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Connections/perspectives


markdohle

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Connections/perspectives

In our inner lives, our experiences and the way we interpret reality, will be unique to each individual. While it is true we do form groups that we associate with and profess a commonality of shared beliefs, still, each person will hold them uniquely.

People usually don’t lock step, which can be a problem for both governments as well as religion. Some ideologies and religions can become very cult like, but their rigidity insures that they don’t exist all that long. People break away, or leave, or rebel and change happens; sometimes violently.

Life is difficult; no one gets through it unscratched. Losses, pain, all kinds of abuse are common to most people, conceivably 99.9%. We receive and then we give back allowing our world to pretty much stay the way it is. Our world views can seem to be 'forced' upon us and I believe that up to a certain point, it is true. Yet many do overcome their past and do not repeat the cycles that they had been born into. Our images of the world, the words we use have some objective truth to them, but they are also subjective to the extent that they rule us.

Language is also a problem. The debate between atheist and believers for instance…..is it in fact a real problem? Atheist fight against Theism, denying belief in any God or gods, which are usually made in our image and likeness…..which calls for trouble. So in theistic thought God can often be interpreted from a certain theory about that reality or from a revelation. Theist often make ‘God’ into their image and likeness, which is to say it is a very unpleasant deity much of the time.

We live in a rational universe. There are laws that work, and in order for anything to exist at all there had to be lot of information there to begin with. Words can be played with, but in playing things can be looked at differently I believe.

The atheist/theist debate I believe has hit a dead end. The only ones who are participating, at least in the mode of arguing, name calling etc., is between those who are more fundamental in their thinking. So extreme fundamentalist Christians and Village Atheist are likely to go at it ad-nauseam….mind numbing. It is so repetitious that it is boring for many people and perhaps most.

Are we wired to believe, if so, are some (a minority) also wired for atheism? If that is true, then why argue the point? Neither side has any advantage over the other. So the whole God question is still open, because of how we are wired making actual communication almost impossible.

What is nothingness? When I try to think of that term, my mind kind of stops, since it would seem impossible for there to be ‘nothing’ since ‘something’ obviously exist. We live in a universe that had a beginning and from what I read; it is headed for heat death. It has a lifetime, a long one by our standards, yet it will end. Was the universe made from ‘nothing”? What is ‘nothing’? If you want to play with words, you could say one way to explain God is that God is ‘No-Thing”. So God is Nothingness, because every thing in the universe is created, it has boundaries and will come to an end. The Infinite is not one of those ‘things’. So perhaps those who want to try to explain how the universe came into being without some Infinite Mind or Intelligence need to find a new word. Even if they do, nothing will be settled. The fact the most people actually do believe in some transcendent reality needs to be taken more into account. What do people experience that leads them to believe in the Infinite? What if we talked about ‘No-Thing”, instead of using the term God, I wonder if the conversation would change? It is such a loaded term. I am not talking about religion. People have to believe in something more that what is weighed and seen actually exists, before any religion can be embraced.

If there is a rational position to take on the God question it is not atheism nor is it faith, it is agnosticism. Atheism and faith are both non-rational, not irrational. This is what the dictionary says about non-rational:

nonrational - obtained through intuition rather than from reasoning or observation.

Both atheist and theist use both philosophy and science to back up their ideas. I am not talking about extremist, but normal healthy people. Arguments can be used to take either side, one has to choose.

It is obvious to me that there is intelligence behind the Universe, or over, or under, or one with…..we each have to choose how we express our beliefs. Now someone else may come to a different conclusion. All the other arguments that are used from both sides to belittle, or to show contempt, are simply straw men and woman arguments and make no headway. I can see a straw man argument when it is applied to me, maybe less so when applied to atheist. Our perspective limits us in how well we can listen to others, as well as how we easily pick and choose what backs up our arguments and beliefs.

In the book “Poof of heaven” by ‘Even Alexander” is an example how beliefs can change. I think it is a wonderful addition to in the ever increasing library that deals with NDE’s. He is a neurosurgeon and from his own words he was a reductionist when it came to how he believed the brain worked. In fact, his field and his studies made it impossible for him to believe that there was any kind of mind that could survive bodily death….yet for him the impossible happened. He died and had a full blown NDE. He can’t prove it, convince anyone that he had it…..yet it changed him. Those who believe in an afterlife will find it easier to accept his account. Those who don’t, well I would think the majority won’t believe. They will accept that he had an experience, but how he interprets it, no. They will draw from their own perspectives on the world to back up their arguments, which will be convincing to like minded people.

In the end, I can say that I am incapable of being an atheist. So I would assume that there are others who are incapable as well of being a believer of any kind. Wiring? Perhaps, though somewhere in there, I believe we choose.

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The atheist/theist debate I believe has hit a dead end. The only ones who are participating, at least in the mode of arguing, name calling etc., is between those who are more fundamental in their thinking. So extreme fundamentalist Christians and Village Atheist are likely to go at it ad-nauseam….mind numbing. It is so repetitious that it is boring for many people and perhaps most.

I think this is a bit short-sighted, because there are more "dogs in the fight" than just Christians. Pagans and many others have afterlife beliefs that are not Christian, and there are great world religions of the past and present that have differing beliefs (some of which may not be unpalatable to atheists.)

It's not a two-sided argument (although many try to frame it that way) -- it's a many-sided discussion. The problem is that one of the Big Dogs in the room keeps yarking at another Not-Very-Threatening Dog and hogging all the discourse.

IMHO, of course.

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I think this is a bit short-sighted, because there are more "dogs in the fight" than just Christians. Pagans and many others have afterlife beliefs that are not Christian, and there are great world religions of the past and present that have differing beliefs (some of which may not be unpalatable to atheists.)

It's not a two-sided argument (although many try to frame it that way) -- it's a many-sided discussion. The problem is that one of the Big Dogs in the room keeps yarking at another Not-Very-Threatening Dog and hogging all the discourse.

IMHO, of course.

I agree, I know of other religions and have studied and respect them. Buddhism for example. It is just here in the United States, this is the big one for many. Next time I will make some sort of a disclaimer before post if it is on a topic like this on. The debate between atheist and theist is of interest to me, though I mostly watch but don't often respond. It has all been said. Again thanks.

Peace

Mark

Edited by markdohle
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"In our inner lives, our experiences and the way we interpret reality, will be unique to each individual. While it is true we do form groups that we associate with and profess a commonality of shared beliefs, still, each person will hold them uniquely."

Hi markdohle,

A few words stand out to me in the above quote such as: reality; individual; and commonality. And I tend to agree with the way you've used them.

Just thought I'd throw in a few of my thoughts from my own "individual perspective".

I think that many of us simply get lost in semantics as far as what “reality” is. All that we experience is real in our minds regardless of its origin. This realm of space/time and energy/matter is real, but so is the realm of mind which is, I feel, somewhat “other-dimensional”. Mind doesn’t seem to require space to operate but it does seem to involve a concept of time since individual thoughts require sequencing. Although, I do believe the sequencing can be experienced at different rates even to a rapid understanding of seemingly everything all at once sometimes. This physical “reality” we live in does have an extremely smooth flow of continuity and concept of solidness that we just don’t seem to have in our dream experiences, even though our dreams may seem very “real” to us. But that doesn’t mean this physical world is anymore “real” than what goes on in our minds or dreams as far as the experience is concerned. Even a “simulation” existence would still be part of the “reality” of things.

I think true understanding though is a matter of “perspective”. Things seen from different perspectives can have differences in meaning based on each perspective (like the ancient example of the blind men all examining an elephant at different parts of the elephant). The question becomes, “Is there an ultimate highest perspective from which to view all of existence?”

I happen to believe there is. I think there is ample self-evidence that there are innumerable individual consciousnesses, but I also believe there are higher levels of consciousness that involve a collectiveness of mind. I think the concept of “God” involves not only that one ultimate highest perspective, but that the innumerable individual consciousnesses can also participate in that ultimate perspective and oneness of mind if they so choose. However, I also believe there are two rules for being permitted to participate in the advancement into the higher perspectives. These rules are extremely simple so that even a child can understand them.

First, we each need to individually believe that this ultimate perspective exists. In other words we need to believe that “God” exists and that he exists in Spirit and in Truth. And those that seek to attain oneness with him must do so in Spirit and in Truth. I think this is what Christ meant by the first great commandment of loving God with all your heart, soul, mind, and strength. We need to truly believe that he is and that he loves us each individually, and will spiritually lead and guide those who “Love Truth” into the Truth of all existence.

The second rule (as also stated by Christ) is “Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself.” This obviously means treating others as you yourself would like to be treated and conversely, not doing anything to others you wouldn’t want done to yourself. This rule must apply in every aspect of our lives and is not as easy as it may at first appear. However, the fact remains that even a child can understand these two very basic concepts.

I apologize if I’m coming off too “preachy”. Certainly not my intent, simply trying to explain my own views. I don’t consider myself religious but I am trying to grow spiritually. Something in me also believes that our lives here (and yes, I think it may take more than one single time) are classes of learning. These classes are so we can learn the absolute sacredness and firm requirement of those two simple rules above. This may involve what some may term Karma, but I personally also think that there is such a thing as forgiveness of Karmic debt that some can come to understand as they allow the Spirit of Truth to teach and reveal things to them. I think that eventually, we can progress enough in our mind of understanding to “graduate” into a higher perspective of being. I do think there is also a collectiveness to it.

This is a world of wheat and tares. There is truth and falsehood in everything. Why and how this is so is a whole ‘nother topic. But, wheat and tares exist in all parts of this existence to include those many “sacred” books that people like to call the “word of god”. But to those that Love Truth, and believe the Spirit of Truth will actually lead and guide them personally and individually, they can learn and grow and start gaining a higher perspective of things. Much like it is easier to solve a maze puzzle by viewing it from above rather than being completely down inside the maze, if we will believe that there is a spiritual perspective above the maze of this world that is willing to lead and guide us IF WE WILL SIMPLY ASK FOR THIS GUIDANCE FROM THE HIGHER PERSPECTIVE, then we can then be led and guided spiritually within.

Just a few of my thoughts.

Sojo

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"In our inner lives, our experiences and the way we interpret reality, will be unique to each individual. While it is true we do form groups that we associate with and profess a commonality of shared beliefs, still, each person will hold them uniquely."

Hi markdohle,

A few words stand out to me in the above quote such as: reality; individual; and commonality. And I tend to agree with the way you've used them.

Just thought I'd throw in a few of my thoughts from my own "individual perspective".

I think that many of us simply get lost in semantics as far as what “reality” is. All that we experience is real in our minds regardless of its origin. This realm of space/time and energy/matter is real, but so is the realm of mind which is, I feel, somewhat “other-dimensional”. Mind doesn’t seem to require space to operate but it does seem to involve a concept of time since individual thoughts require sequencing. Although, I do believe the sequencing can be experienced at different rates even to a rapid understanding of seemingly everything all at once sometimes. This physical “reality” we live in does have an extremely smooth flow of continuity and concept of solidness that we just don’t seem to have in our dream experiences, even though our dreams may seem very “real” to us. But that doesn’t mean this physical world is anymore “real” than what goes on in our minds or dreams as far as the experience is concerned. Even a “simulation” existence would still be part of the “reality” of things.

I think true understanding though is a matter of “perspective”. Things seen from different perspectives can have differences in meaning based on each perspective (like the ancient example of the blind men all examining an elephant at different parts of the elephant). The question becomes, “Is there an ultimate highest perspective from which to view all of existence?”

I happen to believe there is. I think there is ample self-evidence that there are innumerable individual consciousnesses, but I also believe there are higher levels of consciousness that involve a collectiveness of mind. I think the concept of “God” involves not only that one ultimate highest perspective, but that the innumerable individual consciousnesses can also participate in that ultimate perspective and oneness of mind if they so choose. However, I also believe there are two rules for being permitted to participate in the advancement into the higher perspectives. These rules are extremely simple so that even a child can understand them.

First, we each need to individually believe that this ultimate perspective exists. In other words we need to believe that “God” exists and that he exists in Spirit and in Truth. And those that seek to attain oneness with him must do so in Spirit and in Truth. I think this is what Christ meant by the first great commandment of loving God with all your heart, soul, mind, and strength. We need to truly believe that he is and that he loves us each individually, and will spiritually lead and guide those who “Love Truth” into the Truth of all existence.

The second rule (as also stated by Christ) is “Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself.” This obviously means treating others as you yourself would like to be treated and conversely, not doing anything to others you wouldn’t want done to yourself. This rule must apply in every aspect of our lives and is not as easy as it may at first appear. However, the fact remains that even a child can understand these two very basic concepts.

I apologize if I’m coming off too “preachy”. Certainly not my intent, simply trying to explain my own views. I don’t consider myself religious but I am trying to grow spiritually. Something in me also believes that our lives here (and yes, I think it may take more than one single time) are classes of learning. These classes are so we can learn the absolute sacredness and firm requirement of those two simple rules above. This may involve what some may term Karma, but I personally also think that there is such a thing as forgiveness of Karmic debt that some can come to understand as they allow the Spirit of Truth to teach and reveal things to them. I think that eventually, we can progress enough in our mind of understanding to “graduate” into a higher perspective of being. I do think there is also a collectiveness to it.

This is a world of wheat and tares. There is truth and falsehood in everything. Why and how this is so is a whole ‘nother topic. But, wheat and tares exist in all parts of this existence to include those many “sacred” books that people like to call the “word of god”. But to those that Love Truth, and believe the Spirit of Truth will actually lead and guide them personally and individually, they can learn and grow and start gaining a higher perspective of things. Much like it is easier to solve a maze puzzle by viewing it from above rather than being completely down inside the maze, if we will believe that there is a spiritual perspective above the maze of this world that is willing to lead and guide us IF WE WILL SIMPLY ASK FOR THIS GUIDANCE FROM THE HIGHER PERSPECTIVE, then we can then be led and guided spiritually within.

Just a few of my thoughts.

Sojo

You're not being preachy at all. Well said, will have to re read it a few times. A lot packed in this my friend.

peace

mark

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