. For once I am in total agreement with everything Steve said.

Br Cornelius

Please show which of your sources support anything that you have said. Any moneys given to Ukraine to aid and support their drive to become a stable, independent, democracy was given to the Government directly (in line with International Law) i.e. it was Yanukovych that received these moneys - not the protest movement. The fact that Yanukovych probably put these monies directly into his own back pocket should tell you something - or then again maybe not.


#17    Br Cornelius

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Posted 14 August 2014 - 10:31 AM

http://scgnews.com/t...-not-being-told

Those who would deny that the USA and EU were in active collusion with Neo-Nazi's who have subsequently taken control of the Kiev Government are simply deluding themselves. Just look at who is currently in the Government and deny that the same people were in negotiations with top US/EU officials on the run up to the coup. People who no civilized administration should even entertain negotiating with. Nazi's are not acceptable political allies.

Ignore the spin - look at the facts.

Br Cornelius

Edited by Br Cornelius, 14 August 2014 - 10:46 AM.

I believe nothing, but I have my suspicions.

Robert Anton Wilson

#18    keithisco

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Posted 14 August 2014 - 11:28 AM

View PostBr Cornelius, on 14 August 2014 - 10:31 AM, said:

http://scgnews.com/t...-not-being-told

Those who would deny that the USA and EU were in active collusion with Neo-Nazi's who have subsequently taken control of the Kiev Government are simply deluding themselves. Just look at who is currently in the Government and deny that the same people were in negotiations with top US/EU officials on the run up to the coup. People who no civilized administration should even entertain negotiating with. Nazi's are not acceptable political allies.

Ignore the spin - look at the facts.

Br Cornelius

It would appear that you are very much influenced by the spin offered by the sgcnews blogger that you quote. A single "opinion" that is not grounded in fact.

Let me help you with a few "inconvenient" facts about democracy:

1. Any party, that is NOT proscribed, can field candidates (that is why the National Front and British National Party are allowed to field candidates in the UK elections)
2. Some of these parties will not be considered "moral" or "desirable" but it is not YOUR decision whether or not they are allowed to stand because that would be undemocratic

From your "reference" and your own heavily biased outlook - you suggest that the Govt.of the Ukraine is little more than a Nazi" regime because it is composed of members from "Svobada". As usual you have failed to actually research the results for yourself...

... "Svoboda" (Oleh Tyahnybrook) gained a massive, truly staggering  1.16% of the popular vote in the Ukraine General Election in 2014.

So, I ask again, please back up your assertions that the Ukraine Government is nothing more that a bunch of Neo Nazi's


#19    Br Cornelius

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Posted 14 August 2014 - 11:58 AM

View Postquestionmark, on 14 August 2014 - 10:09 AM, said:

And there is ample evidence that Russia was supplying arms to rebels, whose leadership has been established to be in its majority Russian nationals.
And while Putin claimed that no Russian military was involved in the Crimea "uprising" on Victory Day he gave them medals for not being there, evidently.

So your point is?
My point is - don't start something and expect there to be no push back.

Br Cornelius

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#20    Br Cornelius

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Posted 14 August 2014 - 12:00 PM

View Postkeithisco, on 14 August 2014 - 11:28 AM, said:

It would appear that you are very much influenced by the spin offered by the sgcnews blogger that you quote. A single "opinion" that is not grounded in fact.

Let me help you with a few "inconvenient" facts about democracy:

1. Any party, that is NOT proscribed, can field candidates (that is why the National Front and British National Party are allowed to field candidates in the UK elections)
2. Some of these parties will not be considered "moral" or "desirable" but it is not YOUR decision whether or not they are allowed to stand because that would be undemocratic

From your "reference" and your own heavily biased outlook - you suggest that the Govt.of the Ukraine is little more than a Nazi" regime because it is composed of members from "Svobada". As usual you have failed to actually research the results for yourself...

... "Svoboda" (Oleh Tyahnybrook) gained a massive, truly staggering  1.16% of the popular vote in the Ukraine General Election in 2014.

So, I ask again, please back up your assertions that the Ukraine Government is nothing more that a bunch of Neo Nazi's
The Government sanctioned by the US and EU had five ministries controlled by Svoboda - that is what is significant here - the west sanctioned these postings and assisted them in coordinating the protests. Not bad for a party with just 1.16% of the popular vote.

Br Cornelius

Edited by Br Cornelius, 14 August 2014 - 12:09 PM.

I believe nothing, but I have my suspicions.

Robert Anton Wilson

#21    questionmark

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Posted 14 August 2014 - 12:04 PM

View PostBr Cornelius, on 14 August 2014 - 11:58 AM, said:

My point is - don't start something and expect there to be no push back.

Br Cornelius

Or in plain English: murder, kidnapping and holding for ransom is acceptable depending on who does it?

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#22    Br Cornelius

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Posted 14 August 2014 - 12:08 PM

View Postquestionmark, on 14 August 2014 - 12:04 PM, said:

Or in plain English: murder, kidnapping and holding for ransom is acceptable depending on who does it?
As is assassination by sniper it seems.

Br Cornelius

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#23    questionmark

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Posted 14 August 2014 - 12:16 PM

View PostBr Cornelius, on 14 August 2014 - 12:08 PM, said:

As is assassination by sniper it seems.

Br Cornelius

Wherein nobody , except RT, seems to have any evidence that the shooter were not paid for by Janukovich.

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#24    Br Cornelius

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Posted 14 August 2014 - 12:20 PM

View Postquestionmark, on 14 August 2014 - 12:16 PM, said:

Wherein nobody , except RT, seems to have any evidence that the shooter were not paid for by Janukovich.
If you watch the little vid I posted you will see that the Estonian government seems to believe that it was otherwise.

Br Cornelius

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#25    keithisco

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Posted 14 August 2014 - 01:07 PM

View PostBr Cornelius, on 14 August 2014 - 12:00 PM, said:

The Government sanctioned by the US and EU had five ministries controlled by Svoboda - that is what is significant here - the west sanctioned these postings and assisted them in coordinating the protests. Not bad for a party with just 1.16% of the popular vote.

Br Cornelius

You are really getting confused with the different elections. I wont embarrass you by telling accurately the number of Svoboda Ministers there are (or were) I will let you look that up for yourself.

Once you have performed that simple task you might like to tell us what Ministry's they are / were

One more point - you keep carping on about Governments being "sanctioned" by the US, EU... this is a misnomer only a Sovereign Nation can sanction its own Government through the Ballot box - whether said government was "recognised" by other Nations is something wholly different.

Need I also point out that the USA, and EU had serious reservations about the 2012 election with the independent International Election Observers noting widespread irregularities, and probable fraud. So, suggesting that the 2012 Government was a "Puppet of the West" is just another of your Straw Man arguments that does not stand the test of investigation and research


#26    stevewinn

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Posted 14 August 2014 - 04:25 PM

View Postkeithisco, on 14 August 2014 - 09:48 AM, said:

@Stevewinn:
1. There is no evidence to support your claim that the EU funded any such protest


Are we to believe that in the face of no paper trail that the EU didn't help fund the protests. It's well known America was funding them, did the EU just standby watching, the EU wouldn't have like the US coming over running the show in Europe's own back yard - the  EU wouldn't have liked that so would have at least matched the US spending. we can guarantee that. As for providing a link from a credible source its not going to happen. Were not exactly going to read on the EU balance sheet under outgoings €1million for Ukraine protest. your asking us to believe the EU is whiter than white and doesn't use funds as a tool for influence?

Quote

2. If Cathy Ashton was not welcome in the Ukraine then Yanukovych could simply have repealed her visa and entry to the country.


What about the Americans flying in Victoria Nunland. or even John McCain. All the big hitters where there. remember who they were backing at the time in the early days, a eurovision contestant and an ex-boxer. It's to simplistic to say he could have revoked their visas. why would he? at the time they were not conspiring against him. in fact Yanukovych's position wasn't under threat, they were still holding talks with him, It was in November Yanukovych postponed the signing. it was later that month the first protests started. before that Yanukovych held a number of meetings with the EU's Cathy Aston. one of the last meetings they had was in late January. Yanukovch wasn't removed from office until February. so why cancel visas. in early February the EU was still talking about keeping him in office until the next elections. corrupt or not, they hadn't totally given up on their man. by the time events turned nasty the Ukrainian government was in turmoil, events had over taken Yanukovych and he was on a downward slide.

Quote

4. This is entirely irrelevant to the argument. It would appear though, that Yanukovych had been embezzling from the Ukraine people for a very long time.


So what your saying is the EU had no idea their man was corrupt, or caught up in embezzlement. even though he'd been doing it for years. shocking at best naive at worst.

Quote

5. So a Prime Minister receiving massive backhanders from the Russian leader  to renege on his election promise does not constitute “making a move”?


I actually said, they were both using soft power. But at that time Russia hadn't made a move beyond that. the first scenes of violence came as a direct result of the EU backed protests. Russia was only greasing Yanukovych hand. Are you asking us to believe the EU never offered Yanukovych sweeteners at any point? or is that just a Russian trick?

Quote

6. If Yanukovych had kept his pledge to sign an EU Association Agreement (his sole platform for election) then yes, he would still be in power, until his robbery of the Ukraine Citizens came to light, then he would have faced exactly the same pressure to leave.

So you agree he would still be in power if he'd signed the agreement. So he was fine to remain President as long as he played ball. by that statement and the point made above - you seem to think the EU was totally unaware of his corruption and embezzlement. I find that hard to believe and don't believe it. the EU knew nothing of the goings on. c'mon. I find it astonishing you think the EU were unaware, as your statement suggests - by stating once they find out he'd be removed.

Quote

As a general observation: Putin can cut off gas and oil supplies whenever he like because western stockpiles are all at record highs - enough to get through the harshest of winters - and the supply of LNG and LPG is at an all time high from Asia which has driven prices down. The pipeline to Ukraine is not a simple "one - way" only system. It can receive gas and oil from it's surrounding friendly neighbours at an equally low cost, and there are a number of would - be suppliers queuing up to offload their goods immediately.

The truth is that Putin's threat to cut off oil and gas has backfired spectacularly - expecting to actually lose this income stream (because the nations west of Russia don't need it) he has had to make a disastrous deal with China to export oil and gas at just a fraction above production costs.

So basically, there is nothing Putin can threaten in terms of sanctions that can have any real effect at all - all he can do is to "cut off his nose to spite his face".

It was a Do or Die scenario, the very fact its do or die would Putin worry if it backfired spectacularly. If he was going down he'd take everyone with him, sink the whole ship. seen in the News again to day. fears for the German economy. and the Eurozone. Putin mightn't have to do anything except sit back and watch. as the sanctions placed by Germany backfire on Germany followed by the Eurozone. Italy is already back in recession for the third time. It's a good job Spain is seeing growth.

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#27    keithisco

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Posted 14 August 2014 - 05:11 PM

View Poststevewinn, on 14 August 2014 - 04:25 PM, said:

[/color][/size]

Are we to believe that in the face of no paper trail that the EU didn't help fund the protests. It's well known America was funding them, did the EU just standby watching, the EU wouldn't have like the US coming over running the show in Europe's own back yard - the  EU wouldn't have liked that so would have at least matched the US spending. we can guarantee that. As for providing a link from a credible source its not going to happen. Were not exactly going to read on the EU balance sheet under outgoings €1million for Ukraine protest. your asking us to believe the EU is whiter than white and doesn't use funds as a tool for influence?

[/color]

What about the Americans flying in Victoria Nunland. or even John McCain. All the big hitters where there. remember who they were backing at the time in the early days, a eurovision contestant and an ex-boxer. It's to simplistic to say he could have revoked their visas. why would he? at the time they were not conspiring against him. in fact Yanukovych's position wasn't under threat, they were still holding talks with him, It was in November Yanukovych postponed the signing. it was later that month the first protests started. before that Yanukovych held a number of meetings with the EU's Cathy Aston. one of the last meetings they had was in late January. Yanukovch wasn't removed from office until February. so why cancel visas. in early February the EU was still talking about keeping him in office until the next elections. corrupt or not, they hadn't totally given up on their man. by the time events turned nasty the Ukrainian government was in turmoil, events had over taken Yanukovych and he was on a downward slide.



So what your saying is the EU had no idea their man was corrupt, or caught up in embezzlement. even though he'd been doing it for years. shocking at best naive at worst.

[/color]

[size=4]I actually said, they were both using soft power. But at that time Russia hadn't made a move beyond that. the first scenes of violence came as a direct result of the EU backed protests. Russia was only greasing Yanukovych hand. Are you asking us to believe the EU never offered Yanukovych sweeteners at any point? or is that just a Russian trick?



So you agree he would still be in power if he'd signed the agreement. So he was fine to remain President as long as he played ball. by that statement and the point made above - you seem to think the EU was totally unaware of his corruption and embezzlement. I find that hard to believe and don't believe it. the EU knew nothing of the goings on. c'mon. I find it astonishing you think the EU were unaware, as your statement suggests - by stating once they find out he'd be removed.



It was a Do or Die scenario, the very fact its do or die would Putin worry if it backfired spectacularly. If he was going down he'd take everyone with him, sink the whole ship. seen in the News again to day. fears for the German economy. and the Eurozone. Putin mightn't have to do anything except sit back and watch. as the sanctions placed by Germany backfire on Germany followed by the Eurozone. Italy is already back in recession for the third time. It's a good job Spain is seeing growth.
Steve: you have shown nothing whatsoever to support your claims.

Yes he would have remained in office whilst pursuing the Ukrainian Electorates desire for closer EU Links. He UNILATERALLY (and lets not forget that) dumped the EU and forged ahead with a co-operation pact with Russia - he did not have a mandate to do that, it was against the express wishes of the electorate hence the Maidan protests.
The man ran away just one day after claiming to have made an agreement with the opposition parties.

Cathy Ashton turned up on 11 Dec 2013 - so Yanukovych could certainly have repealed visa's as he was already under incredible pressure to resign.

Don't believe everything you might read about Spain turning an economic corner - of the new jobs created in the last 3 months 93% were temporary, seasonal jobs. Temporary employers are hiring more than normal because the labour has become very cheap - end of September = realistic employment figures.

Edited by keithisco, 14 August 2014 - 05:32 PM.


#28    stevewinn

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Posted 14 August 2014 - 06:21 PM

View Postkeithisco, on 14 August 2014 - 05:11 PM, said:

Steve: you have shown nothing whatsoever to support your claims.

Yes he would have remained in office whilst pursuing the Ukrainian Electorates desire for closer EU Links. He UNILATERALLY (and lets not forget that) dumped the EU and forged ahead with a co-operation pact with Russia - he did not have a mandate to do that, it was against the express wishes of the electorate hence the.
The man ran away just one day after claiming to have made an agreement with the opposition parties.

Cathy Ashton turned up on 11 Dec 2013 - so Yanukovych could certainly have repealed visa's as he was already under incredible pressure to resign.

What claims am i not supporting? The EU along with Cathy Aston was in Ukraine early November and  i don't mean with the protesters, but with Yanukovych. she also held a meeting with him in January 2014. and as late as February 5th 2014. just 17 days before being ousted. nice picture of the pair. so again why would Yanukovych repeal visas? when their still shaking hands and on amicable terms? thinking a deal can be done.

Posted Image
picture taken on 5th February 2014. 17 days before being ousted.

http://ec.europa.eu/...cfm?ref=I086143


I have a feeling were going to end up going in circles. instead i've taken the time to highlight the bigger picture and what led up to events. a good snap shot of events - i hope those interested take the time to read it and watch the reports. it'll save going over old ground again and again.

Quote


Page last updated at 16:48 GMT, Thursday, 1 January 2009
Russia shuts off gas to Ukraine
http://news.bbc.co.u...ope/7806870.stm

11 October 2011 Last updated at 16:59
Viewpoint: Ukraine, the EU and Tymoshenko
http://www.bbc.co.uk...europe-15261486


19 December 2012 Last updated at 12:15
Russia-Ukraine talks postponed
http://www.bbc.co.uk...europe-20781950


4 January 2013 Last updated at 14:03
Ukraine leader cautious on Russian customs union plans
http://www.bbc.co.uk...europe-20909041

5 September 2013 Last updated at 18:51
Armenia rift over trade deal fuels EU-Russia tension
http://www.bbc.co.uk...europe-23975951

15 October 2013 Last updated at 16:42
EU embrace of Ukraine fuels Russia tensions
http://www.bbc.co.uk...europe-24532292

15 October 2013 Last updated at 16:42
EU embrace of Ukraine fuels Russia tensions
http://www.bbc.co.uk...europe-24532292

21 November 2013 Last updated at 22:01
Ukraine suspends preparations for EU trade agreement
http://www.bbc.co.uk...europe-25032275

Ukraine throws EU's 'Eastern Partnership' into doubt
http://www.bbc.co.uk...europe-25039630

25 November 2013 Last updated at 20:02
Ukraine president firm over EU 'U-turn' amid protests
http://www.bbc.co.uk...europe-25087162


26 November 2013 Last updated at 06:13
Ukraine wooed by rival suitors
http://www.bbc.co.uk...europe-25095672


28 November 2013 Last updated at 09:33.
Ukraine deal overshadows EU talks
http://www.bbc.co.uk...europe-25133721

29 November 2013 Last updated at 11:05EU
summit shows no sign of reviving Ukraine deal
http://www.bbc.co.uk...europe-25134682




.

Edited by stevewinn, 14 August 2014 - 06:24 PM.

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#29    keithisco

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Posted 14 August 2014 - 07:25 PM

View Poststevewinn, on 14 August 2014 - 06:21 PM, said:

What claims am i not supporting? The EU along with Cathy Aston was in Ukraine early November and  i don't mean with the protesters, but with Yanukovych. she also held a meeting with him in January 2014. and as late as February 5th 2014. just 17 days before being ousted. nice picture of the pair. so again why would Yanukovych repeal visas? when their still shaking hands and on amicable terms? thinking a deal can be done.


picture taken on 5th February 2014. 17 days before being ousted.

http://ec.europa.eu/...cfm?ref=I086143


I have a feeling were going to end up going in circles. instead i've taken the time to highlight the bigger picture and what led up to events. a good snap shot of events - i hope those interested take the time to read it and watch the reports. it'll save going over old ground again and again.


.
Having spent too much of my life going over your interminable links I can say - without reservation - that NONE of them support your views.

The only thing that they do support is that Yanukovych, unilaterally and with NO SUPPORT WHATSOEVER, decided to change the face of Ukrainian Foreign Policy to suit his own larcenous activities. Having fled with much of his stolen fortune intact, what do you hear from him now? Nothing


#30    Otto von Pickelhaube

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Posted 14 August 2014 - 07:26 PM

View Postquestionmark, on 14 August 2014 - 12:16 PM, said:

Wherein nobody , except RT, seems to have any evidence that the shooter were not paid for by Janukovich.
What, even the neo-Nazi elements? Svodoba, aren't they called? They were paid by the ex Tyrant as well? Or wouldn't they possibly involve themselves in anything so underhand, only the Russkies would do that. Is there a rolleyes smilie here? :rolleyes:

If, as it seems, we are in the process of becoming a totalitarian society in which the state apparatus is all-powerful, the ethics most important for the survival of the true, free, human individual would be: cheat, lie, evade, fake it, be elsewhere, forge documents, build improved electronic gadgets in your garage that’ll outwit the gadgets used by the authorities.

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