Zinc12 Posted September 22, 2014 #1 Share Posted September 22, 2014 (edited) I am starting this thread so as to allow the continued discussion of selective breeding amongst humans to enhance selected traits so as not to derail an unrelated thread. http://www.unexplain...ic=85816&st=300 I maintain that humans are not outside the laws of genetic inheritance which operates amongst animals and just as horses can be selectively bread for speed ie race horses the same rules apply to humans. As an example I maintain that if you were to make it compulsory for all to sit an IQ test and invite the top 1% to live in a community, perhaps a small island set aside for this task any resulting offspring within this community would have an average IQ far above that in any nation outside this community. I maintain that such a group of people being in a surrounding with other brilliant minds would be in a good position to solve many Scientific, technological and philosophical problems that face us. I predict that this small nation would quickly become a beacon of light in our world and would quickly become known for their collective achievements in science, technology etc. I also predict much envy and jealousy would be directed by those outside such a community to the point that some would be ready to drop a bomb on such a community. Edited September 22, 2014 by Zinc12 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikko-kun Posted September 22, 2014 #2 Share Posted September 22, 2014 I like originality. But somehow, I dont know if selective breeding is a good idea. Rather than just select our mate by genetics, I think it's better to pay attention to how you get the genes in the first place, and I dont mean breeding. Just like when you build muscle or become more flexible or develop resistance to certain elements like cold (fur), heat (dark skin), you get that by exposing yourself to certain things, by doing certain things. In bodybuilder circles people talk about having genetics for a better body, "having the genes". It means there's been people with good physical strength in your family line, strongmen and blue-collar workers and such, firefighters, soldiers before gunpowder became popular, police, bouncers, brawlers, construction workers, hunters... I dont think genes just magically appear or are purely breeding-based thing, it should be evident where they come from. And people have a mind of their own. A child born in different day or just different hour can have a very different idea about what she wants to do with her life, and I say this just from astrological point of view, genes and your environment and people you're with affect too, everything has an effect. But you can't dominate people like one size for all and expect the best possible result, because that's not where they can be the best they can. Everybody isn't cut to be a long-distance runner nor fireman nor salesman, by their base persona, they'd have trouble, while others excel in those fields. But hey, you could try the breeding thing for a small country and see what happens. We already have world-wide human experiments on general population so I'm sure nobody would even mind if you can sell that in some nice "credible" package. And having a bigger IQ doesn't necessarily mean one's inclined to use it benefically. It took quite a bit of smarts to create things like A-bomb. I could had settled with a machete and crossbow, but people always gotta have more. You need a solution for that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
quiXilver Posted September 22, 2014 #3 Share Posted September 22, 2014 I am starting this thread so as to allow the continued discussion of selective breeding amongst humans to enhance selected traits so as not to derail an unrelated thread. http://www.unexplain...ic=85816&st=300 I maintain that humans are not outside the laws of genetic inheritance which operates amongst animals and just as horses can be selectively bread for speed ie race horses the same rules apply to humans. As an example I maintain that if you were to make it compulsory for all to sit an IQ test and invite the top 1% to live in a community, perhaps a small island set aside for this task any resulting offspring within this community would have an average IQ far above that in any nation outside this community. I maintain that such a group of people being in a surrounding with other brilliant minds would be in a good position to solve many Scientific, technological and philosophical problems that face us. I predict that this small nation would quickly become a beacon of light in our world and would quickly become known for their collective achievements in science, technology etc. I also predict much envy and jealousy would be directed by those outside such a community to the point that some would be ready to drop a bomb on such a community. Maybe I'm wrong, but it sounds to me like you're assuming that this 1% would operate with some altruistic desire to help. When often, intelligent humans, operating from their shadow side, use this intelligence to spread dominance and fear. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zinc12 Posted September 22, 2014 Author #4 Share Posted September 22, 2014 I like originality. But somehow, I dont know if selective breeding is a good idea. Rather than just select our mate by genetics, I think it's better to pay attention to how you get the genes in the first place, and I dont mean breeding. Just like when you build muscle or become more flexible or develop resistance to certain elements like cold (fur), heat (dark skin), you get that by exposing yourself to certain things, by doing certain things. In bodybuilder circles people talk about having genetics for a better body, "having the genes". It means there's been people with good physical strength in your family line, strongmen and blue-collar workers and such, firefighters, soldiers before gunpowder became popular, police, bouncers, brawlers, construction workers, hunters... I dont think genes just magically appear or are purely breeding-based thing, it should be evident where they come from. And people have a mind of their own. A child born in different day or just different hour can have a very different idea about what she wants to do with her life, and I say this just from astrological point of view, genes and your environment and people you're with affect too, everything has an effect. But you can't dominate people like one size for all and expect the best possible result, because that's not where they can be the best they can. Everybody isn't cut to be a long-distance runner nor fireman nor salesman, by their base persona, they'd have trouble, while others excel in those fields. But hey, you could try the breeding thing for a small country and see what happens. We already have world-wide human experiments on general population so I'm sure nobody would even mind if you can sell that in some nice "credible" package. And having a bigger IQ doesn't necessarily mean one's inclined to use it benefically. It took quite a bit of smarts to create things like A-bomb. I could had settled with a machete and crossbow, but people always gotta have more. You need a solution for that. I have noticed at the Gym that there are those who do half as much work and get twice as much results in half the time. It is well known amongst sports scientists and athletes that genetic inheritance is a major factor. I don’t think somehow training as you suggest will result in this genetic trait magically appearing from nowhere. A short person cant stretch themselves and think that because they stretched themselves their son or son’s son will be born tall. You say everyone is not the same and can not be expected to excel in the same things, you are right, that is honesty but what are people commonly being taught in modern society? In modern society they teach that all people are the same with same potential, this is an outright lie, people never were and never will be the same. People never were equal and that’s the truth. Since the human is composed of body, mind and spirit you could have three islands, one to enhance each attribute. The last one actually I would probably scrap since we could never agree who is spiritual or not, lets keep it to body and mind then, both these things can be enhanced through breeding. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zinc12 Posted September 22, 2014 Author #5 Share Posted September 22, 2014 Maybe I'm wrong, but it sounds to me like you're assuming that this 1% would operate with some altruistic desire to help. When often, intelligent humans, operating from their shadow side, use this intelligence to spread dominance and fear. I think people’s desire to help has more to do with upbringing so if the correct education was given we could expect it to rub off on the type of person an individual becomes. In modern society people are brought up with the rat race mentality, dog eat dog as a result they behave like dogs! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ashotep Posted September 22, 2014 #6 Share Posted September 22, 2014 I have to agree all people aren't equal and don't have the same potential. That can come from a number of factors such as intelligence, area in which you live or your physical structure, poverty vs being rich. However being human we have human frailties so if your brain is wired differently you may never want to help but control. It is dog eat dog and always has been ever since the first cave man decided to club another one for what they had. I think it will always be that way no matter how intelligent the population is. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StarMountainKid Posted September 22, 2014 #7 Share Posted September 22, 2014 Well, thhis island would have to have a big enough population to start with to avoid eventual inbreading. I also think this culture would not necessarily be a paradise to live in. Utopias don't seem to be in the cards for humans, as human nature soon spoils the soup. There is always the potential for evil geniuses, as well. It's a nice thought experiment, though. If you've ever known really smart people who knew they were really smart people, well... Having thousands of them walking around in one place, I'm not sure that's a good idea. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kenemet Posted September 22, 2014 #8 Share Posted September 22, 2014 Humans are already doing this, and have been doing it for quite awhile. The problem is that often the very intelligent are not respected and listened to by the rest of the world. So think about this: in order to have highly intelligent offspring, the focus of the breeding pair needs to be on intelligence and not beauty or strength, etc. Men have to NOT be intimidated or afraid of marrying a woman who's more intelligent than they are (because there's a 50-50 chance that either partner may have the higher IQ) and the woman has to be able to use her own intelligence and creativity to solve social problems (just as the man does.) The model of "lovely mom, lovely homemaker" isn't going to produce as many effective geniuses. Although they're not living on islands, you will find these parents and their offspring among the population of college professors -- and people who go to science fiction conventions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
libstaK Posted September 22, 2014 #9 Share Posted September 22, 2014 You people do know you what you are espousing here right? Does the term "Super Race" mean anything to you? Here's the "thing" about evolution - it is the mutations, those that prove beneficial in one way or another that govern the direction a species will ultimately go. But breeding humans for specific traits has huge pitfalls - being completely wrong about the importance of intellect in whether a human will be successful or absolutely most importantly live a happy and fulfilled life is just one that comes to mind. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markdohle Posted September 22, 2014 #10 Share Posted September 22, 2014 I have noticed at the Gym that there are those who do half as much work and get twice as much results in half the time. It is well known amongst sports scientists and athletes that genetic inheritance is a major factor. I don’t think somehow training as you suggest will result in this genetic trait magically appearing from nowhere. A short person cant stretch themselves and think that because they stretched themselves their son or son’s son will be born tall. You say everyone is not the same and can not be expected to excel in the same things, you are right, that is honesty but what are people commonly being taught in modern society? In modern society they teach that all people are the same with same potential, this is an outright lie, people never were and never will be the same. People never were equal and that’s the truth. Since the human is composed of body, mind and spirit you could have three islands, one to enhance each attribute. The last one actually I would probably scrap since we could never agree who is spiritual or not, lets keep it to body and mind then, both these things can be enhanced through breeding. If we do in fact have a spirit, why would you put that low on the scale of importance. Perhaps one of our problems is that we have lost connection with our spirits and with "Spirit". 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikko-kun Posted September 22, 2014 #11 Share Posted September 22, 2014 I don’t think somehow training as you suggest will result in this genetic trait magically appearing from nowhere. A short person cant stretch themselves and think that because they stretched themselves their son or son’s son will be born tall. Mutations, genetics adapting to what we do, our genetics learning what we need to strive and build themselves accordingly. Morihei Ueshiba actually stretched himself by hanging from a tree branch with his arms because he was too short for japanese military back then, but he managed to gain some height and they accepted him. I dont know if his kids became any taller, japanese are usually shorter from what I've understood, but it's a matter of exercise, I've observed. Capoeira for example originated from Africa, and people there have bigger hips and butts, and the moves in that dance work your hips and glutes pretty well. Human body is always adapting, and it's not a matter of if genetics change with the exercise when it's consistent enough because they do, it's just a matter of how much. After all, genomes contain a whole load of information, only 0,01% of a gene is still a huge deal of info. http://hypertextbook.com/facts/1998/StevenChen.shtml We roughly 3 billion (3 000 000 000) base pairs of DNA in the total of our chromosomes. I dont recall if it was 1% or 0,01% that changes in what, a million years usually, but even the 0,01% would be 300 000, so a single dna change in 3,3 years. And that is normal conditions, changes would probably be faster when you have more radical alterations in lifestyle. And that one change in 3,3 years is also the lower, could be hundred changes in that time for all I know. But the fact of the matter is, DNA changes. I dont dispute the inheritence factor, but that circumstances also change it. Is it just a coincidence people are black in the hot Africa? Or white and more hairy up north here? And animals, people are known to breed "freak" animals, like 10kg rabbits in Belgium, or those monster-strong bulldogs and other dogs that can pull cars, the dogs look like they've been to gym! And kobe beef cows too, quite unique strain with unique conditioning. And I would put utmost highest importance on spiritual side of human, doesn't mean just religion and paranormal but everything in that section. Philosophy, being sensible about one another. We lack that spirituality in comparison to our intelligence, and as a result we're like kids playing cowboys with real guns, people and everything else gets hurt for no good reason. Plastic continent in the middle of pacific, seas so polluted you shouldn't eat sea fish any more than once a week if even that, factory farms that make nazi ghettos look like disneyland if humans were ones in those farms. A-bombs and all the tech to eradicate troublesome life.All that isn't in balance with spirituality, spirituality doesn't have to be detached from reality, it should be real and hand-felt like acts of kindness, treating those in worse position more decently and respecting them in more than just sentiment. The world just isn't balanced as it is if you look at it like I look it, in terms of spirituality and craftiness. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Hammerclaw Posted September 22, 2014 #12 Share Posted September 22, 2014 The OP should read the novel, The Warriors of Dawn by M.A. Foster, an excellent work of speculative fiction on the topic. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank Merton Posted September 22, 2014 #13 Share Posted September 22, 2014 I will admit I worry about this. The temptation to "improve" and give the offspring every opportunity, according to the prejudices of the parents, will be huge. First we will work at eliminating genes that bring about diseases, without considering that nature may have struck a balance here so that removing the gene will have other consequences. Then we will consider things like height and skin color and of course sexual orientation. First the blind and deaf communities will disappear, then the gay community. If most Asians and others too had there way all babies would be boys. They had better not remove gay orientation is that is the world we are going to create. What about a world inhabited entirely by geniuses? I think it might be a nerdy place. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zinc12 Posted September 22, 2014 Author #14 Share Posted September 22, 2014 Well, thhis island would have to have a big enough population to start with to avoid eventual inbreading. I also think this culture would not necessarily be a paradise to live in. Utopias don't seem to be in the cards for humans, as human nature soon spoils the soup. There is always the potential for evil geniuses, as well. It's a nice thought experiment, though. If you've ever known really smart people who knew they were really smart people, well... Having thousands of them walking around in one place, I'm not sure that's a good idea. If you were to take the top 1% of the worlds population I would think the numbers would be sufficient to prevent interbreeding. Well those smart people would be average in a community of geniuses so would not be particularly aware of their brilliance Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zinc12 Posted September 22, 2014 Author #15 Share Posted September 22, 2014 (edited) Humans are already doing this, and have been doing it for quite awhile. The problem is that often the very intelligent are not respected and listened to by the rest of the world. So think about this: in order to have highly intelligent offspring, the focus of the breeding pair needs to be on intelligence and not beauty or strength, etc. Men have to NOT be intimidated or afraid of marrying a woman who's more intelligent than they are (because there's a 50-50 chance that either partner may have the higher IQ) and the woman has to be able to use her own intelligence and creativity to solve social problems (just as the man does.) The model of "lovely mom, lovely homemaker" isn't going to produce as many effective geniuses. Although they're not living on islands, you will find these parents and their offspring among the population of college professors -- and people who go to science fiction conventions. I think it would have to be an Island to be effective otherwise their daily interaction with people outside could cause friction and negative effects, like I said I predict serious levels of envy and jealousy directed towards them by haters. This experiment has never happened because the top 1% IQ scorers have never been dumped on the same place before. Their intelligence would rub off each other and they would push each others abilitys, this never happens in the real world because they are usually far above the intelligence of class mates or teachers. Edited September 22, 2014 by Zinc12 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Hammerclaw Posted September 22, 2014 #16 Share Posted September 22, 2014 (edited) Eugenic policies have been, historically controversial and have been conceptually divided into two categories. Positive eugenics is aimed at encouraging reproduction among the genetically advantaged,for example the reproduction of the intelligent, the healthy, and the successful. Often, approaches have included financial and political stimuli, targeted demographic analyses, in vitro fertilization, egg transplants, and cloning. Negative aspects of eugenics have included those policies aimed to eliminate, through sterilization or segregation, those deemed physically, mentally, or morally "undesirable" such as homosexuals. This included forced abortions, sterilization, and other methods of coerced family planning. Both positive and negative eugenics have been, historically,divisive and coercive. Abortion for fit women was illegal in Nazi Germany Edited September 22, 2014 by John Wesley Boyd 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zinc12 Posted September 22, 2014 Author #17 Share Posted September 22, 2014 You people do know you what you are espousing here right? Does the term "Super Race" mean anything to you? Here's the "thing" about evolution - it is the mutations, those that prove beneficial in one way or another that govern the direction a species will ultimately go. But breeding humans for specific traits has huge pitfalls - being completely wrong about the importance of intellect in whether a human will be successful or absolutely most importantly live a happy and fulfilled life is just one that comes to mind. There is nothing wrong with a super race, we should be happy for them and try not to be envious of their ability's Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zinc12 Posted September 22, 2014 Author #18 Share Posted September 22, 2014 If we do in fact have a spirit, why would you put that low on the scale of importance. Perhaps one of our problems is that we have lost connection with our spirits and with "Spirit". Because we would have no way to measure Spirit and therefore no way to decide who should go on that island or not, mental and physical ability's are things we can assess and measure,score etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank Merton Posted September 22, 2014 #19 Share Posted September 22, 2014 Genetic engineering might not be just for intelligence. I can see a religious or autocratic state engineering for dogmatism or for gullibility or even for submissiveness. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zinc12 Posted September 22, 2014 Author #20 Share Posted September 22, 2014 (edited) Mutations, genetics adapting to what we do, our genetics learning what we need to strive and build themselves accordingly. Morihei Ueshiba actually stretched himself by hanging from a tree branch with his arms because he was too short for japanese military back then, but he managed to gain some height and they accepted him. I dont know if his kids became any taller, japanese are usually shorter from what I've understood, but it's a matter of exercise, I've observed. Capoeira for example originated from Africa, and people there have bigger hips and butts, and the moves in that dance work your hips and glutes pretty well. Human body is always adapting, and it's not a matter of if genetics change with the exercise Capoeira is from Brazil not Africa and is not the reason why Africans have big butts as you put it, Brazilians don't have bid butts btw People develop these things by survival of the fittest, the others died and that is why they developed the way they did. White people are white because the darker skin ones probably developed weak bones due to lack of vitamin D and died, only the lighter skin ones survived and passed on their genetics. Edited September 22, 2014 by Zinc12 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zinc12 Posted September 22, 2014 Author #21 Share Posted September 22, 2014 I will admit I worry about this. The temptation to "improve" and give the offspring every opportunity, according to the prejudices of the parents, will be huge. First we will work at eliminating genes that bring about diseases, without considering that nature may have struck a balance here so that removing the gene will have other consequences. Then we will consider things like height and skin color and of course sexual orientation. First the blind and deaf communities will disappear, then the gay community. If most Asians and others too had there way all babies would be boys. They had better not remove gay orientation is that is the world we are going to create. What about a world inhabited entirely by geniuses? I think it might be a nerdy place. I'm not suggesting trying to breed out traits people might find undesirable for whatever reason or forced sterilization etc Putting the top 1% IQ scorers in the world on one island will not in anyway affect the human rights of those outside. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zinc12 Posted September 22, 2014 Author #22 Share Posted September 22, 2014 Genetic engineering might not be just for intelligence. I can see a religious or autocratic state engineering for dogmatism or for gullibility or even for submissiveness. or they could just use fluoridated water and chem-trail spraying of the public Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir Wearer of Hats Posted September 22, 2014 #23 Share Posted September 22, 2014 For any group of humans to function as a cohesive group there must be two things - the first is something for them to define themselves AS (smarter, sexier, wittier etc) and a hierarchy. Now that hierarchy could be conditional - "we listen to Pete because Pete's an expert on Pre-Raphelite sculpture and we're looking at Michaelangelo's David right now" - or it could be dominational - "What I say goes!". It depends on a lot of factors as to which camp the group falls into, the least of which being "what the group of formed to do" and the most important being "personalities". But the former, the first point ... how do you define yourself as something? You need an "other" a something to define yourself against. An outsider. A lesser being (less smart, less sexy, less witty, less well informed about Pre-Raphelite sculpture ... whatever). Now, what happens if you ARE a person in that group against which the group in question is measuring itself? You're ipso facto not allowed to be a member of that group, furthermore it's terribly easy for that first group to say "you can't understand it, therefore you shouldn't have it" (whatever "it" is). Arrogance takes many forms, and even the most caring people, the most well trained and compassionate people on the planet can fall into that trap. Imagine this group of geniuses. They know they're geniuses because they're smarter then the rest of us. They've appointed a provisional spokesperson to deal with the rabble (us) outside the island and the various committees and sub-groups on the island all function in a conditional hierarchy. It all looks great. Until they develop something new, something revolutionary, something that will change the world, but it's something that has taken a long time, something that has taken a lot of their hard work and maybe even cost lives. Their lives. Should they share it with the rabble? What did the rabble do to develop the technology? Could they even understand the principles behind it? Maybe they'll abuse the technology, after all they're not as intelligent as the islanders. What happens next? Hmm? Do they release the development and see it abused? Maybe it'll make things worse for common humanity if abused. Do they keep it? It'll certainly reflect poorly on them, and maybe the "less evolved" humanity will come and take it by force if it's so revolutionary. End sum - the islanders lose. The next time they'll keep things to themselves because either they're right and it'll get abused or they'll get attacked for not releasing it for reasons that are to them self evident. Or maybe there'll be no mistakes, there'll be no trouble. That was lucky. But they'll still have asked themselves that question. They'll still have found themselves in a situation where they have to choose "us or them". And one day, inevitably no matter how compassionate they've been trained/grown up to be ... they'll choose "us" over "them" (that'll be the rabble, the non-islanders). For whatever reason (and I can think of a few, the least of which being "no one but us understands the implictions of this discovery, it's too potentially dangerous" about something seemingly beneficial) they'll one day make a decision FOR us. And once that road has begun to be walked down ... it ends with Jackboots. A year, a decade or a century later, it'll end with Jackboots once one group of humans decides IT has the right to make decisions for another group of humans "for the betterment of our group". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zinc12 Posted September 22, 2014 Author #24 Share Posted September 22, 2014 (edited) Our government makes decisions for us all the time, and sometimes we don't even agree with these decisions so we don't need an island of geniuses to make that a reality. As for withholding technology for whatever reason, also our government classify inventions all the time. As for giving technology to the rabble, there are some country's people in the west consider as having contributed practically zero to the world in terms of technology/Science yet we shared our technology with these rabble so I guess there is hope. If you had a whole Island with people who had an average IQ twice that of those outside you can guarantee that they would be inventing things that otherwise might not be seen on this planet for a hundred years or more, and yes the concepts behind these devices might be so advanced that those outside might struggle to understand them. Edited September 22, 2014 by Zinc12 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skep B Posted September 23, 2014 #25 Share Posted September 23, 2014 This idea seems a bit pointless. the idea of this kind of isolation is used a lot in sci-fi, but the money involved wouldn't make it feasible, and just because someone has a high IQ doesnt mean they'll be anything special. Resilience and/or training and/or creativity can be just as effective. Theres also the problem of the different types of IQ. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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