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Germany Severing Profitable Ties to Russia


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#31    Helen of Annoy

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Posted 14 August 2014 - 07:42 PM

View PostAdmiral Rhubarb, on 14 August 2014 - 07:26 PM, said:

What, even the neo-Nazi elements? Svodoba, aren't they called? They were paid by the ex Tyrant as well? Or wouldn't they possibly involve themselves in anything so underhand, only the Russkies would do that. Is there a rolleyes smilie here? :rolleyes:
Why are you commenting if you can’t even copy the name right?
Svoboda.
Very simple. It means Freedom and the lack of freedom is too often the reason why people sometimes go to the extreme.

Spodobo jedna :lol: (mild, humorous, not really an insult)


Some of the most extreme extremists were pacified by Ukrainian forces, so I leave it to you to guess who was their actual boss.

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#32    stevewinn

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Posted 14 August 2014 - 07:46 PM

View Postkeithisco, on 14 August 2014 - 07:25 PM, said:

Having spent too much of my life going over your interminable links I can say - without reservation - that NONE of them support your views.

The only thing that they do support is that Yanukovych, unilaterally and with NO SUPPORT WHATSOEVER, decided to change the face of Ukrainian Foreign Policy to suit his own larcenous activities. Having fled with much of his stolen fortune intact, what do you hear from him now? Nothing

expand on it Keith what's my view.

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#33    keithisco

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Posted 14 August 2014 - 08:52 PM

View Poststevewinn, on 14 August 2014 - 07:46 PM, said:

expand on it Keith what's my view.
This getting tedious Steve:

1. It would appear that you believe that the EU is entirely responsible for all of the events in Ukraine.
2. You appear to believe that this sovereign Nation can be manipulated like a "puppet".
3. You appear to believe that the Democratically Elected Govt. is actually only in place by sanction of the EU / USA
4. You appear to believe that the popular uprising against the former PM was all orchestrated and funded by the EU / USA, and deny the right of the Ukraine people to actually instigate peaceful - the demand for a new set of elections

I think that covers what your views appear to be... let me know if I am wrong.


#34    questionmark

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Posted 14 August 2014 - 08:54 PM

View Postkeithisco, on 14 August 2014 - 08:52 PM, said:

This getting tedious Steve:

1. It would appear that you believe that the EU is entirely responsible for all of the events in Ukraine.
2. You appear to believe that this sovereign Nation can be manipulated like a "puppet".
3. You appear to believe that the Democratically Elected Govt. is actually only in place by sanction of the EU / USA
4. You appear to believe that the popular uprising against the former PM was all orchestrated and funded by the EU / USA, and deny the right of the Ukraine people to actually instigate peaceful - the demand for a new set of elections

I think that covers what your views appear to be... let me know if I am wrong.

As long as 1. applies Steve will let you have the other three as good faith measure, I'd venture to say....

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#35    Br Cornelius

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Posted 15 August 2014 - 06:52 AM

View PostHelen of Annoy, on 14 August 2014 - 07:42 PM, said:

Why are you commenting if you can’t even copy the name right?
Svoboda.
Very simple. It means Freedom and the lack of freedom is too often the reason why people sometimes go to the extreme.

Spodobo jedna :lol: (mild, humorous, not really an insult)


Some of the most extreme extremists were pacified by Ukrainian forces, so I leave it to you to guess who was their actual boss.
You can call yourself the little fluffy bunnies if you like, but if your manifesto and creed are Nazi that don't change a thing.

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#36    Valdemar the Great

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Posted 15 August 2014 - 07:18 AM

View PostHelen of Annoy, on 14 August 2014 - 07:42 PM, said:

Why are you commenting if you can’t even copy the name right?
Svoboda.
Very simple. It means Freedom and the lack of freedom is too often the reason why people sometimes go to the extreme.


Boy, that can cover a whole range of sins, can't it. No attempt to protest that they're not extreme right wing, note, and no apparent criticism of them for that. So they were suffering so harshly under the iron heel of the Yanukovich dictatorship that it was completely understandable that they'd turn to the far-right?

Quote

Some of the most extreme extremists were pacified by Ukrainian forces, so I leave it to you to guess who was their actual boss
The CIA, you mean, realizing that being seen to support neo-Nazis might be rather bad PR?

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#37    keithisco

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Posted 15 August 2014 - 08:28 AM

View PostBr Cornelius, on 15 August 2014 - 06:52 AM, said:

You can call yourself the little fluffy bunnies if you like, but if your manifesto and creed are Nazi that don't change a thing.

Br Cornelius
You haven't actually read the Svoboda manifesto have you  ***NO****.
You are fixated on anyone not agreeing with your point of view, as being neo - Nazis, or plain Nazi's.
You really take Godwinism to new extremes, and this makes your posts pretty irrelevant because they lack any factual basis, you do not independently research any of the "facts" you present (relying on extremely biased bloggers and quoting them verbatim) as I have had to point up your errors time and again.


#38    keithisco

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Posted 15 August 2014 - 08:34 AM

View PostAdmiral Rhubarb, on 15 August 2014 - 07:18 AM, said:

Boy, that can cover a whole range of sins, can't it. No attempt to protest that they're not extreme right wing, note, and no apparent criticism of them for that. So they were suffering so harshly under the iron heel of the Yanukovich dictatorship that it was completely understandable that they'd turn to the far-right?


The CIA, you mean, realizing that being seen to support neo-Nazis might be rather bad PR?

Your responses are becoming fatuous in the extreme - I understand exactly what Helen is saying, yet you pretend she is saying something else. The Ukraine people did not "turn to the extreme right" . They protested a Failed and corrupt PM who decided, all by himself, to change the direction that a future Ukraine would take - against the wishes of the Ukraine Electorate as expressed in the 2012 General Elections.

You are also labouring under the false premise (exhorting Godwinism again) that the Ukraine Electorate are all neo - Nazi.

Edited by keithisco, 15 August 2014 - 08:34 AM.


#39    stevewinn

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Posted 15 August 2014 - 03:56 PM

View Postkeithisco, on 14 August 2014 - 08:52 PM, said:

This getting tedious Steve:

1. It would appear that you believe that the EU is entirely responsible for all of the events in Ukraine.
2. You appear to believe that this sovereign Nation can be manipulated like a "puppet".
3. You appear to believe that the Democratically Elected Govt. is actually only in place by sanction of the EU / USA
4. You appear to believe that the popular uprising against the former PM was all orchestrated and funded by the EU / USA, and deny the right of the Ukraine people to actually instigate peaceful - the demand for a new set of elections

I think that covers what your views appear to be... let me know if I am wrong.

It's not a case of I Believe, So in reply and in a word NO i do NOT believe the EU is entirely responsible for all of the events in Ukraine. but this is contrast to yourself who seems to believe all the events in Ukraine are down to Russia.

The fact of the matter is both the EU and Russia are to blame, the tug of war with the pair over Ukraine as been going on for at least a decade or more. one minute Ukraine is leaning towards Russia then swings back towards Europe. and all we are witnessing is events coming to ahead.

The EU is not entirely to blame but it has a lot to answer for, Their - EU eastern partnership programme was always going to antagonise Russia, just look at the countries within that program. Armenia, Azerbaijan, Belarus, Georgia, the Republic of Moldova and Ukraine all ex soviet states - the EU is playing in Russia's backyard. Ukraine within that group was seen as the jewel in the crown. But did people think Russia was just going to sit on its hands while the EU in its ill conceived expansion policy gobbled up its former states. NO was, and still is the answer. So the political elite in the EU must have analysed events and decided the risk versus reward was worth it, and now we are witnessing the fallout. They knew sticking their nose in the Hive, they were going to get more than a nose full of Honey.

What is clear Ukraine is not politically strong enough and throughout has been manipulated from both sides, Both the EU and Russia. The EU underestimated Russia's response. never had a coherent policy of what to do in the event Russian aggression. they failed on Ukrainian foreign and domestic policy, The EU failed to provide enough (bribe) money which allowed Russia to move in and offer more (bribe) money.

When the Ukrainian President suspended the signing of the EU association agreement, the  EU should have bided their time because the possibility existed for Ukraine to sign the agreement in five years time (2019). in which time the EU could have consolidated its position bided its time, would have been in a stronger position politically and economically - currently with the Eurozone still recovering from recession and with growth forecast - the EU as got the timing all wrong. - in five years time Europe would have been in a strong position compared to Russia, currently and before this crisis the Russian economy was and, is hovering just above recession and likely to enter recession before the years end, - Its highly likely in five years time Russia would be just emerging from four years of recession - Putin would be in trouble domestically as his approval rating dropped, (due to recession) coupled with the fact Putins term in office would be coming to a end, 2018. The second chance for Ukraine to sign the agreement with the EU would be in 2019 a year after Putins gone. Russia would be weaker, a new leader and economy in turmoil or recovering from recession. Russia's influence and ability to react limited, So why not wait? time was on the EU's side and so were events. But No, the EU made a pigs ear out of it, and the use of sanctions against Russian in a time when europes economy isn't strong enough. in fact its getting weaker. If these sanctions backfire then trouble really is on the horizon.

It's A-Level politics.

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#40    Br Cornelius

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Posted 15 August 2014 - 04:20 PM

View Postkeithisco, on 15 August 2014 - 08:28 AM, said:

You haven't actually read the Svoboda manifesto have you  ***NO****.
You are fixated on anyone not agreeing with your point of view, as being neo - Nazis, or plain Nazi's.
You really take Godwinism to new extremes, and this makes your posts pretty irrelevant because they lack any factual basis, you do not independently research any of the "facts" you present (relying on extremely biased bloggers and quoting them verbatim) as I have had to point up your errors time and again.
Read the nice little Wiki description of them - they are as neo-nazi as it come - and it has nothing to do with my personal politics its an observation of the words they speak the origins in history and their actions.
That really is a sad retort Keith.

Quote

In February 2004, the arrival of Oleh Tyahnybok as party leader led a significant change in moderating the party's image.[51] Then still the Social-National Party of Ukraine, it changed its name to the All-Ukrainian Union "Svoboda",[2] and abandoned the "I + N" ("Idea Natsii" Ukrainian "idea of a nation") Wolfsangel logo (a symbol popular among neo-Nazi groups)[2][38] with a three-fingered hand reminiscent of the 'Tryzub' pro-independence gesture of the late 1980s.[38] Svoboda also pushed neo-Nazi and other radical groups out the party,[108] distancing itself from its neofascist past while retaining the support of extreme nationalists.[51]
Olexiy Haran, a political science professor at the Kyiv-Mohyla Academy, says “There is a lot of misunderstanding surrounding Svoboda" and that the party is not fascist, but radical.[109] Ihor Kolomoyskyi, president of the United Jewish Community of Ukraine, stated in 2010 that the party has clearly shifted from the far-right to the center.[110]
Political scientist Andreas Umland predicted the party would continue to become more moderate over time, and that "there's a belief that Svoboda will change, once in the Verkhovna Rada, and that they may become proper national democrats."[53] Since then, the party has gained seats in parliament and has net over 10% of the national vote in the 2012 parliamentary elections. The US ambassador in Kiev, Geoffrey Pyatt, said in 2014 that he had been "positively impressed" by Svoboda's evolution in opposition and by its behavior in parliament. "They have demonstrated their democratic bona fides," the ambassador asserted.[101] Alexander J. Motyl argues that Svoboda's brand of nationalism "has significantly diminished during, and possibly as a result of, the Euro Revolution."[111]
http://en.wikipedia....olitical_party)

A party which has historically used a modified swastica and the name Social-nationalists (a reversed national socialist) has got to be considered highly suspect. It moderated its image to make itself more palatable but scratch the surface and there is still the stench of Nazi rising.

Newsnight investigated the fascistic elements of the new government:


Who is been wilfully ignorant here Keith ? your sort of excusing of these elements is a danger to us all.


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Edited by Br Cornelius, 15 August 2014 - 04:45 PM.

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#41    Helen of Annoy

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Posted 15 August 2014 - 04:55 PM

Be careful what you wish for, comrade commissar, for it may come true.

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#42    keithisco

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Posted 15 August 2014 - 04:58 PM

View PostBr Cornelius, on 15 August 2014 - 04:20 PM, said:

Read the nice little Wiki description of them - they are as neo-nazi asd it come - and it has nothing bto do with my personal politics its an observation of the words they speak the origins in history and their actions.
That really is a sad retort Keith.


http://en.wikipedia....olitical_party)

A party which has historically used a modified swastica and the name Social-nationalists (a reversed national socialist) has got to be considered highly suspect. It moderated its image to make itself more palatable but scratch the surface and there is still the stench of Nazi rising.

Who is been wilfully ignorant here Keith ?


Br Cornelius

Once again you are revealing the paucity of your research to back up your personal position. The Swastika (revised or otherwise) is nothing to do with todays party (3 fingers is the emblem). The name Social - Nationalists has been extinct for years - and your constant reference to NAZI'sm is of course a Godwin fallacy because you mistakenly believe that everyone else is not willing to perform independent research beyond Wiki (which also does not support your claim that they are a Neo - Nazi Party by the way) and will simply accept your word for it. Sophistication in your posting is not one of your fortes Br, you simply regurgitate easily refuted sources.

Why are you even trying to turn the situation in Ukraine to be entirely about a Party that only won 1.16% of the Popular Vote. Shouldn't you really be focussing on the aspirations of the 98.84% of the people who did not vote for this party, the electorate that actually voted for the government???

You seriously need to get some true perspective on the situation otherwise it is YOU who is the "Puppet" of Russian expansionism, annointing Putin's feet and absolving him of all blame.

Edited by keithisco, 15 August 2014 - 04:59 PM.


#43    Br Cornelius

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Posted 15 August 2014 - 04:59 PM

View PostHelen of Annoy, on 15 August 2014 - 04:55 PM, said:

Be careful what you wish for, comrade commissar, for it may come true.
It has come true - the facists are in substantial control of the Kiev Government. We can thank, at least in part, the EU and the US for that state of affairs.

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#44    Br Cornelius

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Posted 15 August 2014 - 05:02 PM

View Postkeithisco, on 15 August 2014 - 04:58 PM, said:

Once again you are revealing the paucity of your research to back up your personal position. The Swastika (revised or otherwise) is nothing to do with todays party (3 fingers is the emblem). The name Social - Nationalists has been extinct for years - and your constant reference to NAZI'sm is of course a Godwin fallacy because you mistakenly believe that everyone else is not willing to perform independent research beyond Wiki (which also does not support your claim that they are a Neo - Nazi Party by the way) and will simply accept your word for it. Sophistication in your posting is not one of your fortes Br, you simply regurgitate easily refuted sources.

Why are you even trying to turn the situation in Ukraine to be entirely about a Party that only won 1.16% of the Popular Vote. Shouldn't you really be focussing on the aspirations of the 98.84% of the people who did not vote for this party, the electorate that actually voted for the government???

You seriously need to get some true perspective on the situation otherwise it is YOU who is the "Puppet" of Russian expansionism, annointing Putin's feet and absolving him of all blame.
What I am pointing out is that this ex-nazi party (as you would like to characturize them as) gained subnstantially more influence in kiev than their pausity of votes warrant. So they cleaned their public image up a bit, so did the NF in Britain before they eventually imploded. Didn't make then the good guys. Meanwhile Ukraine has taken a major lurch to the far-right and there will be very bad consequences as a result.

Stop throwing around Godwins law - I am pointing out the reality not making false accusations.

And Keith neither I or Steve have denied the dirty hands of Putins Russia, but the situation is as bad as it is because the West started pumping money into the country to encourage regime change. This could easily escalate into the next major European war and the EU will have to take its fair share of the blame.

Br Cornelius

Edited by Br Cornelius, 15 August 2014 - 05:07 PM.

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#45    keithisco

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Posted 15 August 2014 - 05:07 PM

View Poststevewinn, on 15 August 2014 - 03:56 PM, said:

It's not a case of I Believe, So in reply and in a word NO i do NOT believe the EU is entirely responsible for all of the events in Ukraine. but this is contrast to yourself who seems to believe all the events in Ukraine are down to Russia.

The fact of the matter is both the EU and Russia are to blame, the tug of war with the pair over Ukraine as been going on for at least a decade or more. one minute Ukraine is leaning towards Russia then swings back towards Europe. and all we are witnessing is events coming to ahead.

The EU is not entirely to blame but it has a lot to answer for, Their - EU eastern partnership programme was always going to antagonise Russia, just look at the countries within that program. Armenia, Azerbaijan, Belarus, Georgia, the Republic of Moldova and Ukraine all ex soviet states - the EU is playing in Russia's backyard. Ukraine within that group was seen as the jewel in the crown. But did people think Russia was just going to sit on its hands while the EU in its ill conceived expansion policy gobbled up its former states. NO was, and still is the answer. So the political elite in the EU must have analysed events and decided the risk versus reward was worth it, and now we are witnessing the fallout. They knew sticking their nose in the Hive, they were going to get more than a nose full of Honey.

What is clear Ukraine is not politically strong enough and throughout has been manipulated from both sides, Both the EU and Russia. The EU underestimated Russia's response. never had a coherent policy of what to do in the event Russian aggression. they failed on Ukrainian foreign and domestic policy, The EU failed to provide enough (bribe) money which allowed Russia to move in and offer more (bribe) money.

When the Ukrainian President suspended the signing of the EU association agreement, the  EU should have bided their time because the possibility existed for Ukraine to sign the agreement in five years time (2019). in which time the EU could have consolidated its position bided its time, would have been in a stronger position politically and economically - currently with the Eurozone still recovering from recession and with growth forecast - the EU as got the timing all wrong. - in five years time Europe would have been in a strong position compared to Russia, currently and before this crisis the Russian economy was and, is hovering just above recession and likely to enter recession before the years end, - Its highly likely in five years time Russia would be just emerging from four years of recession - Putin would be in trouble domestically as his approval rating dropped, (due to recession) coupled with the fact Putins term in office would be coming to a end, 2018. The second chance for Ukraine to sign the agreement with the EU would be in 2019 a year after Putins gone. Russia would be weaker, a new leader and economy in turmoil or recovering from recession. Russia's influence and ability to react limited, So why not wait? time was on the EU's side and so were events. But No, the EU made a pigs ear out of it, and the use of sanctions against Russian in a time when europes economy isn't strong enough. in fact its getting weaker. If these sanctions backfire then trouble really is on the horizon.

It's A-Level politics.

Simply stated Steve, the Ukraine is a Sovereign nation. If there is a popular uprising against a govt that fails to meet the electorate's expectations then that is their right.
If the PM on one day announces that he has come to a compromise with the opposition leaders (both Political and Popular) only to run away from his post the very next day then impeachment and removal from office is the obvious consequence.
End of the day it is very much an internal situation - no-one has to accept the EU's advances, no - one has to accept the Russian Federations advances, but it was, and remains historically true, that Ukraine wanted to re-assert it's position within the European sphere of influence. It was just 1 MAN that thought otherwise, and the Ukraine would never accept that situation again.





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