Zinc12 Posted September 16, 2014 #1 Share Posted September 16, 2014 (edited) Who were the Aryans, the best way to answer that question would be to conduct genetic testing on the Brahmin caste of todays India….why? Because we know the high caste Indians are the direct descendants of these Aryans and they even today will only marry into other Brahmin caste family’s therefore preserving the Aryan genetic intact. And that is exactly what was found when genetic testing was done on several Indians selected from the three main castes in India. It was found that: “Analysis of these data demonstrated that the upper castes have a higher affinity to Europeans than to Asians, and the upper castes are significantly more similar to Europeans than are the lower castes. Collectively, all five datasets show a trend toward upper castes being more similar to Europeans, whereas lower castes are more similar to Asians.” http://www.ncbi.nlm....cles/PMC311057/ So upper caste Brahmins are closer to Europeans then Asians according to this study. This probably also explains why upper caste Indians tend to have lighter skin tone then lower caste Indians, being mixed race (Asian/Caucasian) we perhaps would predict that. So where did these Aryan Europeans come from? “we screened 621 Y-chromosomes (of Brahmins occupying the upper-most caste position and schedule castes/tribals occupying the lower-most positions) with 55 Y-chromosomal binary markers and seven Y-microsatellite markers and compiled an extensive dataset of 2809 Y-chromosomes (681 Brahmins, and 2128 tribals and schedule castes) for conclusions. A peculiar observation of the highest frequency (up to 72.22%) of Y-haplogroup R1a1* in Brahmins hinted at its presence as a founder lineage for this caste group.” http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/19158816 Haplogroup R1a is present in significant percentages only in the upper caste Brahmin family’s, thus it is concluded that the founding “Aryan” group would have been a military force consisting mostly of males (as you would expect) with haplogroup R1a. Is there any archaeological evidence to back this up? Yes there is, bordering north India is the Taklamakan Desert and the region of the desert known as the Tarim basin is known to contain preserved remains of what has been described as European mummified remains . The oldest is 4000 years old Europeans with later ones being mixed race (Oriental/European). Genetic testing was carried out on these mummies and they were found to belong to haplogroup R1a ! We can assume these or another group crossed into north India and were received as the Aryans, they were tall nomadic peoples skilled in horseback riding, they used waggons to transport goods and they were using bronze tools. In todays world haplogroup R1a is predominant in Ukraine,Russia and Poland, in the ancient world they were known as Scythians i.e. the Aryans were probably a Scythian military force that migrated into north India. Edited September 16, 2014 by Zinc12 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Puzzler Posted September 16, 2014 #2 Share Posted September 16, 2014 (edited) I actually think all that is pretty correct and I find it interesting. Herodotus says the Medians (Medes) were once known as Aryans. Darius and Xerxes (of Persia) claim Aryan heritage, I think he also says Cyrus mother was a Median princess. Seemingly living around the area of the Caucasus and Colchis, Aia at some early time, with Medea in mythology being the ancestor of the Medians. The swastika, nice pic, is imo connected to the Sun, is the Sun, also meaning, whole, good health, heil, (wheel) when seen inscribed into things, as Helios. Edited September 16, 2014 by The Puzzler 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank Merton Posted September 16, 2014 #3 Share Posted September 16, 2014 If you look at India's religion mix you see something that seems to support all this. The Aryans had a religion similar to Old Persian (before Zoroaster) polytheism, similar to Greek and Roman and Norse mythology -- with a pantheon of anthropomorphic gods led, each with specific realms of interest, who had sex and adventures and all sorts of mythical happenings and who depended on human worship and who could condemn societies that didn't pay attention to their cults. Other ideas, such as rebirth (reincarnation), karma, enlightenment, are apparently native to India and much older there, since they are shared by other religions that originated in India. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zinc12 Posted September 16, 2014 Author #4 Share Posted September 16, 2014 (edited) Another genetic study I found on India carryout by Harvard medical school concluded: “Prior to about 4000 years ago there was no mixture. After that, widespread mixture affected almost every group in India, even the most isolated tribal groups. And finally, endogamy set in and froze everything in place.” http://hms.harvard.e...-mixture-8-8-13 That 4000 year estimate fits in with the age of the oldest European mummies in Tarim and also within the period the Veda was written down. Edited September 16, 2014 by Zinc12 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank Merton Posted September 16, 2014 #5 Share Posted September 16, 2014 Let's see, four thousand years ago would be about 2,000 BCE -- yea -- about right. The proto-Indo-European language culture is dated maybe five hundred years before that, if memory serves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zinc12 Posted September 16, 2014 Author #6 Share Posted September 16, 2014 Other ideas, such as rebirth (reincarnation), karma, enlightenment, are apparently native to India and much older there, since they are shared by other religions that originated in India. Im not sure that is correct the old religion in Europe believed in reincarnation and enlightenment Cæsar ascertained that Druids "are anxious to have it believed that souls do not die, but after death pass from one to another." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank Merton Posted September 16, 2014 #7 Share Posted September 16, 2014 Im not sure that is correct the old religion in Europe believed in reincarnation and enlightenment Cæsar ascertained that Druids "are anxious to have it believed that souls do not die, but after death pass from one to another." You seriously misread what I posted. I said no such thing. Go back and try again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zinc12 Posted September 16, 2014 Author #8 Share Posted September 16, 2014 You seriously misread what I posted. I said no such thing. Go back and try again. you are sayng the Druids of Europe came from India then? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank Merton Posted September 16, 2014 #9 Share Posted September 16, 2014 Of course not. This is beginning to tee me off. I said nothing about Druids. Afterlife is not rebirth. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zinc12 Posted September 16, 2014 Author #10 Share Posted September 16, 2014 Of course not. This is beginning to tee me off. I said nothing about Druids. Afterlife is not rebirth. No need to get all hot and bothered about it, the Druids believed in rebirth and celts in general also believed in some type of afterlife Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank Merton Posted September 16, 2014 #11 Share Posted September 16, 2014 No need to get all hot and bothered about it, the Druids believed in rebirth and celts in general also believed in some type of afterlife What I don't like is people who respond to posts without knowing what the post said. Also people who put ideas in my mouth without my permission. I think I will leave off following this thread, even though the topic interests me. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zinc12 Posted September 16, 2014 Author #12 Share Posted September 16, 2014 What I don't like is people who respond to posts without knowing what the post said. Also people who put ideas in my mouth without my permission. I think I will leave off following this thread, even though the topic interests me. Well I guess its off topic anyway, but others are free to read and see how and if I interpreted what you wrote wrongly or not. anyway lets move on from that Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zinc12 Posted September 16, 2014 Author #13 Share Posted September 16, 2014 (edited) "The Arctic Home in the Vedas is a book on the origin of Aryans by Lokmanya Bâl Gangâdhar Tilak, a mathematician turned astronomer, historian, journalist, philosopher and political leader of India during 1880 to 1920. It propounded the theory that the North Pole was the original home of Aryans during pre-glacial period which they had to leave due to the ice deluge around 8000 B.C. and had to migrate to the Northern parts of Europe and Asia in search of lands for new settlements. In support to his theory Tilak has presented certain Vedic hymns, Avestic passages, Vedic chronology and Vedic calendars with interpretations of the contents in detail." en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Arctic_Home_in_the_Vedas The above book is intresting considering parts of Siberia is close to the north pole Edited September 16, 2014 by Zinc12 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
back to earth Posted September 17, 2014 #14 Share Posted September 17, 2014 (edited) Who were the Aryans, the best way to answer that question would be to conduct genetic testing on the Brahmin caste of todays India….why? They supposedly developed their traits from a long period somewhere associated with the Russian Steppe . Being the first domesticators of the horse had a great advantage. Their territory allowed ingress into the northern silk routes, into Parthia and associated territories, the old Caspian / Aral Sea 'complex' , upstream along the Amyu Daya (Oxus) River into its sources in the eastern Himalayas (and southern silk routes) and Pamirs ( 'Shamballa') over the Hindu Kush and into the northern catchment of the Indus. From another perspective; the Aryans were the Indo - Iranian group whose members put their social and cultural developments into the Zoroastrian Scriptures of the Avestas and the Hindu scriptures of the Rig Veda. The referred to themselves as Aryans from Airya or Airyan in the Avesta ( from their original centre of Homeland - possibly within that Pamirs - Ariyana Vaeja - and Arya or Aryan in the Vedas. Most of the information we have on them ( besides linguistic and archaeological ) is pre-historic and is found within both sets of scripture. These are the only known ancient texts that refer to 'Aryans'. Because we know the high caste Indians are the direct descendants of these Aryans and they even today will only marry into other Brahmin caste family’s therefore preserving the Aryan genetic intact. The earliest Aryan culture seemed to have two parts, these split later forming the Vedic Indians and the Iranians. Both have a very similar system that started as professional 'guilds' but with the Vedics degenerated into a set Caste System (the Iranian version does not limit one by birth and so did not become a 'caste' system). From the Avestan perspective King Jamshid (the first ‘Aryan’ to accept the message of Zoroaster) developed the concept of specialized professions. He instituted the four main professional guilds of priests and learned (athravan), nobles and warriors (rathestaran), farmers (vasteryosan), and artisans (hutokhshan), with members of each profession working in freedom and dignity. Farmers had their own land free from dispute. King Jamshid also instituted the tradition of the wearing the sacred thread or belt as an mark that the wearer had been initiated into the guilds . The Hindu Vedas list four similar professions called varnas: the priests and learned (brahman), nobles and warriors (khshtriya), merchants and farmers (vaishyas), labourers and artisans (sudra). Each varna has its own dharma or system and rules (also called laws) which included an Anchorinitiation ceremony called the upanayana (meaning bringing within). (The Vedic name for the systems of professions, varnas, and the Avestan name for the Jamshedi settlements, varas - both from the root vara meaning enclosure .) Hinduism developed the professional guilds into a caste system, a development that violated principles that Zarathushtra would promote. The initiation ceremony in Hinduism is now limited to men of the first three castes, while the initiation ceremony in Zoroastrianism is available to all women and men. In Zoroastrianism, the initiation ceremony is an initiation into the faith and a coming-of-age ceremony for all Zoroastrians - rather than an initiation into a guild or caste. I postulate that by setting their imported system into a birthright they created a perpetuating division in the further mixing of the population. This did not happen during the Iranian importation and there there is no genetic distinction between the different 'guilds'. And that is exactly what was found when genetic testing was done on several Indians selected from the three main castes in India. It was found that: “Analysis of these data demonstrated that the upper castes have a higher affinity to Europeans than to Asians, and the upper castes are significantly more similar to Europeans than are the lower castes. Collectively, all five datasets show a trend toward upper castes being more similar to Europeans, whereas lower castes are more similar to Asians.” http://www.ncbi.nlm....cles/PMC311057/ The way I see it is, firstly the Australoids were the main settlers in India and Southern Asia , these moved or were displaced by the Asian type variations and moved eastward into Australia and New Guinea and the Dravidians came to the fore in the Indus and other parts of India. The Aryan Indians came in through the north east and Afghanistan. It was and is a giant melting pot. So upper caste Brahmins are closer to Europeans then Asians according to this study. This probably also explains why upper caste Indians tend to have lighter skin tone then lower caste Indians, being mixed race (Asian/Caucasian) we perhaps would predict that. So where did these Aryan Europeans come from? Africa ? I find the more interesting question is ; when was their culture at its highlights and what do we know about their civilisation - which may have been the first one ... the west didnt even start looking into this area archaeologically until the 1970's , before that it was assumed all origins for civilisation was around the Fertile Crescent area ( however there was some research done by Russians). The Vendid lists 16 connected 'nations' in their 'empire' Note the 1st nation (noted by 1. - Airyana Vaeja) position near the valley into the Taklamakan Basin. “we screened 621 Y-chromosomes (of Brahmins occupying the upper-most caste position and schedule castes/tribals occupying the lower-most positions) with 55 Y-chromosomal binary markers and seven Y-microsatellite markers and compiled an extensive dataset of 2809 Y-chromosomes (681 Brahmins, and 2128 tribals and schedule castes) for conclusions. A peculiar observation of the highest frequency (up to 72.22%) of Y-haplogroup R1a1* in Brahmins hinted at its presence as a founder lineage for this caste group.” http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/19158816 Haplogroup R1a is present in significant percentages only in the upper caste Brahmin family’s, thus it is concluded that the founding “Aryan” group would have been a military force consisting mostly of males (as you would expect) with haplogroup R1a. Is there any archaeological evidence to back this up? There is mixed evidence (but little archeology) to show the old society divided and the 'Devarti' went to war with the 'Asuras' , after political problems and climate change, the 'Asura faction' settled and developed west of the Hindu Kush and the 'Deva worshippers' east of the Kush. However , long before this there was settlement, trade and travel between all the groups (and possibly with eastern China ). There is no archeological evidence (or much of any evidence) for a military campaign or invasion or displacement in of the Indus of Dravidians by Aryans. Yes there is, bordering north India is the Taklamakan Desert and the region of the desert known as the Tarim basin is known to contain preserved remains of what has been described as European mummified remains . The oldest is 4000 years old Europeans with later ones being mixed race (Oriental/European). Genetic testing was carried out on these mummies and they were found to belong to haplogroup R1a ! We can assume these or another group crossed into north India and were received as the Aryans, they were tall nomadic peoples skilled in horseback riding, they used waggons to transport goods and they were using bronze tools. yes, these are the people and the 'Empires' they had that I am talking about. I put a post up about some unusual place I found on google satellite associated with the Taklamakan Desert and the region of the desert known as the Tarim basin ... specifically , south of Hotan - one of the most unusual geological areas I have seen - but I got little response - here is a link to the thread that contains other links, co-ordinates and pics ... it has its own 'secret basin' and a river with two sources and no outflow ... that is the river flows in from two directions and meets in the middle in a 'desert delta' ... cant find the thread at the moment - its in the 'ruins seen from google earth' thread - here is a link .... travel around and zoom in and out , also try the angle view feature ... there is some strange villages and buildings down there (and giant Chinese mine with a ring of white stuff in the middle ) @ Kashitashixiang https://www.google.c...5c331844f1988b5 In todays world haplogroup R1a is predominant in Ukraine,Russia and Poland, in the ancient world they were known as Scythians i.e. the Aryans were probably a Scythian military force that migrated into north India. Nah ... North India was settled by Aryans long before that, and there is no evidence of a military invasion or displacement. It isnt possible that a or some Dravidians, 'Parthians' or Aryans travelled to east China , or the reverse. The trade routes were there ... people got there somehow in the first place , from one place to another. Who we call the Parthians were first mentioned in inscriptions of Darius (522 - 486 BCE) , at that time, several kingdoms of the remaining Aryan 'federation' were at that time part of the Persian Empire. The Aryan 'inges' into the Indus was way before that. Parthia, as a nation was in existence around already around 1000 BCE. Their origins (before they were known as Parthians - most notably after Alexander) It was the successor nation to Nisya (the 5th Aryan nation - see map above) . They were called 'Dahi-Saka Aryans' originating from the upper reaches of the Syr Darya river ( The Jaxartes R. ) A ring with Chinese like characters was found in 'Nisya' . You might find this page very interesting (it also has pics of the ring and the ancient ruins); http://www.heritagei...m/nisa/anau.htm Edited September 17, 2014 by back to earth 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
back to earth Posted September 17, 2014 #15 Share Posted September 17, 2014 If you look at India's religion mix you see something that seems to support all this. The Aryans had a religion similar to Old Persian (before Zoroaster) polytheism, similar to Greek and Roman and Norse mythology -- with a pantheon of anthropomorphic gods led, each with specific realms of interest, who had sex and adventures and all sorts of mythical happenings and who depended on human worship and who could condemn societies that didn't pay attention to their cults. Other ideas, such as rebirth (reincarnation), karma, enlightenment, are apparently native to India and much older there, since they are shared by other religions that originated in India. Hi Frank , if you are still around this thread, could you give me a reference or source for " The Aryans had a religion similar to Old Persian (before Zoroaster) polytheism, similar to Greek and Roman and Norse mythology -- with a pantheon of anthropomorphic gods led, each with specific realms of interest, who had sex and adventures and all sorts of mythical happenings and who depended on human worship and who could condemn societies that didn't pay attention to their cults." My research has shown different origins and types of pre- Zoroastrian religion, but I would like to examine this other source. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
back to earth Posted September 17, 2014 #16 Share Posted September 17, 2014 (edited) Another genetic study I found on India carryout by Harvard medical school concluded: “Prior to about 4000 years ago there was no mixture. After that, widespread mixture affected almost every group in India, even the most isolated tribal groups. And finally, endogamy set in and froze everything in place.” http://hms.harvard.e...-mixture-8-8-13 That 4000 year estimate fits in with the age of the oldest European mummies in Tarim and also within the period the Veda was written down. 4000 BC or 4000 BP ? Before that 'The Great War of Religion' between the 'Asuras' and 'Devas' when the 'Deva worshippers' moved and settled exclusively into the Indus. Note the differing clothing; Edited September 17, 2014 by back to earth 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
back to earth Posted September 17, 2014 #17 Share Posted September 17, 2014 What I don't like is people who respond to posts without knowing what the post said. Also people who put ideas in my mouth without my permission. I think I will leave off following this thread, even though the topic interests me. My pet hate as well. It would be great if you two cleared that up as i think you could both contribute to an interesting and hopefully educational discussion. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
back to earth Posted September 17, 2014 #18 Share Posted September 17, 2014 (edited) "The Arctic Home in the Vedas is a book on the origin of Aryans by Lokmanya Bâl Gangâdhar Tilak, a mathematician turned astronomer, historian, journalist, philosopher and political leader of India during 1880 to 1920. It propounded the theory that the North Pole was the original home of Aryans during pre-glacial period which they had to leave due to the ice deluge around 8000 B.C. and had to migrate to the Northern parts of Europe and Asia in search of lands for new settlements. In support to his theory Tilak has presented certain Vedic hymns, Avestic passages, Vedic chronology and Vedic calendars with interpretations of the contents in detail." en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Arctic_Home_in_the_Vedas The above book is intresting considering parts of Siberia is close to the north pole That got funked a while back. One of the things that locates the old Vedic Indian centre (the home of the lost and lamented 'Soma' of the Vedas) in the Pamirs region is the evidence of climate change in the area and their scriptural record in the Avestas. At the outset of the Jamshedi era, the weather in the Aryan homeland, Airyana Vaeja was fair and equitable, with the spring equinox heralding the start of spring and a renewal after the winter. However, a thousand two hundred years after the start of the Jamshedi era, there was a sudden climate chill (Vendidad 2.22-25) and a drastic cooling (also see Aryans, page 3) - a mini Ice Age of sorts. Knowledge of Central Asia's climate and climate changes during the past 12,000 years can assist in an understanding of the historical periods in Central Asia. For instance, in an event called the Younger Dryas, the earth is known to have experienced a sudden cooling starting 12,800 years from the present, with the cooling lasting about 1,200 years. In addition, there is evidence of more recent and shorter cooling spells of, say, 100 years. Different regions could have experienced different degrees of change and a severe cooling event could also have been regional rather than global. If the location of Airyana Vaeja was an area like the Pamirs, a 50 to 100C drop in average temperatures would have been sufficient to make winter life very harsh (Vendidad, a book of the Zoroastrian scriptures, chapter 1.2 and 2.22). We are informed by the Avesta, that after the change in climate, the warm months (the rapithwan months) in Airyana Vaeja were shortened from the normal seven months to two months in duration (Vendidad 1.3, notes in Vendidad Sada and Bundahishn 25 - the warm months being those when the ground waters are cooler than the surface). http://www.heritagei...ory.htm#weather (Also one can buy a hit or draught of 'Soma' or 'Haoma' in most market places in that area today, Tajikistan. It is made from 'Ehphedra' ... (which might help explain 'Indra's' war like rampages, his 'motto' as 'The thousand testicled one' and Zoroaster's ban on using drugs in religious ceremonies). Edited September 17, 2014 by back to earth 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zinc12 Posted September 17, 2014 Author #19 Share Posted September 17, 2014 Before that 'The Great War of Religion' between the 'Asuras' and 'Devas' when the 'Deva worshippers' moved and settled exclusively into the Indus. I have done some research on that actually, specifically the group of asuras called Danavas. Maya Danava, also called Asura Maya comes from outside India after Tripura is destroyed in the battle between the the devas and the asuras. I was also interested in tracking down the homeland of these Danava because curiously enough they appear in Irish mythology as the Tuatha Dé Danann (the tribe of danu), according to Irish mythology they originate from “the northern islands of the world”. I think India has met with northern Europeans three times in its history, earliest was the Danavans, then the Aryans, then the British. I wonder if the Aryans are far-off descendents of the Danavas/Asuras, carrying with them the ancient story of the great battles between the asuras and devas ? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zinc12 Posted September 17, 2014 Author #20 Share Posted September 17, 2014 My view about how and why the higher caste system developed in India is that it was an attempt of the Europeans to preserve their minority race among the larger Indian race. The Harvard study states that: “Between 4,000 and 2,000 years ago, intermarriage in India was rampant” “Only a few thousand years ago, the Indian population structure was vastly different from today,” said co–senior author David Reich, professor of genetics at Harvard Medical School. “The caste system has been around for a long time, but not forever.” So what happened is that initially these Europeans were not too fussy about who they slept with and had children with, so there were lots of mixed race family’s. Some Europeans probably preferred to stick with their own race and soon an emergency meeting was called for, the whites were basically concerned about their dwindling numbers. They knew they were greatly outnumbered and they knew that if they kept mixing with native Indians their race would face extinction. The few Europeans made laws and taboos then as an attempt to genetically isolate themselves from the larger Indian population. It worked as you seen from the genetic data of high caste Indians, they are more similar to Europeans then Asians! Its funny how they say history repeats itself, in modern northern Europe which is rapidly becoming “multicultural” some whites are already talking about how it’s a conspiracy to wipe their race out, they are already talking about preserving the race…human nature it appears is based on survival and that includes racial survival! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
back to earth Posted September 17, 2014 #21 Share Posted September 17, 2014 (edited) People have been mixing, interbreeding or maintaining 'isolationist cells' in other cultures since we had cultures. The divisions within the old Aryan nations can be targeted on certain things that we know about and it is postulated that these were symptoms of a cultural division within the society. One side ; King Jamsheed's - who, at that time, was known as a just and fair king that ruled over a just and fair society, the other side seemed to be involved in more 'alpha-male' tactics and establishing a ruling class that held it over the population (aside from other issues like the previously mentioned usage of drugs in religious ceremonies; disrespect to animals (especially dogs, they are considered unclean in later developments , like Islam, but in Zoroastrianism they are revered as the friend and companion of mankind - one even accompanies one of the 'yazata' {Vohu Mana} ) and the environment ( Deva worshippers pollute fire by cremations, Asura worshippers have air burials (as their 'relatives' in Tibet do) , Asuras were monotheists where Deva worshippers worshipped 'idols' etc. So the division ( profession defined by birth and kept in an 'enclosure' - or vara) already existed and was an import into India - which that Harvard study seems to affirm. " In his book, The Hymns of Atharvan Zarathushtra, Jatindra Mohan Chatterji calls the Rig Vedic devas the seen gods, and asuras the unseen gods. In other words the devas like Indra were anthropomorphic and capable of representation as idols, while the asuras like Mitra were, for the main part, non-anthropomorphic and formless. In the Rig Veda, the devas preside over natural phenomena and the exercise of power and might while the asuras preside over the establishment of a moral and social order. For instance, the deva Indra is guardian of the weather and victory in battle earning the title sahasra-mushka, 'the one with a thousand testicles' (Rig Veda 6.45.3), while the asuras Varuna and Mitra are the guardians of the cosmic and moral laws of rita (cf. asha). In the Rig Veda (4.42.1-6), when Varuna declares, "I, Varuna, am the king; first for me were appointed the dignities of asura, the Lord. I let the dripping waters rise up, and through rta I uphold the sky." Indra replies, "Men who ride swiftly, having good horses, call on me when surrounded in battle. I, the bountiful Indra, provoke strife. I whirl up the dust, my strength is overwhelming... . No godlike power can check me - I who am unassailable. When draughts of Soma, when songs have made me frenzied, then both the unbounded regions are filled with fear." (IMO this makes him sound like a hyped up, testosterone speed freak ) "The hymns addressed to Varuna are more ethical and devout in tone than the others, and form the most noble or high-minded portion of the Rig Veda. If the qualities of the gods reflect the values of the worshippers, then for asura worshippers building and maintaining a peaceful society based on law and order was a priority. For the deva worshippers, the priority would have been the exercise of power through might and fear. The asuras are ethical where the devas are materialistic. While in the Rig Veda both deities and their respective allies are worshipped, Indra and deva worship clearly take precedence. The largest number of Rig Vedic hymns are dedicated to Indra - nearly 250 out of a total of 1028. Agni, an asura, is invoked in about 200 hymns, a greater number than the number of hymns dedicated to Varuna. In Buddhism, the asuras are seen as lesser deities who are never satisfied and who continuously strive to better themselves. Zoroastrianism sees continuously striving for improvement towards excellence as a fundamental purpose of life. The characteristics assigned to the devas and asuras reflected what beliefs the rulers and their supporting priests wished to promote in society. The ideal of continuously striving to improve oneself could have promoted ambition amongst the common people, while some rulers and priests may have thought it more desirable to promote satisfaction or resignation to one's lot in life - a life that had been divinely ordained. Rulers and priests so inclined would have promoted deva worship that included the caste system rather than asura worship that saw working to better oneself as a virtue and not a sin. As in our example above, the differences between what the devas and asuras represented became differences in core beliefs, values, the nature of human beings, and the organization of society. These differences appear to have become strong enough to produce a deep societal divide - a schism - with the deva worshippers on one side, and the asura and Mazda worshippers on the other side. The Mazda worshippers were the Iranian-Aryans, The deva worshippers are generally thought of as being Indian-Aryans though they could have been any of the non-Iranian groups." http://www.heritagei...ns/religion.htm Edited September 17, 2014 by back to earth Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zinc12 Posted September 18, 2014 Author #22 Share Posted September 18, 2014 Do you see any correspondence between the war between the Deva and Asuras with the war between the Olympians and Titans or the Æsir and Vanir? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
back to earth Posted September 18, 2014 #23 Share Posted September 18, 2014 (edited) Sure do . Many of these mythological stories and precepts of later religion are based on these people and their culture; The Garden of Eden, the expulsion and the hopeful return (all the way through that iconography to the 'New Jerusalem'), religious dualism, monotheism (I know ... they stared monotheism and dualism - actually, the monotheism is supposed to be an import that came in from Siberian Shamanism - perhaps their homeland ? ) , angels and theocosmic hierarchies ... astrology, etc, etc. The war becomes a war of Gods of course and the Gods of one side become the devils of the other ( devil - div - diva - daeva worshipper ; divider, (of God, society, etc ) . deviate ... there is another one ; " The vedic / Sanskrit cognate of Avestan daeuua is deva, continuing in later Indo-Iranian languages as dev." Edited September 18, 2014 by back to earth Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Puzzler Posted September 19, 2014 #24 Share Posted September 19, 2014 Do you see any correspondence between the war between the Deva and Asuras with the war between the Olympians and Titans or the Æsir and Vanir? Vedic lore contains numerous elements which are common to Indo-European mythological traditions, like the mythologies of Persia, Greece, and Rome, and that of the Celtic, Germanic and Slavic peoples. The Vedic god Indra in part corresponds to Dyaus Pitar, the Sky Father, Zeus and Jupiter. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vedic_mythology 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
back to earth Posted September 20, 2014 #25 Share Posted September 20, 2014 (edited) Well, all systems and Gods can be classified according to their 'field of correspondence' *, thats an old Hermetic precept ( a bit like the 'Doctrine of Signatures') * http://hermetic.com/crowley/libers/lib777/table-i.html Edited September 20, 2014 by back to earth Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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