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US Marine Kills Wounded Prisoner


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#16    wunarmdscissor

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Posted 19 November 2004 - 07:12 PM

Yes

Bet u didnt see that comin , i dont see everything in black and white, i dont even agree with the war in Iraq as it was carrioed out, but its always teh same with the anti/pro camps , they only see things in black and white this way or that way never the third way.

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#17    Hein

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Posted 19 November 2004 - 07:45 PM

QUOTE(wunarmdscissor @ Nov 19 2004, 08:12 PM)
Yes

Bet u didnt see that comin , i dont see everything in black and white, i dont even agree with the war in Iraq as it was carrioed out, but its always teh same with the anti/pro camps , they only see things in black and white this way or that way never the third way.

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I do believe in trying to see both sides of the coin. The difference between us seems to be that I do not accept American unilateralism.  Nobody appointed America as world policeman, and virtually nobody accepts that self-imposed role any longer.

Respect is earned, not imposed through the barrel of a gun. Especially not by shooting unarmed, dying people. And certainly not by targeting civilians:
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article6356.htm


#18    wunarmdscissor

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Posted 19 November 2004 - 07:48 PM

and the UN has earned the respect of by pussy footing around countries like Sudan, Zimbabwe and Iraq????

come on who else is gonna do it?#

as much as i hate george bush , we need america and it would be america who would be the first country the world turned to for help .

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#19    Celumnaz

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Posted 19 November 2004 - 07:48 PM

QUOTE(Hein @ Nov 19 2004, 01:45 PM)
The primary point remains this: Since this was an illegal invasion in the first place,

Don't agree with that premise.  Rest of argument moot unless the first premise is True.  Didn't answer wunarm either, just asked another quest avoiding answering.

QUOTE(Hein @ Nov 19 2004, 01:45 PM)
They are invaders killing people in their own country.

Dont agree with that premise.  Rest of argument moot unless first premise is True.  French nationals fighting with insurgents in Iraq are Iraqis?  Perfect logic based on false premise can only lead to perfectly logical fallicy.

QUOTE
"First, and most important, the people of Fallujah hate the Americans and support the guerrillas (even if they may have complaints about much of what they do).

QUOTE
virtually all the guerrillas are residents of Fallujah with supporters in the community.


That's kinda confusing to me.  When Afghanistan was "liberated", and the wounded fled to Iraq... and reports of insurgents coming from many countries (meaning they're not spread out across the world so much doing damage elsewhere)...  It's almost as nonsensical as some of my ramblings, but at least those make sense in my head... I can't make sense out of that.  Usually I can see other sides even if I don't agree with them.  Maybe someone can explain...

My opinion that the citizenry of each city, of Iraq as a whole are sick of fear and war and oppression... cause I think it's just human nature to get sick of that stuff and to yearn to be free... just as it's natural for those in power to want to aquire more power.  And can't judge by what's shown in the video beca


#20    Celumnaz

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Posted 19 November 2004 - 07:53 PM

QUOTE(Hein @ Nov 19 2004, 02:45 PM)
Nobody appointed America as world policeman, and virtually nobody accepts that self-imposed role any longer.


Blamed if we do something, blamed if we don't.  We so prosperous and powerful it's our duty, and we so uppity and rich and imperialistic we need to keep out of people's affairs... wonder why I think isolationist at times... wonder why it pops in my head... damned if do, damned if don't... but, if people saying anywhere they want to blow up US citizens... don't care.  Kill em first before they kill my kids, soon to be wife, and other loved ones like 9/11.  No more Hitlers?  No more 9/11's.  Don't have to be al-Quaaida or whatever to be a target.  Just have to say you want to kill a bunch of my countrymen and start training people to do just that. Boom.  I'm tired now... was wired from coffee but now just tired...


#21    Hein

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Posted 19 November 2004 - 08:05 PM

QUOTE(Celumnaz @ Nov 19 2004, 08:53 PM)
QUOTE(Hein @ Nov 19 2004, 02:45 PM)
Nobody appointed America as world policeman, and virtually nobody accepts that self-imposed role any longer.


Kill em first before they kill my kids, soon to be wife, and other loved ones like 9/11.  No more Hitlers?  No more 9/11's.  

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Tired argument. I simply can not believe there are still Americans around trying to convince the world that Iraq had anything to do with 9/11. You brought 9/11 on yourself by supporting a right-wing regime in Israel carry out the same kind of war crimes that you are now perpetrating in Iraq.

And please stop flattering yourself. America does not have the highest GDP per capita in the world, or even the second highest.
http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbo...r/2004rank.html

So stop thinking that we are jealous of what you have. You have very little to be jealous of, and lately a lot to be ashamed of.






#22    wunarmdscissor

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Posted 19 November 2004 - 08:14 PM

i also cant stand the attitude of celumnaz.

Kill em first? eh , then you mention hitler in the same breathe.

Tell me exactly when did america eneter the 2nd world war .

Was it at the start?? no

was it after a year?? no

was it after 2 years ?? no

was it 3 years ?? bingo.

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#23    wunarmdscissor

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Posted 19 November 2004 - 08:16 PM

dont get all high and mighty on us its not all black and white.

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#24    Asterix

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Posted 19 November 2004 - 08:22 PM

QUOTE(wunarmdscissor @ Nov 19 2004, 10:14 PM)
i also cant stand the attitude of celumnaz.

Kill em first? eh , then you mention hitler in the same breathe.

Tell me exactly when did america eneter the 2nd world war .

Was it at the start?? no

was it after a year?? no

was it after 2 years ?? no

was it 3 years ?? bingo.

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Exactly, and that's because-like in the 1st war-US wanted to make the most profit and have the less damage. The word "ally" has never had true meaning for US, and that's the sad truth. It's a commong knowledge what IBM did in WW2, not to mention : (from here and here
QUOTE
American corporations invested heavily in Nazi Germany, and many like General Motors and Ford had factories there, which also used slave labor and produced war materials for the Nazis. US corporate investment in Germany accelerated rapidly after Hitler came to power. Investment increased 48.5% between 1929 and 1940, while declining in the rest of continental Europe. American bombers deliberately avoided hitting these US factories, and they received compensation from the American taxpayer for any damage after the war. US oil companies sold oil to the Nazis and oil on credit to the fascists in Spain.
Many American capitalists were openly sympathetic to the Nazis. Henry Ford wrote a book called The International Jew: The World's Foremost Problem, and he is mentioned in Mein Kampf. James Mooney, the General Motors executive in charge of European operations, was awarded the Order of Merit of the Golden Eagle by Adolph Hitler. There were op-ed pieces by Nazis like Hermann Goehring in Hearst newspapers in the United States.



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#25    Celumnaz

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Posted 19 November 2004 - 08:31 PM

no just always the bad guy

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/4008761.stm

doesn't matter what discussion is taking place, or what good, or if we were asked or not, damned if do, damned if don't.

high and mighty?  It's others saying that about the US, not me.  I hear things "oh they so big and all that, they can take a hickey here or there, they so imperialistic they deserved 9/11"

Now WW2 is our fault.  it's all our fault.  Saddam/Bin Laden/al-Queda/Palestinian connections don't exsist. heh. ok.  rhetoric matches, smells like a fish, looks like a fish, acts like a fish, meetings of fish documented, payment to fish by fish documented but ok...

don't like wun's attitude either lol, but that's ok.  if were RL I'd have a black eye by now staring at stars.  has happened, will happen again I'm sure. extreme sarcasm eminates.  Love the support for the mentality that got Leon Klinghoffer.


#26    Hein

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Posted 19 November 2004 - 08:41 PM

Now this is an interesting quote:

A clique of U.S. industrialists is hell-bent to bring a fascist state to supplant our democratic government and is working closely with the fascist regime in Germany and Italy. I have had plenty of opportunity in my post in Berlin to witness how close some of our American ruling families are to the Nazi regime. . . .
"Certain American industrialists had a great deal to do with bringing fascist regimes into being in both Germany and Italy. They extended aid to help Fascism occupy the seat of power, and they are helping to keep it there." - William E. Dodd, U.S. Ambassador to Germany, 1937.(1)

Is there any proof that the situation has since changed? I don`t think so, not with Haliburton and Rumsfeldt around......

CRONYISM, CORRUPTION AND CALAMITY IN IRAQ
http://multinationalmonitor.org/mm2004/04m...rch04corp3.html


#27    twpdyp

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Posted 19 November 2004 - 08:59 PM

Is it just me or does it seem like the ones who do the most United States bashing are not citizens of the United States. Just an observation no numbers to back it up.
Arm chair quarterbacks, it is easy to sit in your comfortable homes and criticize decisions made by people who have access to more intel than we will ever have, who are making these decisions under pressures we will never be able to understand. Criticism after the fact is easy. I still cannot find fault with the actions of this young Marine, because I was not standing in his shoes, I did not see what he saw, nor am I under the same stresses and pressures as he was. I maintain that unless you were there feeling what he was feeling there is no way to judge his actions and reactions to the situation he found himself in........

As we go through this life reaching, striving, and straining for life's brass ring, has any of us ever stopped to wonder just who is running the Merry-Go-Round?
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#28    jeceris

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Posted 19 November 2004 - 09:00 PM

QUOTE(Hein @ Nov 19 2004, 08:41 PM)
Now this is an interesting quote:

A clique of U.S. industrialists is hell-bent to bring a fascist state to supplant our democratic government and is working closely with the fascist regime in Germany and Italy. I have had plenty of opportunity in my post in Berlin to witness how close some of our American ruling families are to the Nazi regime. . . .
"Certain American industrialists had a great deal to do with bringing fascist regimes into being in both Germany and Italy. They extended aid to help Fascism occupy the seat of power, and they are helping to keep it there." - William E. Dodd, U.S. Ambassador to Germany, 1937.(1)

Is there any proof that the situation has since changed? I don`t think so, not with Haliburton and Rumsfeldt around......

CRONYISM, CORRUPTION AND CALAMITY IN IRAQ
http://multinationalmonitor.org/mm2004/04m...rch04corp3.html

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hein. newbie. good quote.

but back to the topic, i may wear liberal glasses, and i do belive this war, sorry, invasion, is not right and is way out of control.
to the american soldiers walking the streets of falujah, the politics and economic reasons for this invasion, really don't matter.
so i put myself in the boots of a soldier going building to building, getting shot at and having adrenalin pump through my veins day in and day out. and if i was to come upon the same situation, i wouldn't wait to see what happened, being scared and wired from adrenalin, i would likely shoot first as well.
it's not right, it's just what i think most of us would do in that situation.
but hearing from the iraqi's that this was a cowardly act, ranks among the top ten most hypocritical statements this year.
nothing is more cowardly and disgusting, not even the american invasion, as someone with a hood over their head, beheading an engineer, or shooting an aid worker in the head. the act defines cowardice.

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there was THIS year

#29    Art Vandelay

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Posted 19 November 2004 - 09:13 PM

QUOTE(twpdyp @ Nov 19 2004, 08:59 PM)

is it just me or does it seem like the ones who do the most United States bashing are not citizens of the United States. Just an observation no numbers to back it up.

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No, you're correct, for the last five years the people I've debated with about U.S. foreign policy have all been from England (not picking on England, it's just my experience).

Now if I see a vehement U.S. basher and note they are from England I don't even bother debating because it's a complete waste of time.... whistling2.gif


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#30    Hein

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Posted 19 November 2004 - 09:32 PM

QUOTE(twpdyp @ Nov 19 2004, 09:59 PM)
it is easy to sit in your comfortable homes and criticize decisions made by people who have access to more intel than we will ever have, who are making these decisions under pressures we will never be able to understand.

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What an incredibly naive statement! I can not believe people like you still exist!





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