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France: Hizbullah TV allowed to stay on air


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#61    Erikl

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Posted 03 December 2004 - 04:28 PM

QUOTE
People wont vote for the likes of the BNP , teh nazis or even the republicans ;-) j/k if they are educated.

This is a very daft argument not to say very naive.... the fact that the Nazis rose to power in Germany, one of Europe's most civilized and educated society at the time, and had support from the elite and the academics, proves that even intelligent people, if they are fed with propaganda long enough, will support extremist.
This is also the cruelty of all those regimes - scientists, doctors, lawyers etc. supported them.

I used to think like you - that extremism is only possible among ignorant people. But that couldn't be further from the truth.

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"We live in a world where when Christians kill Muslims, it's a crusade; When Jews kill Muslims, it's a massacre; When Muslims kill Muslims, it's the weather channel. Nobody cares"

#62    wunarmdscissor

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Posted 03 December 2004 - 04:33 PM

QUOTE
This is a very daft argument not to say very naive.... the fact that the Nazis rose to power in Germany, one of Europe's most civilized and educated society at the time, and had support from the elite and the academics, proves that even intelligent people, if they are fed with propaganda long enough, will support extremist.


"At the time"

the average person in the year 2004 is FAR more educated than the average person in 1945 . Far more tolerant.

The academics and elite no longer hold the same power they held over the masses now either.

Democracy has moved on , there are many emchanisms in place to stop people like the nazis getton into power.

The last elections in France showed that you do not need a gun to stop a fascist from getting into power.

Stand up for the Champions
'MON the tic an tiocfaidh ar-la


saorsa na h-alba

#63    Erikl

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Posted 03 December 2004 - 04:46 PM

Wun, you are missing the point here.
You attack the analogy itself, instead of the point I tried to make.
I know it is a farfetched scenario, but you can change "Britain" to any other democratic country.
You can take France under La Pen.
Austria under Heider.
Spain under another fascist regime, and so on.

My prove was that even though under European democratic system people's rights to carry personal arm is not a constitutional right, the government does not makes you do whatever you want.
Just as you said to redneck earlier: "Its a myth that it helps your rights , theres no truth in it whatsoever." regarding his constitutional right to have a gun in his house, most Germans will tell you the same about youre opinion of restricting extremists' freedom of speech.
The fact is that Germany today is one of the most liberal democracies in Europe, even though they do have harsh restrictions when it comes to neo-fascist groups, proves that no harm will happen to French freedom of speech if they will ban Islamic extremists (or any other racist and violent group) from spreading their poison against other french citizens.

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"We live in a world where when Christians kill Muslims, it's a crusade; When Jews kill Muslims, it's a massacre; When Muslims kill Muslims, it's the weather channel. Nobody cares"

#64    wunarmdscissor

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Posted 03 December 2004 - 04:50 PM

I attack the analogy becaus ethe analogy IS the point of your argument

The simple fact is that western European democracies will possibly allow further right or further left governments into power but the people control the government not the other way around.

Just look at the Ukraine , there not fighting in the streets and they look like theyre gonna have their way.

The general public dont NEED to bear arms in a proper evolved democracy such as britain's or france's

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#65    zukie&jim

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Posted 03 December 2004 - 05:04 PM

cat.gif  in el-salvador , years ago, a sargent in the national guard took me to the capitol building . when we got there --the place was a wreck, bullet holes in the walls, all the windows shot out, doors blown off, ect--


i asked the sargent --"what happened here "--his reply --"the peasants decided to vote with bullets!"

cat.gif  alien.gif  devil.gif  cool.gif


#66    zukie&jim

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Posted 03 December 2004 - 05:09 PM

cat.gif there are lots of firearms in the ukraine ! to their credit  there reforming their country through peaceful protest--

i wish them the best !! cat.gif


#67    Babs

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Posted 12 December 2004 - 07:00 PM

wun...I have always wondered about the UK and their government_ 'not allowing arms'. The people want it that way and it is a safer place to live, you say. dontgetit.gif  

How in the world could you stop your government from taking over?  ph34r.gif

I think I want to keep my guns, now that I understand what is going on. This is the melting pot over here...and we have wild times and crazy, wild and dangerous people. When you touch down on American soil (U.S.A.) you sense you have to be on your toes.

I would hate to be without a gun when the robber stops at my house. sad.gif  You know, that even if the guns were taken from us, our criminals here would have them. crying.gif

"The mass of men lead lives of quiet desperation"

Henry David Thoreau...

#68    Olivier

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Posted 12 December 2004 - 08:22 PM

QUOTE(Erikl @ Nov 22 2004, 04:25 PM)
I don't think so Talon, because:
A. This is a fact if you take into account the demographics and lack of integration of the muslim immigrants.
B. I did say that Germany and UK, even though both have a big muslim population, are in a better position because their muslims aren't as radical as French muslims, thus rendering my critcism to radical muslims, not muslim in general.
C. If the muslim immigratns would have integrated into French population, there would have been no problem. But the fact is that they don't integrate and thus they do comprise a different "nation" inside the french one, thus making a bi-national France a feasible and unescapable futue.

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Please, stop generalizing.

Do not think that French muslims are not integrated in our society and are all radical.
It is a caricature which is totally wrong. There are problems of racism in France as anywhere else. That's all.

And for the TV channel, it will probably be forbidden. Answer, tomorrow. Do not criticize France too quickly... The reason why it is so hard to forbid a channel is a problem of freedom of speech . In France, we try to let anyone speak their mind. It is a difficult decision to forbid a TV channel.

Bye
Olivier

Edited by Olivier, 12 December 2004 - 08:34 PM.


#69    Babs

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Posted 12 December 2004 - 08:36 PM

Olivier...So you don't see this small radical extreme group of muslims causing a problem down the road? Maybe you could tell us a little more since you live there.

"The mass of men lead lives of quiet desperation"

Henry David Thoreau...

#70    Erikl

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Posted 12 December 2004 - 08:53 PM

QUOTE
In France, we try to let anyone speak their mind. It is a difficult decision to forbid a TV channel.

Even terrorists it seems... disgust.gif

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"We live in a world where when Christians kill Muslims, it's a crusade; When Jews kill Muslims, it's a massacre; When Muslims kill Muslims, it's the weather channel. Nobody cares"

#71    Olivier

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Posted 12 December 2004 - 09:47 PM

QUOTE(Erikl @ Dec 12 2004, 09:53 PM)
QUOTE
In France, we try to let anyone speak their mind. It is a difficult decision to forbid a TV channel.

Even terrorists it seems... disgust.gif

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Even those YOU CONSIDER as terrorists. Justice will decide on the status to give them.


#72    Olivier

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Posted 12 December 2004 - 09:58 PM

QUOTE(Babs @ Dec 12 2004, 09:36 PM)
Olivier...So you don't see this small radical extreme group of muslims causing a problem down the road? Maybe you could tell us a little more since you live there.

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I will answer quoting a song of a rap singer you may know - Doc Gynéco - while speaking about a sad "tradition" : to burn car's on new year's night in major cities's suburbs :

(Unfortunetaly, the poetical aspect of the song disappears with my translation)
All those youngsters who set fire,
Very rare are those who believe in themselves,
Too rare are those who believe in God
.

That indicates that problems in streets are not a matter of religion. On the contrary, once you have a religion, you know what borders you are not allowed to cross.

I know that the Twin Towers's destruction has been a real schock for Americans (even in France, we were schocked). Anyway, it is not a reson to associate muslims with terrorism. Terrorists you talk about are not real muslims. They belong to the muslim community and are manipulated by powerful people intersted in money ... All the muslims I know do not consider these terrorists as muslims (of course). Religion was just a powerful way of manipulating uneducated people.

Bye
Olivier


#73    Babs

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Posted 12 December 2004 - 11:23 PM

Okay. What about the extremists in your population? ...The extreme Islamists. The extreme Islamists that are muslim blink.gif .... will they be a problem down the road? I hear they are becoming a problem for France. Is this true?

"The mass of men lead lives of quiet desperation"

Henry David Thoreau...

#74    zephyr

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Posted 13 December 2004 - 09:09 AM

Racism is usually a good producer of extremism! Young people who live on the margines of a society and who are constantly subject to blind racism become perfect fanatic extremists! A visit to certain banlieue (suburbs) of any big French city is a good field trip to verify the validity of the above statements! wink2.gif


#75    Olivier

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Posted 13 December 2004 - 10:27 AM

QUOTE(Babs @ Dec 13 2004, 12:23 AM)
Okay. What about the extremists in your population? ...The extreme Islamists. The extreme Islamists that are muslim blink.gif .... will they be a problem down the road? I hear they are becoming a problem for France. Is this true?

View Post



We have - in  France - radical muslims. But not more than in Germany, for instance; contrary to what someone said. I know that, because our two countries are close and work together.

Extreme muslims become a problem because of the evolution of our laws. France tries to reach a perfect separation of religion and state. So, nowadays, in schools, pupils are not allowed to wear obvious religious symbols. The typical veil, the "tchador" worn by girls is no longer accepted, because considered as propaganda. As well as a big cross on a necklace.

Personnally, I disagree with that opposite extremism. This law made us receive threats from "muslim" terrorists who threatened France of bombings.

I think exteme islamists are not a problem specifically in France. Usually, France is positively perceived by muslims living abroad, because it has "always" been place which welcomes inhabitants of our former colonies.

However, as we have a large number of muslims, we provide a certain quantity of so-called "muslim" terrorists. This is a danger for the whole world. Not that much for France.

Indeed, the whole occident worked together struggling against muslim extremists either in France or anywhere else;


To ZEPHYR :

There is a problem of racism in our banlieues (suburbs). I think this is not a specifically French problem. This racism is sometimes, indeed, used to recrute "Allah-warriors".

However, I've seen a TV report dealing with a Franco-French guy who was going to train in Afghanistan, to be at Ben Laden's service. I'm not sure he had been victim of racism. But his case is probably particular.

Bye
Olivier





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