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France: Hizbullah TV allowed to stay on air


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#16    Erikl

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Posted 22 November 2004 - 03:30 PM

Talon, the ones who will would be demagogue if they'll do so, as there is no base for their claim.
You can't just go around claiming racism if you have no root for youre claims.
Such claims would not hold in court.

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#17    Erikl

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Posted 22 November 2004 - 03:31 PM

Babs, the fact is that both wun and Talon talk like that about their own immigrants tongue.gif

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#18    wunarmdscissor

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Posted 22 November 2004 - 03:32 PM

erikl your opinions are based on poor reporting that your receiving.

You know i went to school with hundreds of muslims and they integrated perfectly for the mots part

IN fact when i was in town the other day i commented to my g/f that you hardly even see asian women wearing a headress anymore.

Its like when the mongols destroyed the islamic empire , in the end they just became muslims themselves.

In the end the immigrant populations will live with the already in existence immigrant population who are already starting to convert to westernism in turn converting the newcomers.

In about 10 -15 years i see a totally different future than u do , i see one weher islam inthe west becomes more and more moderate just as christianity has.

I see why you believe what you do becuase of what you experience in the middle east but its completley different here.

Edited by wunarmdscissor, 22 November 2004 - 03:33 PM.

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#19    Talon

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Posted 22 November 2004 - 03:34 PM

QUOTE
Talon, the ones who will would be demagogue if they'll do so, as there is no base for their claim.
You can't just go around claiming racism if you have no root for youre claims.
Such claims would not hold in court.



Doesn't matter, there are still those who would claim its racist

"Wise men talk because they have something to say; fools, because they have to say something." -Plato

#20    Erikl

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Posted 22 November 2004 - 03:40 PM

Wun, I actually came to the conclusion that muslims in the UK don't integrate from what Talon and Sera wrote some time ago tongue.gif.

As I said, muslims in the UK and Germany are more moderate.
They are also of different origin then the muslims of France.
Most British muslims are Pakistanis, and most German muslims are Turks.
Those two do not come from the ME (Turkey is a European country in culture, Pakistani culture is more close to Hindu culture then middle-eastern one).
The only way I see youre future comming into reality is if the EU will enable Turkey in. As long as they won't, the muslims of Europe will be influenced by the middle-eastern immigrants who some of them are radical. European muslims will look at the French muslims as their model, because that where the largest muslim population will be.
If Turkey will join, they will look at Turkey as their model, and will accept Turkey's moderate form of Islam.

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#21    Erikl

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Posted 22 November 2004 - 03:41 PM

Well then, Talon, they can claim it as long as they want.
They have no air in their claims.

They can also claim that they are the kings of the world too, for all I care.
It will have the same legitimacy.

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#22    Talon

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Posted 22 November 2004 - 03:48 PM

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Wun, I actually came to the conclusion that muslims in the UK don't integrate from what Talon and Sera wrote some time ago .


Depends, some do, some don't. The most vocal of them don't.


QUOTE
Well then, Talon, they can claim it as long as they want.
They have no air in their claims.

They can also claim that they are the kings of the world too, for all I care.
It will have the same legitimacy.


Doesn't matter, they'll still claim it. And they wouldlikely win, because under political correctness anything counts as racism now-a-days. And since you want to ban racism, that means that what your saying will be banned, when in fact all it was was an attempt to tell of possible events of the future.

Mills wrote that no society can be Liberial if it bans the right of speach, because in amongst all the rubbish people say their are statements of truth. But if society bans those words because it beleives them to be rubbish, then they will be lost, and their meaning never heard.





"Wise men talk because they have something to say; fools, because they have to say something." -Plato

#23    Babs

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Posted 22 November 2004 - 03:58 PM

Erikl you have good points. original.gif I am learning alot.

Talon...Interesting... what Mills has to say....what era did he live in? wink2.gif

Edited by Babs, 22 November 2004 - 04:00 PM.

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#24    Talon

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Posted 22 November 2004 - 04:01 PM

I think I died in the early 1900s, but most of his writing was writen around 1880 including the one on Liberialism which I'm refering too ('Essay's on Liberialism').

"Wise men talk because they have something to say; fools, because they have to say something." -Plato

#25    Talon

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Posted 22 November 2004 - 04:05 PM

Correction, he died 1873, so it must have been written around the 1860s/ 70s

"Wise men talk because they have something to say; fools, because they have to say something." -Plato

#26    Babs

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Posted 22 November 2004 - 05:08 PM

John Stuart Mill (1806-1873).....got him right here, "Why Freedom Pays?"....didn't study him in philosophy.

I will read what he has to say. Do you think he is relevant today_ with this new form of terrorism?

"The mass of men lead lives of quiet desperation"

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#27    CatAstrofix

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Posted 22 November 2004 - 05:28 PM

Integration is not something that is reguired only from immigrants, it's the social-environment's duty as a whole. Integration has to be made possible, since the goal is multiculturalism and not assimilation. We can't think that bad bad immigrants, if you don't adapt, go home. we also have to take a look at the mirror and ask ourselves did they have a chance to adapt in a first place.

Edited by CatAstrofix, 22 November 2004 - 06:55 PM.


#28    Talon

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Posted 22 November 2004 - 11:20 PM

QUOTE
I will read what he has to say. Do you think he is relevant today_ with this new form of terrorism?


He's a founding father of social science, so yes, his views still count, he effectively defined Liberalism. If we take away freedom of speech, we don't match his definition of Liberalism, and so we are no longer a Liberal or Democratic society.

Plus, we're not talking terrorism here, we're talking of some political channel. Now personally I believe in censorship of the media anyway, but I don't pretend to be pro-Libertarian anyway outside personal freedoms. I would have banned the channel for going up in the first place, and I'd ban a lot of other stuff too, like religious channels etc. But that doesn't change the fact that you go on about free America and Liberty all that nonsense, so your American Ideology can't ban freedom of speech, if you did it would be against what you lot claim America stands for.

Neither does it change, who decides whatís racist? Because under political Correctness (something I'd ban) anything you say about another ethnic group which isn't positive is racist (nuts of course, but PC is control of the country, and its that which will be placing a tape over your mouth).


QUOTE
Integration has to be made possible, since the goal is multiculturalism and not assimilation.


Correction, your goal is multiculturalism. My own goal of integration IS assimilation. The dominant Culture of each country should be the native one, they shouldn't be asked to change because someone else decided to move there. Immigrants are free to follow whatever in their own homes, but they must abide by the rules of the natives when not. When in Rome, do as the Romans do.

Two examples of Immigrants who integrate well. The Chinese etc; in Scotland we've had Chinese for decades, they don't assimilate all that well because they tend to all live together and make their areas like little China Towns, however outside of that small area they respect and abide our laws and systems, and don't ask us to change. And because of that, we like them. The second is Black People; who in the UK do assimilate, and just become like us.... exactly like us, hell I know a lot of black British whose grandparents came here that are more patriotic about Britain and about holding onto our traditions etc than white British whose ancestors came here a thousand years ago. Hell, they just become us.
Thatís what integration should be, it should be Mutli-racialism, not multi-culturalism.

Meanwhile a bad immigrant is someone who comes here, refused to learn the languages, refuses to learn anything of the culture, and refuses to abide by our right and wrong, instead expecting us to change our country to match the one they or their parents left.

The purpose of immigrating should be to become new-*insert new homeland here*, not to expect them to become new-*insert old homeland here*


"Wise men talk because they have something to say; fools, because they have to say something." -Plato

#29    CatAstrofix

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Posted 23 November 2004 - 05:57 AM

Assimilation can't happen over night. That would take generations. Cultural backround of a person isn't something you can just cut off and insert a new one. You can't become someone you're not. I could never be turned to a british, or african, or indian woman. If I moved to one of those countries, maybe my children, or their children would. Though I would consider my roots and culture something valuable, and make sure that I'll pass it on.
Idea in multiculturalism, (which is by the way quite general goal in european humanright-organizations and governments, not just mine) is that different cultures can coexist peacefully and respecting others. Ofcourse laws have to be obeyd, they are necessary for the society to work, but culture isn't just something that violates those. I'm sure that most immigrants don't think that they can turn their new host-country into what they came from, bit naive to even say that.
Culture as it's widest meaning is a big part of who we are, psychologically and spiritually. Taking that off creates stress and sense of confusion and rootlessness. If the goal is that new-comers instantly melt in the population, it would be better to keep the boarders of the country closed in a first place.
Talon mentioned that immigrants tend to keep to them selves and create their own communities. I know that's true, and it serioiusly interferes with integration. I just want to aknowledge tha fact, that we might have made it happen. If the disrespect and arrogance towards immigrants is openly shown, ofcourse they want to stay away from that. I would too.


#30    Talon

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Posted 23 November 2004 - 08:43 AM

QUOTE
I could never be turned to a british, or african, or indian woman. If I moved to one of those countries, maybe my children, or their children would. Though I would consider my roots and culture something valuable, and make sure that I'll pass it on.


But I doubt you would try and force the anative population to change to your culture though, which is what many immigrants are now trying to do, whilst 10 years ago they would have adapted. Ironically its not for the most part the first generation who are the most vocal about it, rather the second and third generations who I agree with you should have adapted, who are raving about it, suddenly trying to reclaim their routs to a country teir parents fled and trying to drag the other 97% of us along with them.

QUOTE
I just want to aknowledge tha fact, that we might have made it happen. If the disrespect and arrogance towards immigrants is openly shown, ofcourse they want to stay away from that.


The UK follows a policy of segregation, it has little to do with arrogance or disrespect, its down to the UK government wanting to create little-Indias, and little-Pakistans, and little etc etc etcs Hell, they even want to introduce more one-faith only schools, and I beleive London has three black-children only schools. Did we learn nothing from the US' own dark history, that the ethnic minorities and Labour and trying to recreate it? This policy of not having populations intergrate is breeding radical loonatics amongst the ethnic minorities, and then creates tension with the ethnic majority who see this as a threat to their own culture.

"Wise men talk because they have something to say; fools, because they have to say something." -Plato




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