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France halts delivery of warship to Russia


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#1    questionmark

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Posted 03 September 2014 - 07:40 PM

The Guardian said:


France has said "conditions" are not in place to deliver the first of two Mistral-class warships to Russia, a move planned later this year that has sparked controversy given the crisis in Ukraine.

"The president of the republic declared that, despite the prospect of a ceasefire which still remains to be confirmed and implemented, the conditions for France to deliver the first warship are not to date in place," François Hollande's office said in a statement, on the eve of a major Nato summit.

The situation in Ukraine is "serious … the actions taken recently by Russia in eastern Ukraine go against the foundations of Europe's security", added the statement, issued after a meeting of France's defence council.

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#2    stevewinn

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Posted 03 September 2014 - 07:51 PM

View Postquestionmark, on 03 September 2014 - 07:40 PM, said:


Its all media grabbing headlines while the NATO meeting is on going here in the United Kingdom, in Wales. the leaders are all trying to out do one another, our very own David Cameron made a speech about defence spending to the members and how they should increase spending. (while we've cut our armed forces) he finished off by announcing £3 billion pounds for new light tanks.

All the leaders are doing what they always do when they meet up, all trying to outdo one another. Hollande's offering is this load of rubbish. He's not blocking the deal when the ship is ready it will be delivered to Russia. naive piece from the guardian.

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#3    keithisco

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Posted 03 September 2014 - 08:13 PM

View Poststevewinn, on 03 September 2014 - 07:51 PM, said:

Its all media grabbing headlines while the NATO meeting is on going here in the United Kingdom, in Wales. the leaders are all trying to out do one another, our very own David Cameron made a speech about defence spending to the members and how they should increase spending. (while we've cut our armed forces) he finished off by announcing £3 billion pounds for new light tanks.

All the leaders are doing what they always do when they meet up, all trying to outdo one another. Hollande's offering is this load of rubbish. He's not blocking the deal when the ship is ready it will be delivered to Russia. naive piece from the guardian.
Not Naïve on your part then? The ship will not be delivered until such a time as Russia withdraws its "Troops on Holiday in Ukraine"...


#4    Mikko-kun

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Posted 03 September 2014 - 08:31 PM

All this hassle about russian troops in Ukraine... with flimsy proof. And so little noise about the humanitarian aspect of eastern ukranian civilians. Does that not matter? Oh wait it's not allowed because it's russian... boys playing with gun toys, forgetting to protect women and children... killing's more fun?

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#5    Thanato

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Posted 03 September 2014 - 08:42 PM

Canada should buy them.

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#6    questionmark

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Posted 04 September 2014 - 09:09 AM

View PostThanato, on 03 September 2014 - 08:42 PM, said:

Canada should buy them.

The EU already said it might....

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#7    skookum

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Posted 04 September 2014 - 09:25 AM

Looks like Putin will have to go shopping for ships elsewhere.  I wonder who would supply him now?

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#8    stevewinn

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Posted 04 September 2014 - 02:38 PM

View Postkeithisco, on 03 September 2014 - 08:13 PM, said:

Not Naïve on your part then? The ship will not be delivered until such a time as Russia withdraws its "Troops on Holiday in Ukraine"...

Seeing how there is now more meat on the bone. The ship is due to be handed over to Russia in October. the French have suspended delivery till November. 400 Russian Naval personnel the vast majority Russian sailors still remain in France, in Saint-Nazaire training for the handover of the ship. the ships program is running three weeks late. (due to delays with training) so the even though the handover is on target in reality the date without Hollande's announcement as already slipped from October to November anyway. some would say very opportunistic for Hollande. Its no wonder they have postponed the decision to November.  

The Russians have already paid ¤1.2Billion. this would have to be reimbursed plus a further ¤3 Billion in penalties for cancelling the contract. are the French Government really going to pay such money. Lets move to STXeurope the Ship building company themselves. a subsidiary of STX Shipbuilding of South Korea, what of the cost to the ship yard and its workers? all added cost associated with postponing (not cancelling) the project.

If they do cancel the contract with Russia Who exactly in Europe are going to buy the ships, are they going to buy one ship or two? the second ship which work as already started? will ships three and four be cancelled outright? outside of France which country in Europe as an amphibious capability? which requires two mistral classes.

View Postskookum, on 04 September 2014 - 09:25 AM, said:

Looks like Putin will have to go shopping for ships elsewhere.  I wonder who would supply him now?

South Korea, Brazil, China. Vietnam, possibly Japan. or at the end of the day themselves.

Edited by stevewinn, 04 September 2014 - 02:39 PM.

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#9    Mikko-kun

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Posted 04 September 2014 - 05:57 PM

View Poststevewinn, on 04 September 2014 - 02:38 PM, said:

South Korea, Brazil, China. Vietnam, possibly Japan. or at the end of the day themselves.

Japan doesn't sound likely, they've been on pretty bad terms with Russia over the islands.South Korea might be their best bet though it's western-oriented and they probably dont look Russia's support to North Korea favorably (letting labor force in). Sounds like their best bet would be to try seal the deal & copy & steal the tech they can and use it in their own ship building and development.

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#10    stevewinn

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Posted 04 September 2014 - 06:08 PM

View PostMikko-kun, on 04 September 2014 - 05:57 PM, said:

Japan doesn't sound likely, they've been on pretty bad terms with Russia over the islands.South Korea might be their best bet though it's western-oriented and they probably dont look Russia's support to North Korea favorably (letting labor force in). Sounds like their best bet would be to try seal the deal & copy & steal the tech they can and use it in their own ship building and development.

Part of the French deal also included a transfer of skills and tech to Russia, where the final two ships No3&4 of the class were to be built. in a bid to get Russian dockyards back upto speed after years of neglect. i still think at the end of the day this ship will be handed over to Russia. two years worth of sea trials lay ahead before its operational.

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#11    keithisco

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Posted 04 September 2014 - 11:47 PM

View Poststevewinn, on 04 September 2014 - 02:38 PM, said:

Seeing how there is now more meat on the bone. The ship is due to be handed over to Russia in October. the French have suspended delivery till November. 400 Russian Naval personnel the vast majority Russian sailors still remain in France, in Saint-Nazaire training for the handover of the ship. the ships program is running three weeks late. (due to delays with training) so the even though the handover is on target in reality the date without Hollande's announcement as already slipped from October to November anyway. some would say very opportunistic for Hollande. Its no wonder they have postponed the decision to November.  

The Russians have already paid ¤1.2Billion. this would have to be reimbursed plus a further ¤3 Billion in penalties for cancelling the contract. are the French Government really going to pay such money. Lets move to STXeurope the Ship building company themselves. a subsidiary of STX Shipbuilding of South Korea, what of the cost to the ship yard and its workers? all added cost associated with postponing (not cancelling) the project.

If they do cancel the contract with Russia Who exactly in Europe are going to buy the ships, are they going to buy one ship or two? the second ship which work as already started? will ships three and four be cancelled outright? outside of France which country in Europe as an amphibious capability? which requires two mistral classes.



South Korea, Brazil, China. Vietnam, possibly Japan. or at the end of the day themselves.
Better still...the UK could buy them. That would make a huge difference in its Maritime defence capability - and a real snip to bridge the gap in the Carrier capabilities. 3Bn is nothing to the UK, and no 10 year building programme - it would be immediate... this is my first, best, option.


#12    skookum

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Posted 05 September 2014 - 01:28 AM

View Poststevewinn, on 04 September 2014 - 02:38 PM, said:

South Korea, Brazil, China. Vietnam, possibly Japan. or at the end of the day themselves.

At the end of the day they could of built the ships themselves, my guess is they no longer have the expertise.   Not sure Japan would want to stir anything else up given it is under threat from North Korea and the political situation between Russia and North Korea is not entirely known.  

China a possibility but putting the bull aside what quality and capability would they have? Most of their military kit is knock off old Russian military stuff anyway, vastly untested and in truth like the old Soviet Union overrated if put onto the modern battlefield.  We had all this with the USSR, intelligence rated their kit equally or sometimes above NATO's and after the collapse of the USSR they got a proper look and found it to be far inferior.

Doesn't exactly leave them with Countries that are well known for producing state of the art military equipment, hence why they went to the French who can build it.  

The only Russian aircraft carrier still in service was built in the Ukraine funny enough.  Built in 1991 and considered vastly out of date by today's standards even after refits.  Spent a majority of it's life in dock without aircraft due to Russian budget cuts but has always maintained a full crew.

Their carrier has no catapult system which does not support the latest Naval SU-33.  They can not leave the deck fully armed or fuelled.

Edited by skookum, 05 September 2014 - 01:35 AM.

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#13    stevewinn

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Posted 05 September 2014 - 06:43 PM

View Postskookum, on 05 September 2014 - 01:28 AM, said:

At the end of the day they could of built the ships themselves, my guess is they no longer have the expertise.   Not sure Japan would want to stir anything else up given it is under threat from North Korea and the political situation between Russia and North Korea is not entirely known.  

China a possibility but putting the bull aside what quality and capability would they have? Most of their military kit is knock off old Russian military stuff anyway, vastly untested and in truth like the old Soviet Union overrated if put onto the modern battlefield.  We had all this with the USSR, intelligence rated their kit equally or sometimes above NATO's and after the collapse of the USSR they got a proper look and found it to be far inferior.

Doesn't exactly leave them with Countries that are well known for producing state of the art military equipment, hence why they went to the French who can build it.  

The only Russian aircraft carrier still in service was built in the Ukraine funny enough.  Built in 1991 and considered vastly out of date by today's standards even after refits.  Spent a majority of it's life in dock without aircraft due to Russian budget cuts but has always maintained a full crew.

Their carrier has no catapult system which does not support the latest Naval SU-33.  They can not leave the deck fully armed or fuelled.

I agree the skill loss by the Russians after years of neglect has left them with limited ability to build high end surface Naval assets, part of the French deal was to build ships 1&2 in France, but ships 3&4 where to be built in Russia with a transfer of skills and tech. I read a lot of Jane's defence and its clear since about 2008 Russia as been modernising its forces and equipment. and as a result i don't think anyone in Europe could defeat Russia. in fact you take the USA out of NATO and i don't think the remaining combined forces of the 27 members could. years of defence cuts have caught NATO with its pants down.

View Postkeithisco, on 04 September 2014 - 11:47 PM, said:

Better still...the UK could buy them. That would make a huge difference in its Maritime defence capability - and a real snip to bridge the gap in the Carrier capabilities. 3Bn is nothing to the UK, and no 10 year building programme - it would be immediate... this is my first, best, option.

No chance of the Royal Navy getting these ships, the Royal Navy as current manning problems and major budget restraint thanks to government cuts. Depending on the Defence review 2015; The fleet is likely to be reduced further. the Royal Navy operates the bare minimum as it stands.

http://www.telegraph...ron-admits.html

Costs and future orders. :- Then we have to factor in the current ongoing maingate contracts for the Type 23 Frigate replacement program. The Royal Navy wants a like for like replacement of 13 hulls. the Government as only committed or shown an interest in ordering - just 8 of the Type 26 Frigates. So there is no-way on earth the United Kingdom will purchase the Mistrals off the French. They've just decommissioned HMS Illustrious from service who was performing the LPH role. while HMS Ocean was in refit.
https://ukdefencejou...-frigate-guide/
http://www.plymouthh...tail/story.html
https://www.gov.uk/g...takes-final-bow

We have enough Amphibious ships at the moment and note their commissioning dates, none are even halfway through their service life. we have HMS Ocean (Amphibious assault ship) has only just left dry dock after a major refit. and only entered service in 1998. then we have HMS Albion and HMS Bulwark, both LPD's (Amphibious transport dock) with HMS Albion in a state of readiness. commissioned in 2003 & 2004. then we have the RFA bay class. RFA Lyme Bay, RFA Mounts Bay and RFA Cardigan Bay. all three are LSD's (Dock landing ships) commissioned in Q1-2006 Q3-2006 and 2007.

http://en.wikipedia....HMS_Ocean_(L12)
http://en.wikipedia....S_Bulwark_(L15)
http://en.wikipedia....nts_Bay_(L3008)

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#14    skookum

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Posted 06 September 2014 - 01:46 AM

View Poststevewinn, on 05 September 2014 - 06:43 PM, said:

I agree the skill loss by the Russians after years of neglect has left them with limited ability to build high end surface Naval assets, part of the French deal was to build ships 1&2 in France, but ships 3&4 where to be built in Russia with a transfer of skills and tech. I read a lot of Jane's defence and its clear since about 2008 Russia as been modernising its forces and equipment. and as a result i don't think anyone in Europe could defeat Russia. in fact you take the USA out of NATO and i don't think the remaining combined forces of the 27 members could. years of defence cuts have caught NATO with its pants down.



Russia for the first time in decades spent more than the UK alone on defence by $10bn last year.  In 2010 they admitted it would take at least a decade spending 3 times what they are to get all their kit modernised. I am not sure I trust Jane's on this issue, they have vastly over estimated Russian capability since the cold war began.


As to the Naval news in the UK, we have now confirmed that both the new carriers will go into service.  Not just the one with the other mothballed or sold.  Two carriers of their size is quite a powerful achievement for a small island.

Edited by skookum, 06 September 2014 - 02:16 AM.

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#15    stevewinn

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Posted 07 September 2014 - 12:35 PM

View Postskookum, on 06 September 2014 - 01:46 AM, said:

Russia for the first time in decades spent more than the UK alone on defence by $10bn last year.  In 2010 they admitted it would take at least a decade spending 3 times what they are to get all their kit modernised. I am not sure I trust Jane's on this issue, they have vastly over estimated Russian capability since the cold war began.


As to the Naval news in the UK, we have now confirmed that both the new carriers will go into service.  Not just the one with the other mothballed or sold.  Two carriers of their size is quite a powerful achievement for a small island.

Its excellent to see the government commit to bring into service the second carrier Prince of Wales. Its the only true way to conduct carrier operations by having a minimum of two. I honestly thought they would mothball HMS Pince of Wales or sell it. On a personally note it'll be good to see Prince of Wales in service because the ship will be affiliated to the City of Liverpool. I guess we'll see a big recruiting campaign by the Government now to man the second carrier. I just wonder how this will impact on the ordering of the type 26 Frigates. will they reduce the numbers to less than 13?

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