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Scholarly and open treatment of UFOs / UAPs


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#1    Lotharson

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Posted 25 August 2014 - 09:02 PM

Hello folks, in the following post I introduce myself and am interested in profound, respectful and mutually enriching discussions concerning paranormal phenomena, especially UAP (Unidentified Atmospheric Phenomena) or UFO.
Shards of Magonia: on hallucinations, UFOs and paralell worlds
I want to approach such topics in a responsible and scholarly manner and am wary to avoid both the pitfalls of the "True Believers" and of the "Debunkers" who are all too often two sides of the same coin.

I'm a strong believer in the principle of mutual respect and hope we'll enjoy fruitful exchanges :-)

Lovely greetings from a Germanic Frenchman living in England.

"The greatest mystery is not the sighting of an alleged ghost or UFO but the sheer existence of our consciousness"

Lotharson http://lotharlorraine.wordpress.com/

#2    Kenemet

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Posted 25 August 2014 - 10:58 PM

I would disagree with your statement that a UFO is "a flying object whose existence we cannot account for with our current public knowledge."

The statement would be correct if you said "whose existence THE OBSERVER cannot account for..."

I couldn't identify one plane from another, and some of the odd planes (known to spy plane aficionados) I would mark as 'something I can't identify that I see flying.'

I take lots of photos of birds and wildlife, and have quite a few "UFO" photos that are just birds streaking through the frame.  I can often tell what size and what kind of bird it was -- and yet I've had people insist those birds are UFOs.  Same with medieval paintings of halos and glories (where there's written documentation that this is what they are and what they represent) -- those who don't know the subject are more likely to believe "UFO."

So, to say that our knowledge can't identify it is incorrect.  It's correct to say that the observer can't (or won't) identify it.


#3    lost_shaman

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Posted 26 August 2014 - 12:11 AM

Quote

A UFO is the reported sighting of an object or light seen in the sky or on land, whose appearance, trajectory, actions, motions, lights, and colors do not have a logical, conventional, or natural explanation, and which cannot be explained, not only by the original witness, but by scientists or technical experts who try to make a common sense identification after examining the evidence.

Note the part I've place in Bold.

Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. And if you gaze long enough into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you. - Friedrich Nietzsche

#4    crypto-ufologist

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Posted 26 August 2014 - 02:43 AM

View PostLotharson, on 25 August 2014 - 09:02 PM, said:

Hello folks, in the following post I introduce myself and am interested in profound, respectful and mutually enriching discussions concerning paranormal phenomena, especially UAP (Unidentified Atmospheric Phenomena) or UFO.
Shards of Magonia: on hallucinations, UFOs and paralell worlds
I want to approach such topics in a responsible and scholarly manner and am wary to avoid both the pitfalls of the "True Believers" and of the "Debunkers" who are all too often two sides of the same coin.

I'm a strong believer in the principle of mutual respect and hope we'll enjoy fruitful exchanges :-)

Lovely greetings from a Germanic Frenchman living in England.

Hi, I love your idea but you're in the wrong place if you expect any kind of even handed discussion here. I'm presently writing an ebook on the subject and with your scientific expertise, your opinion on the basic idea would be greatly appreciated. I've developed the idea considerably and have a 30 year Journal of UFO and Bizarre Humanoid sightings as data with which I can wrap my ideas around. See here Opinion: Giant Insects Could be Real



#5    mister

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Posted 26 August 2014 - 06:17 AM

View PostLotharson, on 25 August 2014 - 09:02 PM, said:

Hello folks, in the following post I introduce myself and am interested in profound, respectful and mutually enriching discussions concerning paranormal phenomena, especially UAP (Unidentified Atmospheric Phenomena) or UFO.
Shards of Magonia: on hallucinations, UFOs and paralell worlds
I want to approach such topics in a responsible and scholarly manner and am wary to avoid both the pitfalls of the "True Believers" and of the "Debunkers" who are all too often two sides of the same coin.

I'm a strong believer in the principle of mutual respect and hope we'll enjoy fruitful exchanges :-)

Lovely greetings from a Germanic Frenchman living in England.

Wats up. I also enjoy discussing this subject. I am very aware about what I can or cannot prove, but I see nothing wrong with speculating.

What exactly would you like to discuss? UFO's, UAP, ETH, or specific cases?


#6    psyche101

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Posted 26 August 2014 - 07:15 AM

View Postcrypto-ufologist, on 26 August 2014 - 02:43 AM, said:

Hi, I love your idea but you're in the wrong place if you expect any kind of even handed discussion here. I'm presently writing an ebook on the subject and with your scientific expertise, your opinion on the basic idea would be greatly appreciated. I've developed the idea considerably and have a 30 year Journal of UFO and Bizarre Humanoid sightings as data with which I can wrap my ideas around. See here Opinion: Giant Insects Could be Real


You mean you are in the wrong place if you are seeking self validation. The link he provided says he is interested in open skeptisism. We deal in critical thinking here, so it seems he is in the right place after all.

Things are what they are. - Me Reality can't be debunked. That's the beauty of it. - Capeo If I have seen further it is by standing on the shoulders of giants. - Sir Isaac Newton Let me repeat the lesson learned from the Sturrock scientific review panel: Pack up your old data and forget it. Ufology needs new data, new cases, new rigorous and scientific methodologies if it hopes ever to get out of its pit. - Ed Stewart Youtube is the last refuge of the ignorant and is more often used for disinformation than genuine research.  There is a REASON for PEER REVIEW... - Chrlzs Nothing is inexplicable, just unexplained. - Dr Who

#7    psyche101

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Posted 26 August 2014 - 07:17 AM

View PostLotharson, on 25 August 2014 - 09:02 PM, said:

Hello folks, in the following post I introduce myself and am interested in profound, respectful and mutually enriching discussions concerning paranormal phenomena, especially UAP (Unidentified Atmospheric Phenomena) or UFO.
Shards of Magonia: on hallucinations, UFOs and paralell worlds
I want to approach such topics in a responsible and scholarly manner and am wary to avoid both the pitfalls of the "True Believers" and of the "Debunkers" who are all too often two sides of the same coin.

I'm a strong believer in the principle of mutual respect and hope we'll enjoy fruitful exchanges :-)

Lovely greetings from a Germanic Frenchman living in England.

I have the same question mister does. What aspect do you wish to look at in depth? I note your site says:

"Extraordinary claims demand extraordinary evidence."
But are UFOs really "extraordinary", i.e. extremely unlikely to begin with?



What exactly do you mean by that? Do you feel that UFO's are unlikely to be resolved at all? I do not think they are extremely unlikely when considering natural phenomena, they seem a requirement.

Things are what they are. - Me Reality can't be debunked. That's the beauty of it. - Capeo If I have seen further it is by standing on the shoulders of giants. - Sir Isaac Newton Let me repeat the lesson learned from the Sturrock scientific review panel: Pack up your old data and forget it. Ufology needs new data, new cases, new rigorous and scientific methodologies if it hopes ever to get out of its pit. - Ed Stewart Youtube is the last refuge of the ignorant and is more often used for disinformation than genuine research.  There is a REASON for PEER REVIEW... - Chrlzs Nothing is inexplicable, just unexplained. - Dr Who

#8    lost_shaman

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Posted 26 August 2014 - 09:10 AM

View Postpsyche101, on 26 August 2014 - 07:17 AM, said:



I have the same question mister does. What aspect do you wish to look at in depth? I note your site says:

"Extraordinary claims demand extraordinary evidence."
But are UFOs really "extraordinary", i.e. extremely unlikely to begin with?



What exactly do you mean by that? Do you feel that UFO's are unlikely to be resolved at all? I do not think they are extremely unlikely when considering natural phenomena, they seem a requirement.

Seems straight forward to me Psyche. If people see ufos, things that defy explaination, why do we need extraodinary evidence for these sightings?

Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. And if you gaze long enough into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you. - Friedrich Nietzsche

#9    Sir Wearer of Hats

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Posted 26 August 2014 - 09:27 AM

View Postcrypto-ufologist, on 26 August 2014 - 02:43 AM, said:

Hi, I love your idea but you're in the wrong place if you expect any kind of even handed discussion here. I'm presently writing an ebook on the subject and with your scientific expertise, your opinion on the basic idea would be greatly appreciated. I've developed the idea considerably and have a 30 year Journal of UFO and Bizarre Humanoid sightings as data with which I can wrap my ideas around. See here Opinion: Giant Insects Could be Real

The only thing stopping giant insects, IIRC, are the type of lung arrangement all known insects have.

I must not fear. Fear is the Mind-Killer. It is the little death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear.
I will permit it to pass over me and to move through me. And when it is gone I will turn the inner eye to see it's path.
When the fear is gone, there will be nothing.
Only I will remain.

#10    crypto-ufologist

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Posted 26 August 2014 - 11:06 AM

View PostSir Wearer of Hats, on 26 August 2014 - 09:27 AM, said:

The only thing stopping giant insects, IIRC, are the type of lung arrangement all known insects have.

I'm saying that gas exchange could take place through an all-the-way-through trachea adaptation. Not only would this increase efficiency from the currently known insect dead-end trachea tubes but also allow for the evolution of a type of inbuilt 'jet-propulsion'. It's only the speed of muscle contractions that needs to be extremely rapid. Even new physics can take place at these high speeds, allowing for extra energy via cavitation and even radiation, which could account for the bizarre evolution of self-induced gene mutations. This new physics takes place when a mantis shrimp strikes a crab shell with such speed that extra energy needed to crack the shell is obtained and light is produced under water.

See here: Extreme high speed video of cavitation during a mantis shrimp strike

See here: Bubble fusion

Edited by crypto-ufologist, 26 August 2014 - 11:15 AM.


#11    Kenemet

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Posted 26 August 2014 - 01:55 PM

View Postlost_shaman, on 26 August 2014 - 12:11 AM, said:

Note the part I've place in Bold.
There are two problems with this:

* when a scientist says 'I can't identify that' it means "I don't have enough information to identify it".  This is generally taken as "Little Green Men"/flying saucers/interstellar craft and not "well, I can't really make out enough for a good id."

* frequently scientists and technicians (and us bird watchers) step in and make an expert identification.  We're then accused of all manner of things. The community seems to reject any alternative explanations.


#12    kartikg

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Posted 26 August 2014 - 06:31 PM

View PostKenemet, on 26 August 2014 - 01:55 PM, said:


There are two problems with this:


* frequently scientists and technicians (and us bird watchers) step in and make an expert identification.  We're then accused of all manner of things. The community seems to reject any alternative explanations.
Now they are being skeptical of your explanation. It's the opposite of someone trying to convince you of the picture being an ufo


#13    toast

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Posted 26 August 2014 - 07:25 PM

Ehm, what exactly is this thread about?

“For every moment of triumph, for every instance of beauty, many souls must be trampled.”  - Hunter S. Thompson -
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#14    stereologist

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Posted 26 August 2014 - 07:33 PM

View Postcrypto-ufologist, on 26 August 2014 - 11:06 AM, said:

I'm saying that gas exchange could take place through an all-the-way-through trachea adaptation. Not only would this increase efficiency from the currently known insect dead-end trachea tubes but also allow for the evolution of a type of inbuilt 'jet-propulsion'. It's only the speed of muscle contractions that needs to be extremely rapid. Even new physics can take place at these high speeds, allowing for extra energy via cavitation and even radiation, which could account for the bizarre evolution of self-induced gene mutations. This new physics takes place when a mantis shrimp strikes a crab shell with such speed that extra energy needed to crack the shell is obtained and light is produced under water.

See here: Extreme high speed video of cavitation during a mantis shrimp strike

See here: Bubble fusion
Air flow in insects is restricted to prevent water loss. Would a through system make water loss more efficient? How are you going to get a "jet propulsion" system out of tubules that are microns across?
Is that light produced underwater or simply a reflection?
Bubble fusion is still questionable. What has that got to do with a shrimp?


#15    Sir Wearer of Hats

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Posted 26 August 2014 - 08:46 PM

... "new physics"?

I must not fear. Fear is the Mind-Killer. It is the little death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear.
I will permit it to pass over me and to move through me. And when it is gone I will turn the inner eye to see it's path.
When the fear is gone, there will be nothing.
Only I will remain.




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