Do young atheists bond in a collective flight

[markdohle]

The man who posted this is not a friend of organized religion, but I think what he has to say is interesting. His thoughts on death and how we deal with it is also very pertinent. There are also atheist who do believe in an afterlife because of paranormal studies. I hope some here will find it interesting. So many perspectives, what i is one to do LOL.

Peace

Mark

Do young atheists bond in a collective flight from death?

Written by Michael Tymn (Michael Tymn's blog)

A web site called The Friendly Atheist recently came to my attention. The first thing that struck me was that the editor and eight of the nine regular contributors all appeared to be in their 20s or early 30s, the ninth contributor perhaps in his 50s. Their brief biographies suggested that most of them were raised in religious homes and are now rebelling against organized religion without any consideration for alternatives.

continue:http://whitecrowbook...ght_from_death/

[Leonardo]

From the blog...

"I occasionally weaken and fall victim to saying what’s on my mind, as unfriendly as it may seem, and in this case it just seemed to me that they are all still wet behind the ears – too young and too lacking in experience and exposure to have well-formulated opinions on such an important subject, in effect, the most important subject there is, and certainly too young to be preaching or proselytizing on a subject that involves much more study and research than their tender years could have permitted."

So, I take it Mr Tymn objects to young children being inducted into religion by their parents; being taken to church or sunday school to be preached to; etc - because they are also "too young" to be exposed to such an important subject and will not be able to form well-reasoned opinion on it until they are adults?

Or is he just objecting to those "youngsters" who slip through the net?

More from the blog:

"This conviction translates to great peace of mind in my 78th year of life as I struggle with possible terminal health problems."

It is not uncommon for people who reach a certain age and/or suffer with serious health issues to form a positive opinion regarding an afterlife based on their desire for continued existence in the face of the impending end of their current one. This bias translates into converting anecdote into the "strong" or "overwhelming" evidence the blogger suggests exists for post-mortem survival of some 'spirit'. He even provides the reason for this as providing "peace of mind" - which is not a bad thing certainly, but not something one would suggest should override reason when considering what it is that constitutes 'evidence'.

As much as Mr Tymn suggests the "young atheists" are fleeing from death, he is more so than they refusing to face the reality of his own mortality.

Edited March 24, 2015 by Leonardo

[White Crane Feather]

The man who posted this is not a friend of organized religion, but I think what he has to say is interesting. His thoughts on death and how we deal with it is also very pertinent. There are also atheist who do believe in an afterlife because of paranormal studies. I hope some here will find it interesting. So many perspectives, what i is one to do LOL.

Peace

Mark

Do young atheists bond in a collective flight from death?

Written by Michael Tymn (Michael Tymn's blog)

A web site called The Friendly Atheist recently came to my attention. The first thing that struck me was that the editor and eight of the nine regular contributors all appeared to be in their 20s or early 30s, the ninth contributor perhaps in his 50s. Their brief biographies suggested that most of them were raised in religious homes and are now rebelling against organized religion without any consideration for alternatives.

continue:http://whitecrowbook...ght_from_death/

Very good article, and something I have never thought of. I have never really bothered to take a good look at the psycology of the atheist. Thinking about it now, it seems there are two types. There are the emotional atheists and the logical atheists. They of course all think they are being logical, but the emotional atheists reaction and rejection to God or gods is primarily an emotional excercise. The few logical athiests simply are satisfied with whatever they think science is telling them about reality and have no intrest in the myths and legends of men.

I think there is something to this idea of banding together as they move toward the abyss. They have some noble idea that they will rid the world of religon and hearald peace on earth by virtue of eliminating religous conflicts. Not likely.

I like ray curswell's approach better. He takes vitimns every day and does his absolute best to stay healthy hoping he makes it to the point where technology can make him imortal.

The elephant in the room is that very few atheists realize that pure physicalism leads to eternal life also. You see mark there are only finite possible arrangements of matter. In pure science there really is no reason to assume this has been the only Big Bang... Ever or ever will be. It sort of silly actually and relies on logical positivism being strictly true. Nor does quantum mechanics support the idea that this is the only universe that can tunnel into existence. It leaves us with the revalation that by sheer virtue of monkeys typing this exact universe must emerge again and we all go through the same deterministic life. Even in the number pi, all sequences must start to repeat themselves after so many permutations.

Our alternative is another deeper reality. which still may simply exist by virtue of the infinite potential of the uncertainty principal.

Anyway. Once you take a serious look at science and leave out the failing doctrin of logical positivism, it becomes more and more likely something like a spirit world exists. Of course we only have a primitive preception of it.

"There are many rooms in my father's house."

Of course some people already know it exists

I have often wondered why we have not discovered any sign of intelliget life other than ourselves in the universe. By all accounts unless intelligent life is far rareer than we suspect, we should have gotton a blip of something by now. I have come to the conclusion that either two things happen. One we destroy ourselves ( but even this statistically should leave its mark on the cosmos). Two, we encounter a singularity of knowledge at which point we meld into the greater realities leaving the material world behind.

Ironically these scenarios sort of mimic the themes in religions. I can't help but notice the similarities.

Take care mark and thanks for shareing.

[Grandpa Greenman]

This seem like another version of Pascal's wager.

[White Crane Feather]

From the blog...

"I occasionally weaken and fall victim to saying what’s on my mind, as unfriendly as it may seem, and in this case it just seemed to me that they are all still wet behind the ears – too young and too lacking in experience and exposure to have well-formulated opinions on such an important subject, in effect, the most important subject there is, and certainly too young to be preaching or proselytizing on a subject that involves much more study and research than their tender years could have permitted."

So, I take it Mr Tymn objects to young children being inducted into religion by their parents; being taken to church or sunday school to be preached to; etc - because they are also "too young" to be exposed to such an important subject and will not be able to form well-reasoned opinion on it until they are adults?

Or is he just objecting to those "youngsters" who slip through the net?

More from the blog:

"This conviction translates to great peace of mind in my 78th year of life as I struggle with possible terminal health problems."

It is not uncommon for people who reach a certain age and/or suffer with serious health issues to form a positive opinion regarding an afterlife based on their desire for continued existence in the face of the impending end of their current one. This bias translates into converting anecdote into the "strong" or "overwhelming" evidence the blogger suggests exists for post-mortem survival of some 'spirit'. He even provides the reason for this as providing "peace of mind" - which is not a bad thing certainly, but not something one would suggest should override reason when considering what it is that constitutes 'evidence'.

As much as Mr Tymn suggests the "young atheists" are fleeing from death, he is more so than they refusing to face the reality of his own mortality.

Actually he makes it quit clear he is approaching the matter from more of a legal mind. Which by most standards would indeed confirm the existance of a spiritual reality.

As it turns out courts are much more effective at determining truths than scientific philosophy.

[eight bits]

WCF

As it turns out courts are much more effective at determining truths than scientific philosophy.

That will be news both to lawyers and phiosophers. Lawyers will be grateful, though, since people rarely have nice things to say about them.

On the blog

I can only agree that whether personal consciousness survives bodily death is a different question from whether or not there is any anthropomorphic God. Unlike the blogger, however, I am underwhelmed by the available evidence for either one.

I further stated that I was not going to address the evidence, as it would require volumes

One reason for skipping over the evidence is as good as another.

In his 1969 book, The Immortalist, Alan Harrington, an atheist and humanist philosopher, states that "a very few individuals, most having a remarkable capacity for self-deception, manage not to fear the end."

So what? Many people enjoy their youth, even though they know it won't last forever. You die young or else you grow old. There is no third way and no "98.8%" about it. Why would or should it be such an amazing feat to enjoy life on the same terms?

Marcus Aurelius (edited to remove a remark about a different religion, Meditations XI; 3rd paragraph in Loeb's numbering):

What a soul is that which is ready to be released from the body at any requisite moment, and be quenched; or dissipated or hold together ! But the readiness must spring from a man's inner judgment, and not be the result of mere opposition... It must be associated with deliberation and dignity and, if others too are to be convinced, with nothing like stage-heroics.

[White Crane Feather]

WCF

That will be news both to lawyers and phiosophers. Lawyers will be grateful, though, since people rarely have nice things to say about them.

On the blog

I can only agree that whether personal consciousness survives bodily death is a different question from whether or not there is any anthropomorphic God. Unlike the blogger, however, I am underwhelmed by the available evidence for either one.

One reason for skipping over the evidence is as good as another.

So what? Many people enjoy their youth, even though they know it won't last forever. You die young or else you grow old. There is no third way and no "98.8%" about it. Why would or should it be such an amazing feat to enjoy life on the same terms?

Marcus Aurelius (edited to remove a remark about a different religion, Meditations XI; 3rd paragraph in Loeb's numbering):

I did not say lawyers eight bits, I said courts. There are those that are innocent in prison for sure, and those that get off that shouldn't, but takeing all of the evidence in provides for at least a more acurate system. Logical positivism the philisophical base for the way most scientists conduct their research ( and rightfully so ) will inevitably lead to inacurate and whoelly wrong picture of the universe primarily because we cannot have all the information and throw out information that dosnt fit very stringent margins unlike courts. Inevitably it makes courts more effective at discovering truths.

Edited March 24, 2015 by White Crane Feather

[Arbenol]

Reasonably interesting piece.

He comments on the relative youth of atheist bloggers, but then talks about their collective flight from death. But at the same time says that their youth makes it "easy for young people to live with the nihilistic philosophy of atheism". Which seems to contradict the entire point of his blog.

One could just as easily say that believers in an afterlife are bonding in their flight from oblivion.

I don't think either view is especially helpful or illuminating.

[eight bits]

WCF

I did not say lawyers eight bits, I said courts.

If you express admiration for the shoes made by Nike, then you are not contradicted if somebody mentions that the shoemakers employed at Nike will aprreciate your saying so.

throw out information that dosnt fit very stringent margins unlike courts. Inevitably it makes courts more effective at discovering truths.

Are these American courts we're talking about? Our courts throw out evidence found at 1234 Massachusetts Avenue if the search warrant spelled it 1234 Massachusets Avenue. Not a formula for discovering truth, but a bad example of a good principle (if the constable errs, then the defendant goes free).

I don't think logical positivism has many living friends anymore. Actual science isn't done by philosophers anyway, at least not as a general rule.

[Tiggs]

Even in the number pi, all sequences must start to repeat themselves after so many permutations.

Pi's an irrational number. It's sequence never repeats.

[GlitterRose]

How is it a collective flight from death? I'd think that they are the ones acknowledging death. It's usually the atheist who actually acknowledges the loss associated with death, and doesn't insist that loved ones are "in a better place now," or "they're watching over you." None of us know that. All we do know is that our loved ones are gone, and someone's using our moment of grief to impose their beliefs.

My favorite quote that's meant to help, but doesn't...God doesn't give you more than you can handle. Actually, there are many people who commit suicide, so if there is a god, it's safe to say that it does.

[Galahad]

How is it a collective flight from death? I'd think that they are the ones acknowledging death. It's usually the atheist who actually acknowledges the loss associated with death, and doesn't insist that loved ones are "in a better place now," or "they're watching over you." None of us know that. All we do know is that our loved ones are gone, and someone's using our moment of grief to impose their beliefs.

My favorite quote that's meant to help, but doesn't...God doesn't give you more than you can handle. Actually, there are many people who commit suicide, so if there is a god, it's safe to say that it does.

there's some very beautiful parts in what you wrote that i liked.

but on "God doesn't give us more than we can handle" i must disagree, People have free will.

i want to tell you all about something i encountered whilst in the pacific that really hurt me.

Beside my home there was a family of ........( there religion ) and in that home was a family with a son and girl. I met the girl a few times and she always seamed dazed , she smiled a lot but i could see passed it, the smile hid something as it was forced. As a faithful..... she attended church 3 times a week i noticed.

This family was hiding a darker secret, the father was a monster behind closed doors.

The girl who was 14 took her life by drinking poison.A beautiful devout young girl who had been living in hell. A few days latter the community elders in the village were in discussion and i found out very privately that the father had been sexually abusing his daughter and she had tried to talk and get help at times but it appeared she had been brushed away because the ........( religion) did not want to get involved.

The part that angered me from there was they were all saying " She is going to go to hell now!" ,as there belief system believes suicides go to hell.

Suicides don't go to hell in my belief system, ( they go to a point where angels come and help them) This occurrence would have hurt my Lord even more than it did me so together we cried. I left that island community as i heard no voice that would defend this wonderful girl and bring the perpetrator to justice, when i spoke to the son i saw the same look in his eyes..

It is upto people to do the right thing and bring the peace..

God didn't give this girl more than she can handle...the evil inside others did.

there is evil in all of us and it gives us more, and forces us to give others more to seek our own ends...

there was many evils in this society and i could not stand it anymore, i would have liked to help the boy more but i doubt i would be here today if i tried too.

Edited March 25, 2015 by Galahad

[White Crane Feather]

WCF

If you express admiration for the shoes made by Nike, then you are not contradicted if somebody mentions that the shoemakers employed at Nike will aprreciate your saying so.

Are these American courts we're talking about? Our courts throw out evidence found at 1234 Massachusetts Avenue if the search warrant spelled it 1234 Massachusets Avenue. Not a formula for discovering truth, but a bad example of a good principle (if the constable errs, then the defendant goes free).

I don't think logical positivism has many living friends anymore. Actual science isn't done by philosophers anyway, at least not as a general rule.

Hmmmm i think you might be wrong on that last bit of course it wholey deales with if you think theoretical or experimental science Is the true holder of the torch. I think both. But you are goin to have to be a little more plain when debating with me, I'm pretty straight forward, not uneducated, but plain you see. I just have never had the capacity for certain kinds of things. I don't know why.

[White Crane Feather]

Pi's an irrational number. It's sequence never repeats.

Oh my. You mis understood. It dosn't have a sequence there genius. But all sequences repeat even after you recite it to the 22,000th decimal place for charity in three days.

[+Hammerclaw]

I'd prefer to leave atheists alone to embrace their oblivion in peace, or whatever fanciful notions they choose to substitute for the fanciful notions they reject. In the end, none of us actually know what is to come, be it something or nothing, we'd all just like to believe we do.

[Tiggs]

Oh my. You mis understood. It dosn't have a sequence there genius. But all sequences repeat even after you recite it to the 22,000th decimal place for charity in three days.

Again. Not all sequences repeat. Even with smiley faces.

[simplybill]

My favorite quote that's meant to help, but doesn't...God doesn't give you more than you can handle. Actually, there are many people who commit suicide, so if there is a god, it's safe to say that it does.

ChaosRose:

I believe you're referring to this part of 1st Corinthians 10:13:

"....God is faithful. He will not allow the temptation to be more than you can stand. When you are tempted, he will show you a way out so that you can endure."

(New Living Translation) (bolding added by me)

God always provides an escape route, but we often ignore the exit ramp. I'm not minimizing the pain that precedes a suicide attempt, having made a serious attempt at suicide in my younger days, though in my case I have only myself to blame for ignoring the warning signs as I began to self-destruct.

[Stubbly_Dooright]

The man who posted this is not a friend of organized religion, but I think what he has to say is interesting. His thoughts on death and how we deal with it is also very pertinent. There are also atheist who do believe in an afterlife because of paranormal studies. I hope some here will find it interesting. So many perspectives, what i is one to do LOL.

Peace

Mark

Do young atheists bond in a collective flight from death?

Written by Michael Tymn (Michael Tymn's blog)

A web site called The Friendly Atheist recently came to my attention. The first thing that struck me was that the editor and eight of the nine regular contributors all appeared to be in their 20s or early 30s, the ninth contributor perhaps in his 50s. Their brief biographies suggested that most of them were raised in religious homes and are now rebelling against organized religion without any consideration for alternatives.

continue:http://whitecrowbook...ght_from_death/

I have been to The Friendly Atheist's site many times. I find him to be a very grounded and good heart of a guy. That is despite the fact I find similar to my thinking of part of the article, that one can be of varying degrees of belief or non-belief and feel some sort of belief of the afterlife. So, to me, I think it's all more on a subjective level, than objective. I don't think I would find any overall result from it. That is me, though.

there's some very beautiful parts in what you wrote that i liked.

but on "God doesn't give us more than we can handle" i must disagree, People have free will.

i want to tell you all about something i encountered whilst in the pacific that really hurt me.

Beside my home there was a family of ........( there religion ) and in that home was a family with a son and girl. I met the girl a few times and she always seamed dazed , she smiled a lot but i could see passed it, the smile hid something as it was forced. As a faithful..... she attended church 3 times a week i noticed.

This family was hiding a darker secret, the father was a monster behind closed doors.

The girl who was 14 took her life by drinking poison.A beautiful devout young girl who had been living in hell. A few days latter the community elders in the village were in discussion and i found out very privately that the father had been sexually abusing his daughter and she had tried to talk and get help at times but it appeared she had been brushed away because the ........( religion) did not want to get involved.

The part that angered me from there was they were all saying " She is going to go to hell now!" ,as there belief system believes suicides go to hell.

Suicides don't go to hell in my belief system, ( they go to a point where angels come and help them) This occurrence would have hurt my Lord even more than it did me so together we cried. I left that island community as i heard no voice that would defend this wonderful girl and bring the perpetrator to justice, when i spoke to the son i saw the same look in his eyes..

It is upto people to do the right thing and bring the peace..

God didn't give this girl more than she can handle...the evil inside others did.

there is evil in all of us and it gives us more, and forces us to give others more to seek our own ends...

there was many evils in this society and i could not stand it anymore, i would have liked to help the boy more but i doubt i would be here today if i tried too.

Here's the thing, and I have been reflecting on this thought too, recently. (and I would like to agree with you on the thought of angels helping the successful suicides with their pain. ) but I don't think one can say that 'God only gives what you can handle and think that is true. And thinking of your point of it's the evil inside others toward the suicide that does that, well, yeah I would agree with that. I don't know if you feel this way, but what would be the thinking of someone who was helped from the brink of suicide by the good inside others who helped that person find a reason to live and be happy? Would you think it was them, or that God spoke through those good people? You see, I have read, and experienced people who talk about how people are helped by others, and then go to say that God spoke through them. Wouldn't that be, no, it's just those people who helped are the ones that gave the help? Would you agree?

[Stubbly_Dooright]

God always provides an escape route, but we often ignore the exit ramp. I'm not minimizing the pain that precedes a suicide attempt, having made a serious attempt at suicide in my younger days, though in my case I have only myself to blame for ignoring the warning signs as I began to self-destruct.

I do not want to minimize your experience or pain as well. You have my heart and thoughts for you on that, and see how you can speak from your experience.

Here's the thing, and I have observed how everyone takes in information and what is in front of them differently. What would be the warning signs that all can understand?

[+Link of Hyrule]

I do not want to minimize your experience or pain as well. You have my heart and thoughts for you on that, and see how you can speak from your experience.

Here's the thing, and I have observed how everyone takes in information and what is in front of them differently. What would be the warning signs that all can understand?

I personally would suggest that it's different for everybody. My mum attempted suicide when she was a teenager, I inherited some of her Depression (though I'm only mild-moderate and have never seriously considered suicide) and therefore see her views. Contemplating suicide is a terrible thing, I don't think there is any specific "warning sign" that sets suicidal thoughts apart from other forms of depression. Obviously a direct statement is key, but even then I've learned that there are degrees of comments - in my Child Protection Training for school I've been taught that there is a key difference in hearing the phrase "I wish I was dead" to "I want to kill myself". The latter of these is treated far more seriously (in saying that, the former is not ignored, it is also treated seriously, but not the same level).

I'm what the government designates as a "mandatory reporter" so if I even suspect such things I need to legally tell someone about it, but as a general rule for the rest of the population I'd simply say that it's best to err on the side of caution, and treat any suspicions as if they are legitimate. There are sources out there to help people, and recommending to people that they seek out these sources is the best practice to help them. None of us are trained counsellors, and anything we might say could make thing worse. Suggesting professional help is all we really can do, there's no blueprint of a suicidal person that we can use to chart whether someone really is or isn't in danger.

If that makes any sense at all.

[simplybill]

Here's the thing, and I have observed how everyone takes in information and what is in front of them differently. What would be the warning signs that all can understand?

Stubbly -

You are correct, though I had to paraphrase your quote in order for my reply to make sense:

"Some warning signs are specific to the person, while other warning signs are universal."

When I was younger, I personally observed in other people the ill effects of alcoholism and drug abuse. I ignored those lessons, and thoroughly embraced a lifestyle of drugs and drinking. While it was fun at first, it soon led to a downward spiral of bad decisions and a sense of hopelessness. I should have known better than to behave so recklessly, but as most addicted people will tell you, "I thought I could handle it."

On a more universal scale, I think this quote from the blog that markdohle posted in the OP points to a question that could be asked of anyone:

“Let sanguine healthy-mindedness do its best with its strange power of living in the moment and ignoring and forgetting, still the evil background is really there to be thought of, and the skull will grin in at the banquet. In the practical life of the individual, we know how his whole gloom or glee about any present fact depends on the remoter schemes and hopes of which it stands related. Its significance and framing give it the chief part of its value. Let it be known to lead nowhere, and however agreeable it may be in its immediacy, its glow and gilding vanish. The old man, sick with an insidious internal disease, may laugh and quaff his wine at first as well as ever, but he knows his fate now, for the doctors have revealed it, and the knowledge knocks the satisfaction out of all these functions. They are partners of death and the worm is their brother, and they turn to a mere flatness.”

William James

That nails it. I ask myself that question often: "If I continue on this path, where will I be in 10 years?"

The mistake I made as a young man was seeing myself as a "tragic figure", and therefore I had a Golden Ticket to be self-centered and foolish because, after all, I had a tragic childhood. Right? Boy was I wrong.

Earlier, when I quoted 1st Corinthians, I left out the first part of the quote:

"The temptations in your life are no different from what others experience. And God is faithful. He will not allow the temptation to be more than you can stand. When you are tempted, he will show you a way out so that you can endure."

Each one of us is unique, having unique personalities and unique talents, but that doesn't give us the right to declare ourselves "special". Those feelings of negative "special-ness" are destructive, and can lead to an ever increasing emotional self-isolation.

So, to answer your question, Stubbly, I would say the most "universal" sign that a person is heading into dangerous emotional territory is an uncharacteristic isolation. It's important for us as social creatures to stay connected to other people; not just for support, but also to recognize that there are other people who have the same faults and difficulties as we have. We truly are "all in this together".

[GlitterRose]

ChaosRose:

I believe you're referring to this part of 1st Corinthians 10:13:

"....God is faithful. He will not allow the temptation to be more than you can stand. When you are tempted, he will show you a way out so that you can endure."

(New Living Translation) (bolding added by me)

God always provides an escape route, but we often ignore the exit ramp. I'm not minimizing the pain that precedes a suicide attempt, having made a serious attempt at suicide in my younger days, though in my case I have only myself to blame for ignoring the warning signs as I began to self-destruct.

Why do you assume I'm referring to anything in the bible? I'm talking about something that was said to me during a period of great trauma and loss, by someone who was trying to help, but didn't.

I've heard more than one person use this phrase, and it was always inappropriate. Whatever people choose to believe, the last place you want them to foist it upon you is at your weakest moments.

I get that people "mean well." That doesn't mean they always help. I'm sorry for your loss would have done just nicely. At least it acknowledges that there was a loss.

I'm agnostic. I don't even know that there is a god, least of all that it's Abrahamic or has anything to do with any known religious text. I certainly don't know if it does exist, whether or not it is even concerned with us at all. I think if you go with an omniscient concept, then you assume that this god already knows what we are going to experience, and puts us here, anyway. For all anyone knows, we could be the equivalent of an ant farm.

Whatever people choose to believe for themselves is fine. I'm not trying to say they should believe the way I do. But don't impose it on people at their weakest moments. Not everyone believes the same way, and what you do is not always comforting.

Quite often it's essentially blaming the victim. God offered you an escape route, you just didn't take it. It's fine if you believe that, but then again, maybe there simply isn't a god.

Edited March 25, 2015 by ChaosRose

[White Crane Feather]

Again. Not all sequences repeat. Even with smiley faces.

Tiggs there are finite amount of permutations with only ten digets. Given that pi has been calculated out to 10 trillion digets we probably are safe in assuming that it proaches infinite digets. Granted it's a ratio approaching infinity not really random, it's pretty safe to say in hundred of trillions of combinations of digets all will eventually repeat if you can calculate far enough. If you even have an increasing amount of permutations evey time you add a diget to a sequence. But still any string of digets will eventually repeat if the numbers are random enough. If you find an order to pi, then you will win a Nobel prize so I'm takeing a wild guess it's digets are random enough.

It's the same thing with matter. Assuming the universe is sufficiently deterministic, There are only finite arrangements. even the randomness of quantum mechanics can only be so random that's why things manifest along a bell curve. While things like giant planet sized gold balls can physically exist, there is no natural process for it to exist, so not everything manifests in infinity. ( unless it's possible for something like that to tunnel into existance) but, we do no that our earth and our history and our lives had a probability to exist, so we know under pure or even sufficient deterministic circumstances it will all occure again.

There is no way around it. In an infinite set of random numbers any sequence of digets you can imagine will evenchually arise. With a little math, you can actually calculate the average time it will take you to hit the lottery.

Edited March 25, 2015 by White Crane Feather

[simplybill]

Why do you assume I'm referring to anything in the bible? I'm talking about something that was said to me during a period of great trauma and loss, by someone who was trying to help, but didn't.

I apologize, ChaosRose. I should have written: "I believe they are referring to 1st Corinthians 10:13...".

I should also have added that well-meaning people often lift that verse out its' context, and use it in the wrong way.

And yes, I agree, that verse would be entirely inappropriate to share with someone who is grieving.

[Tiggs]

Tiggs there are finite amount of permutations with only ten digets. Given that pi has been calculated out to 10 trillion digets we probably are safe in assuming that it proaches infinite digets. Granted it's a ratio approaching infinity not really random, it's pretty safe to say in hundred of trillions of combinations of digets all will eventually repeat if you can calculate far enough.

Pi is definitely infinite, given that it's irrational.

There are several examples of irrational numbers which never repeat. For example:

0.1 01 001 0001 00001 000001 0000001 etc.

Your claim would only hold if you can prove that pi is a normal number, normal being a mathematical term for a number where all of the digits within it are evenly distributed.

That really would be worth a Nobel Prize.

If you find an order to pi, then you will win a Nobel prize so I'm takeing a wild guess it's digets are random enough.

Well, that is a wild guess. See above.

There is no way around it. In an infinite set of random numbers any sequence of digets you can imagine will evenchually arise. With a little math, you can actually calculate the average time it will take you to hit the lottery.

Again - depends on the distribution of those numbers.

Since we're here - how long would it take for an infinite number of zeros to appear, then?