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France: Hizbullah TV allowed to stay on air


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#46    Talon

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Posted 28 November 2004 - 11:13 AM

QUOTE
You take away free speech and theyve won.

So i take it you like communism now?

Communism is the perfect way to stop terrorism,.

Give the state utter control over the masses?..


Sound about right. Mill stated that control of the media was allowed during wars, but he beleived the moment freedoms of speech were banned you were no longer a Liberial Free Society... could still be a Democracy, as Liberialism and Democracy aren't one and the same.... but for purposes, yeah it would be the first steps to a totalatarane state.


QUOTE
That's quite damagougic of you


You use that word a lot.... so much so I'm not sure you know what it means and are just using it as a by-word for anyone who says anything you don't like.

"Wise men talk because they have something to say; fools, because they have to say something." -Plato

#47    wunarmdscissor

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Posted 28 November 2004 - 11:17 AM

QUOTE
Sound about right. Mill stated that control of the media was allowed during wars, but he beleived the moment freedoms of speech were banned you were no longer a Liberial Free Society... could still be a Democracy, as Liberialism and Democracy aren't one and the same.... but for purposes, yeah it would be the first steps to a totalatarane state.


Exactly my point, except in the state Bush is trying to run there is no intention for total equality. Just totalitarian sate run capitalism lol. Inverted communism. So ironic.

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#48    Babs

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Posted 28 November 2004 - 02:06 PM

wun and Talon...

Okay we_ the U.S. _is still a democracy, but we don't have the "liberalism agenda" right now. That's because of the war and terrorism. We are in that "majority rules category" and public opinion is the reigning power. (I think that's the place to be in, in my opinion, if we want to win this war).

That's what I am trying to do ...bring public opinion to the board from the U.S.A. I know that public opinion rules here, now. We still have a lot of liberals crying and I see why. When the war is finished I will jump back to the liberal view and liberal issues. Interesting.

Hey, this is making sense now.



Edited by Babs, 28 November 2004 - 02:19 PM.

"The mass of men lead lives of quiet desperation"

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#49    wunarmdscissor

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Posted 28 November 2004 - 02:17 PM

OK babs rite the main vice of communism is that every aspect of a subject's life is monitored and controlled.

the main aim of america's foregn policy was to destroy communism , however the patriot act is just EXACTLY teh begginning of a dictatorship which is what 20th century communism degenerated into in nearly ever instance.

America's ever more intrusive patriot act is giving the state more and more and more control over its subjects.

Thus america becomes 1980's USSR. in the end .

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#50    Erikl

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Posted 28 November 2004 - 02:35 PM

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You use that word a lot.... so much so I'm not sure you know what it means and are just using it as a by-word for anyone who says anything you don't like.

And I can say the same thing about you when it comes to the word "paranoia".
Please, stop insulting people.
Believe me, from what I've seen so far, your'e nothing special and you should stop petronising on others here.

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#51    wunarmdscissor

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Posted 28 November 2004 - 02:42 PM

put away yer handbags , ya kno the problem is u 2 are so similar. lol.

Yer like a married couple lol.

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#52    zephyr

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Posted 28 November 2004 - 03:13 PM

QUOTE
When the war is finished I will jump back to the liberal view and liberal issues. Interesting.

Very interesting Babs; only problem is that we might have to wait for a very long time to witness that, the way things are going rolleyes.gif


#53    Babs

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Posted 28 November 2004 - 08:40 PM

zephyr...Yeah, I was thinking that as I wrote it.  sad.gif It will be a long time.

"The mass of men lead lives of quiet desperation"

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#54    Babs

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Posted 01 December 2004 - 11:00 PM

wun....I have been thinking about this and this country has been thinking about this, too, of course. We have had discussions here in the US about the patriot act and what the consequences would be if we let this law gets out of hand.
Scary. ph34r.gif  

Many say that we can't let the government take our guns (gun control coming on strong, here, too) because if the government did get out of hand we wouldn't be able to take back our control, we'd be helpless. sad.gif  This scares me as it scares a lot of people, but what can you do when you need to take some liberties for the sake of security and protection? I'm hoping we can see (when it will be) when we have to stop the government_ or see this 'invisible line', so to speak, in time, so that the government won't take control of our lives. What do you think? Is that possible?

We feel guns help us to remain independent and free... well many of us do. How does the UK work without guns, and still retain control by the people?

Edited by Babs, 05 December 2004 - 03:41 PM.

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#55    Asterix

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Posted 02 December 2004 - 05:43 AM

QUOTE(Babs @ Dec 2 2004, 01:00 AM)
We feel guns help us to remain independent and free... well many of us do. How does the UK work without guns, and still retain control by the people?

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They use this little thing called Democracy and Liberty Values..

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#56    Babs

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Posted 02 December 2004 - 03:54 PM

Then where does this thing with the "guns for the people" come in? What does "arms for the people" have to do with democracy?

...or freedom from governmental tyranny?

If you have freedom and democracy in other countries (without the gun), what is the U.S. doing? Anybody know or have an opinion?



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#57    wunarmdscissor

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Posted 02 December 2004 - 06:35 PM

QUOTE
We feel guns help us to remain independent and free... well many of us do. How does the UK work without guns, and still retain control by the people?


The Uk works teh same as the US does becuase wether teh people have gins or not it makes no difference to the government , just makes your criminals a lot more dangerous thast all.

The fact that the people own guys aint gonna make ne diffrence.

The point is that in the Uk along with america our military is under the control of the government and that is the whole point , there will never be a coup.

The people wouldnt make any diefference with a few guns against a well trained powerful army would they?

The people owning guns in america doesnt make any difference to the decisions our govt make.

Its a myth that it helps your rights , theres no truth in it whatsoever.



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#58    The Russian Hare

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Posted 02 December 2004 - 07:09 PM

Well to me, it seems a few people with guns are giving a "well-trained, powerful military" a hell of a time in Iraq right now. A few Jews with guns took on a "well-trained, powerful military" in the Warsaw Ghetto, and they took a lot Nazis down with them. A few Frenchman with guns(including single shot, discardable pistols that were worthless beyond a few yards) in occupied France killed a hell of a lot of Nazi soldiers there, too. And in Afghanistan, a "few people with guns" took on the Soviet Union in the early years of the Soviet invasion, before international support poured in, and they did a job on that "well-trained, powerful military" with little more than World War One era Enfield rifles. And even after aid was sent to them, the primary weapon was still small arms and improvised explosives. Once they got their hands on modern arms they bloodied that "well-trained, powerful military" until the Soviets were sent reeling back to the USSR bloodied and bruised. Now on the other hand, take a place like the Balkans where the international community imposed an arms embargo on the region. And what happened? The Serbs rolled over the ethnic minorities there, who were unable to arm themselves. They eventually secured weapons by buying them from terrorist groups and criminals, which is terrible, but it's exactly what I would have done, too.

Democracy and libertarian values are all well and good. What happens when they fail? And don't tell me they won't, or can't. Democracy is too new and untested a form of government in the grand scheme of history to know how long it can last. If other countries want to have a democracy without the right to bear arms, fine. whatever works for them. But I'm not giving mine up. That's just my opinion.

Edited by Redneck, 02 December 2004 - 07:10 PM.

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#59    Erikl

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Posted 02 December 2004 - 07:28 PM

Wun, although here in Israel the laws about gun ownership are pretty much the same as in Europe (it derives from British law, like many other Israeli laws), Babs and Redneck do have a point.
Just as you and Talon point out that if you ban some parties in a democracy, you are heading toward dictatorship, one can say that banning people from carrying weapons does makes youre government much more authoritatian, because it already controls the police and the military, so what will keep them from taking the bunch of you and do to you whatever they want?
Courts? Democracy? All that wouldn't help you if a dictator comes along.

Let's assume that the BNP will get elected.
The fact that you are a Scot, or part of a minority group, renders you a target by this new radical regime. How would you defend yourself? complain in court? won't help you, as Racial Laws just became part of British law. Go to the police? Sorry, the police is commanded by government orders.
No one will help you, because it's an inner British issue. You and youre people will be months from being gassed, together with other non-Anglo-Saxon, non-blonde, non-blue-eyed "Aryan" citizens.
Basically the government could do to you whatever it wants.
But if you all were allowed to have weapons, than that would restrict the government in the most basic principle of human rights - the right to deffense.

I know that was pretty heavy scenario, but the same can be fitted with the bad guys being Communists (which will render anyone with a political thought different than theirs to be deffenseless) or a simple military coup.

But, the fact is that we are all safe and sound even though gun ownership isn't part of our constitution.
The same can be said regarding freedom of speech.
Nothing will happen if groups that advocate violence, racism and hatred will be banned from spreading their violence.
Saying it will is just playing with ideal instead of dealing with what's real.

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#60    wunarmdscissor

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Posted 03 December 2004 - 12:47 PM

QUOTE
Let's assume that the BNP will get elected.
The fact that you are a Scot, or part of a minority group, renders you a target by this new radical regime. How would you defend yourself? complain in court? won't help you, as Racial Laws just became part of British law. Go to the police? Sorry, the police is commanded by government orders.
No one will help you, because it's an inner British issue. You and youre people will be months from being gassed, together with other non-Anglo-Saxon, non-blonde, non-blue-eyed "Aryan" citizens.
Basically the government could do to you whatever it wants.
But if you all were allowed to have weapons, than that would restrict the government in the most basic principle of human rights - the right to deffense.

I know that was pretty heavy scenario, but the same can be fitted with the bad guys being Communists (which will render anyone with a political thought different than theirs to be deffenseless) or a simple military coup.


thats a daft analagy erikl.

Education is the biggest factor.

Simple fact is that ina democracy education is more powerfl than a weapon.

People wont vote for the likes of the BNP , teh nazis or even the republicans ;-) j/k if they are educated.

Redneck all these examples , with the exeption of the serbian one that you quoted were involving an outside agrressor , of course if theres a war then the public should be armed that goes without saying.

The serbian example was FAR more complicated than you have so simply put it.

But how does you owning a gun at the moment protect your rights in america just now, what difference does it make.

QUOTE
Democracy and libertarian values are all well and good. What happens when they fail? And don't tell me they won't, or can't. Democracy is too new and untested a form of government in the grand scheme of history to know how long it can last. If other countries want to have a democracy without the right to bear arms, fine. whatever works for them. But I'm not giving mine up. That's just my opinion.


erm how long are we gonna wait for it 2 fail , im mean its been around for 2 centuries in Britain and it hasnt failed so.....when do decide to lay down your arms??

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