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Muslim Extremists Preach Violence in Europe


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#16    Erikl

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Posted 30 November 2004 - 02:31 PM

QUOTE
Your statements over-simpify what is in reality a very global ( everyone having a hand in it), and therefore complicated situation! You are contradicting yourself when you talk about "my government"! And about 'inciting'; do you mean that the Iranian government has declared war on the US?

You mean we should make another revolution, just to make you guys happy? Being too emotional about a subject makes one say funny things


Oh comeon... you know what I'm talking about.
The current Iranian government is dangerous not only to other nations, but also to the Iranians themselves.
I wasn't in favour of the Shah as well, because he oppressed you.
But you've chosen a government which oppress no differently.
And at least the Shah wasn't conducting any terrorist actions around the world, and didn't pose a danger to other countries.

Why do the Iranian government hate Israel, for example?
Israel has a conflict with Arab countries, not the Iranian people.
Iran is not Arabic.
Iranians don't even have the same religion as most Arabs (you are Shiites while most Arabs are Sunnis).
As a matter of fact, most Arabs hate Iran because it is a non-Arab, non-Sunni entity stuck in their back.
The Iranians too have many reasons to dislike the Arabs, after what they did to you in the last 1,300 years and in recent history (1 million Iranians are burried in the middle of desert in the name of Arab unity).
They even oppress youre co-religious Arabs (Saudis oppress Shiites and so did Saddam).

Israel has never done any wrong to Iran.
When we bombed the Iraqi nuclear reactor, we also saved millions of Iranian lives (who do you think Saddam would have used his nukes first? he already chemically sprayed youre citizens... what makes you think he wouldn't have nuked you as well?).
Israel is a long running ally of another Iranian people - the Kurds.
Israel and Iran used to be in exellent relations.
Persians freed the Jewish people from the Babylonian exile.
Parthians defended their Jews when the Romans were slaughtering us in the hundreds of thousands.

The only reason that Iran wants to destroy Israel is because it is run by relgious nuts who see this as a religious goal.

This is but a simple example of how irrational and un-logical the current extremist Iranian government is.
If it will continue with it's current actions (not only against Israel, but other western countries by supporting global terrorism), we and the rest of the west will have no other option but to defend ourselves.

Believe me, Israelis do not hate the Iranian people, and the last thing we wish is to see Iranian blood on our military's hands.
But if we will be attacked, we will have to defend oursleves with everything we got.

You don't have to take my words for it - the Arabs have been trying to do what the current Iranian government is trying for the last 56 years.
They have all been defeated tongue.gif .

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#17    Lottie

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Posted 30 November 2004 - 07:15 PM

QUOTE
Abu Hamza, who lost two hands and an eye in Afghanistan, is in jail now but other extremists from among Britain's two million Muslims continue to preach violence, veiling the message to take advantage of some of Europe's most liberal freedom-of-speech laws.


Deport the lot of them and get rid! devil.gif

I am absoloutely fed up with these scumbags. They live in my country with all the privalidges that our country offers and they spout of their treasonous bullshit. I have siad this before, their is still a law, though not used anymore...pity, where comitting acts of treason are punishable by death...maybe its about time the goverment made an example of Hazma!



#18    zephyr

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Posted 01 December 2004 - 07:19 AM

I'm neither a representative of, nor a spokesman for the Iranian government! I was merely trying to point out the huge misunderstanding that the western media have created around Iran! There are many problems in Iran which the Iranians, more than anybody else would like to see solved, but their efforts are hampered by the wrong and short-sighted policies of the west, which has never hesitated to intervene in the internal affairs of Iran! I suggest you study the contemporary history of Iran to see what I mean! There was Saddam and the Taliban; both extremists created and supported by the west and their local conservative allies who were sworn enemies of Iran! How does anyone expect rerforms to take place in a country which is under constant threat from abroad? A day does not go by in which Iran is either threatened to be bombed, or called all sorts of names devil.gif
I dont see things along the 'hate' lines that some extremists on these forums do! All statements about 'us' and 'them', and Iranians hating Americans and all that crap is nothing but nonsense created for a very ugly purpose, and unfortunately simple minded people easily fall into that trap! rolleyes.gif
Iran attacking any country at this point is simply another illusion! Iran is used as a convenient scapegoat!  As for Iran being dangerous, I think it's much less dangerous than America under Bush or Israel under Sharon! For the moment the warmongers of this world are not Iranian tongue.gif So if you guys are worried about wars, I suggest you do something about your own warmongering leaders and let the Iranians worry about Iran wink2.gif





#19    Erikl

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Posted 01 December 2004 - 10:13 AM

QUOTE
A day does not go by in which Iran is either threatened to be bombed, or called all sorts of names

Same goes for Israel, threatened daily to be wiped out by no other than... Iran!
So give me a break. Iran, since taken over by the Ayatolas, as done nothing but supporting terrorism against Israel and the west, whom they view as infidels and heretics.

QUOTE
There was Saddam and the Taliban; both extremists created and supported by the west and their local conservative allies who were sworn enemies of Iran!

No one justifies world support for Saddam. But you must remember that Israel not only didn't support Iraq back then, but bombed Saddam's nuclear reactor, thus saving you guys from nuclear annihalation (he was already a year into his invasion to Iran).
The Taliban was supported not against Iran, but against the USSR. Although I do believe that was another American mis-judgment.

QUOTE
I dont see things along the 'hate' lines that some extremists on these forums do! All statements about 'us' and 'them', and Iranians hating Americans and all that crap is nothing but nonsense created for a very ugly purpose, and unfortunately simple minded people easily fall into that trap!

Not at all.
You see, we do represent our countries because we choose who will lead us. So we can and do speak about "us" when we talk about our governments.
The Iranian people, on the other hand, as little to no say in it's government - youre so called "free" elections are nothing but a farce, no unlike the elections that took part in the USSR, Saddamist Iraq, or any other of the so-called "people's republics".

QUOTE
Iran attacking any country at this point is simply another illusion! Iran is used as a convenient scapegoat!

Oh please, you must be kidding here.
What does the averege Israeli think when he ears the daily call for Israel's destruction, the recruit of suicide bombers squad to destroy Israel and take over Jerusalem, the massive arment of Hezbollah in Lebanon (even though Israel pulled out of Lebanon some 4 years ago), the massive funding for Palestinian terrorist acts, etc.?

Don't play innocent. I've heard free Iranians' view about the government in their homeland, and they all universally agree that it is a criminal and terrorist government.

QUOTE
I think it's much less dangerous than America under Bush or Israel under Sharon!

LOL!
Talking about brainwashing!
w00t.gif

What did Sharon do in his term in government that he is considered to be a "warmonger".
All his reactions were to Palestinian terrorism.
He now has an illiteral disengagement plan from Gaza and some places in Judea and Samaria.
His party, Likud, was the first party to sign peace treaty with Arab country. A PM from that government, Begin, was the one who ordered to bomb the nuclear reactor in Iraq (built by the French, btw) back in 1981, thus saving youre *ss.

But to come to think about it, Iran was calling all Israel's PM warmongers since 1979, so no surprise here.

Only one sentence is left to say:

Free Iran now from the Mullahs! tongue.gif


#20    The Russian Hare

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Posted 01 December 2004 - 03:33 PM

The Taliban was not supported by the West. It didn't even exist until after the Soviet occupation was over. And if Western aid did help Saddam, then it would seem to be an argument for removing him, to rectify past mistakes.

And by the way, both the Taliban and Saddam's Iraq were mortal enemies of Iran. "Warmongering" America  has destroyed both of these threats on Iran's borders.

Edited by Redneck, 01 December 2004 - 03:36 PM.

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#21    Erikl

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Posted 01 December 2004 - 08:39 PM

Indeed you are correct RedNeck.
But pay attention - I did not say "the US supported Saddam", I said "the West supported" (as opposed to the Taliban, which the US did build and trained, btw), becaue US's support to Saddam was not as great as other western, mainly European countries, was.
France and Germany were the main supporters of Saddam both technologically, logistically, and financely during and before the Iran-Iraq war.
Though the US did support Saddam during that war, it had much smaller part in his war efforts against Iran.

On the other hand, other western countries did support him, as I said earlier.
Saddam's planes were french ones (as well as Russian ones, but since Russia was not part of the west, it's part, however many times greater than any other western country, will not be discussed here). The french even built his nuclear reactor, and it was a "Made in Germany" sarin gas used by Saddam to genocide 180,000 Kurds in 1987-1988 (during the Iran-Iraq war).

Redneck also made a point about the fact that even though the US supported both the Taliban (against the Russians) and to a smaller degree Saddam's regime, they did took out both of them.

Iran, however, seem to have no problem conducting business with the Russians these days, even though Russia did arm and financed almost every Arab military untill 1991, and practically built Saddam's military during the Iran-Iraq war. It were mainly a Russian made weapons which killed almost million Iranians in that war.
And yet, the Ayatolas seem to have no problem conducting business with the same people who once supported their most bitter enemies (and not too long, btw).

This only emphesize my point - the current Iranian regime hates the west (and Israel as the sole representive of the west in the Middle East) because it sees West's destrcution as a religious aspiration.

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#22    Asterix

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Posted 01 December 2004 - 09:08 PM

QUOTE
Redneck also made a point about the fact that even though the US supported both the Taliban (against the Russians) and to a smaller degree Saddam's regime, they did took out both of them


I'd like to point out though that US's involvment in Afghanistan in the 80's was what led to the outbreak of terrorist groups later on, at least indirectly. Even Al-Qaeda is, up to a limited degree, a "US policy in Afghanistan" -spawn.

US in Afghanistan thought to "check" the Russians, or to put it other way, to revenge the policy Soviet Union followed during Vietnam. That is, getting involved without involvment, by helping the North Vietnamese. There was this American politician, can't remember who, that had graphically described it as "Sowing some sh** in the Soviets' backyard"..

Anyway, problem is that USA (CIA in this case) didn't know anything about Afghanistan and the local warlords. As a result, CIA was depending almost entirely on the Pakistani Intelligence services for info and advice. And of course, the Pakistanis distrubuted the massive American funds not to groups that would fight the Russians (and therefore serve better the American interests) but to fundamentalist Islamic groups, that were keeping busy fighting rather each other. In an 8-year period, if I remember well almost 3 billion $ were funneled to the Afghan islamic groups. Stinger missiles were also supplied, of which more than 100 were "missing" after the war. (It is almost a certainty that Al-Qaeda got its hands on some or most of them) When the Soviets packed their stuff and went home, there was a ready-made vast infrastructure of...professional terrorists, who were practically trained with American taxpayers' money...

Edited by Asterix, 01 December 2004 - 09:09 PM.

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#23    zephyr

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Posted 02 December 2004 - 08:57 AM

QUOTE
The Taliban was not supported by the West. It didn't even exist until after the Soviet occupation was over. And if Western aid did help Saddam, then it would seem to be an argument for removing him, to rectify past mistakes

You're wrong! The only reason that the Taliban came to power in Afghanistan was the unconditional support of Pakistan, Saudi Arabia and some of the other Persian Gulf states, and America! This was a scheme to bug Iran originally, which backfired! Because of total ignorance by American policy makers, they didnt understand what kind of monster they were supporting! And this is not a matter of my opinion, but hard facts original.gif



#24    zephyr

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Posted 02 December 2004 - 09:12 AM

QUOTE
You see, we do represent our countries because we choose who will lead us. So we can and do speak about "us" when we talk about our governments.
What I find really horrendous is people being proud of electing someone like Sharon as their leader blink.gif
QUOTE
Free Iran now from the Mullahs! 
Sorry to dissapoint you but I'm not whom you hope I would be and as I said you're too emotional to think logically and are constantly mixing up matters and contradicting yourself and stating the obvious! so here I make a similarly simple minded statement and hope that you will finally get what I'm saying:
Free Israel now from war criminals tongue.gif


#25    zephyr

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Posted 02 December 2004 - 09:17 AM

QUOTE
Anyway, problem is that USA (CIA in this case) didn't know anything about Afghanistan and the local warlords. As a result, CIA was depending almost entirely on the Pakistani Intelligence services for info and advice

Oh... at last someone well informed and not blinded by emotions! I agree with your entire post because it's constructed upon facts and not the current, usual and tiring propaganda thumbsup.gif


#26    Erikl

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Posted 02 December 2004 - 11:50 AM

QUOTE
What I find really horrendous is people being proud of electing someone like Sharon as their leader

LOL!
An Iranian criticise Israelis' choice of a PM....
What I find really weird here is that someone is actually defending the Ayatolahs by critcising democratic countries' choices.
If you consider Sharon to be a war criminal, than I guess that would make youre government basically Satan on earth (if we go by that logic), eh? blink.gif


QUOTE
Sorry to dissapoint you but I'm not whom you hope I would be and as I said you're too emotional to think logically and are constantly mixing up matters and contradicting yourself and stating the obvious!

Oh please give me a break like youre not being emotionally involved here too, right?
Tell me please where did I contradict myself.
I think since the day we've met eachother through this board, I repeatedly stated that my only problem with the Iranian people is their radical, irrational, dangerous regime since 1979.
I also put here a number of facts which you comfortably ignored tongue.gif.

QUOTE
so here I make a similarly simple minded statement and hope that you will finally get what I'm saying:
Free Israel now from war criminals

So youre basically agree that the current Iranian regime is a war criminal (this is the conclusion which stems from youre analogy of "war criminals" with "mullahs" tongue.gif)? grin2.gif
Good to know not all hope is lost.
I did actually know what you are trying to say from the beginning, I just didn't agree with you.

And you still didn't answer my number one question - why the current Iranian regime hates Israel?
I gave you a number of rational reasons for it not to hate us at all.
I also gave you an of example where even after the current Iranian government started lecturing for our destruction, we saved Iran (by destroying Saddam's nuclear reactor).

IMO, there is no rational reason for this hatred of the current Iranian regime. It is originated from hatred to the west in general.
Such hatred whats makes us so fearfull of a nuclear Ayatolah.
If Iran's hostility towards other countries does not originate from rational thinking, but from emotional, religious aspirations, how can we deal with such a nut case?

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#27    zephyr

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Posted 02 December 2004 - 12:41 PM


I have tried hard to explain a lot of things to you, but your simple refusal to understand them is really making me tired and bored with you! What is going on in Iran is the result of years of interference for short term interests by a lot of parties! To blame the Iranian people uniquely and by closing your eyes and mind, you're making the common mistake made by so many ill-informed people! I refere you to my previous posts and suggest strongly that you  learn about contemporary Iranian history, and the constant prevention of democratic moves in Iran by The English, the Russians and the Americans (through coup d'etats, supporting local dictators and the like)! I dont frankly care at all by what name you might call the Iranian government, and believe me the Iranians know better than anybody on earth what their government is like! Your most basic contradiction is the fact that you consider the Iranian government as a dictatorship, but at the same time you're blaming the people for having such regime! this is just to mention one of your contradictory statement! Another big mistake is the assumption that Iranians hate the West! If there is one country in the ME; and soon in the world, where there is no genuine hatred for the West by its people, is Iran! What slogans one hears, are just and exactly that; slogans! Swimming in one's ignorance and emotions and having strong biased opinions, can only lead to more misunderstanding and trouble, something to be avoided at all costs! So I suggest you calm down and learn about the real sources of trouble in the ME! And about Israel having saved the Iranians from the lunatic's atomic bomb, I must say even if Israel did it for the Iranians ( which I doubt), they owed us one anyway for having saved the Jews from extinction at the time of Darius the Great (you know the story)! Oh about your first question; I'm not a spokesman for the Iranian government to tell you why they hate Israel, but my guess is that they do it for the same reasons that the Israeli government hates them!


#28    Asterix

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Posted 02 December 2004 - 02:01 PM

The problem with the Western policy in ME, is that the administrations of the past 100 years (I start from the WW1 events) have a fundamental misunderstanding of the way things work there. Especially when it comes to ethnic backgrounds and motivation of the population.

Very quickly I point out:
1) Doublecrossing of Arabs by French and British (The T.E Lawrence story). In an era where colonization was still up and running, in 1917 that is, it seemed preposterous for the British to give up their ME strongholds. As a result, Arabs grew bitter (and countryless)
2) Churchill was a good politician and a patriot, but these 2 put together can make someone who, for the sake of Britain, can cause lots of problems to world politics. He was responsible for creating Jordan and Iraq and for placing the Hashemite rulers, Abdullah and Faisal, on their respective thrones in Amman and Baghdad.  Problem is, especially in Iraq's case, that it was a clear folly to try to create a country out of so many different ethnic entities. Kurds in the north, Siites, Sunnites...You can't create a country by just drawing lines around oil wells, Baghdad and Basra... (Funnily enough, have you noticed on the map how "straight" lines are those of Jordan and Iraq?)
3) State of Israel. With full acceptance of the fact that Jews should have a country, it is a fair claim that Israel should rightfully claim its right to exist. But, nevertheless, the planning was appalling. Perhaps because of the atrocities of WW2, there was bit of a haste in the designing of the new state, therefore nobody thought to ponder on the future and on the needs of other populations of the area too.
4) US involvment in Iran, Afghanistan, Middle East in general. See my post above..

Edited by Asterix, 02 December 2004 - 02:02 PM.

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#29    bathory

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Posted 02 December 2004 - 02:09 PM

the US in general has been pretty damn nice to the middle east though
the only real negative i can think of is US support of Israel, but its not as though the arab countries give a damn about the palestinians, its more that they give a damn about the jews:)


#30    The Russian Hare

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Posted 02 December 2004 - 02:22 PM

QUOTE(zephyr @ Dec 2 2004, 03:57 AM)
QUOTE
The Taliban was not supported by the West. It didn't even exist until after the Soviet occupation was over. And if Western aid did help Saddam, then it would seem to be an argument for removing him, to rectify past mistakes

You're wrong! The only reason that the Taliban came to power in Afghanistan was the unconditional support of Pakistan, Saudi Arabia and some of the other Persian Gulf states, and America! This was a scheme to bug Iran originally, which backfired! Because of total ignorance by American policy makers, they didnt understand what kind of monster they were supporting! And this is not a matter of my opinion, but hard facts original.gif

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No, you're wrong. The Taliban wasn't formed until after the Soviet occupation had ended. Before that there were six or seven Mujahideen groups fighting the Soviets(as well as each other), but the Taliban as such did not exist. It came out of Pakistan, with the help of Pakistani intelligence, after the Soviets pulled out. By that time America had forgotten about Afghanistan. America gave very paltry support to the Taliban's enemies, the Northern Alliance/United Front before 2001. The Russians, Indians and Iranians gave more substantial aid.

Edited by Redneck, 02 December 2004 - 02:27 PM.

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