Shibolet Posted June 9, 2015 #1 Share Posted June 9, 2015 (edited) To be a Christian - Acts 26:28 A few "Jews-for-Jesus" in another forum have tried by persuasion to make me understand that to believe that Jesus is Christ, I don't have to become a Christian but to do it as a Jew. This week I was reading the NT when I came about the private discourse of Paul before king Agripa. At the end of the discourse, Paul asked if king Agripa believed the Prophets. King Agripa was seriously taken over by the charisma of Paul and said to him, Paul, you have indeed almost persuaded me to be a Christian. (Acts 26:28) Agripa knew that, by giving in to Paul's struggle to persuade him, he would become a Christian and not a Jew who believed like a Christian. Paul answered and said, "I would to God that not only you but all that hear me this day, were both almost and altogether such as I am: A Christian there is. (Acts 26:29) Prophet Elijah had the same problem at his time with the "Jews-for-Baal." They would insist on holding unto their Jewish identity while sacrificing to the Baal Molech of the Canaanites. Prophet Elijah would insist with them to stop straddling the issue and decide once and for all to follow either the Lord or Baal. (Kings 18:21) As Jesus once said, no one can serve two masters. (Mat.6:24) And in the case of Elijah, it had to be either the Lord or Baal. Since they just couldn't decide, Elijah took them down to the brook Kishon and slew 850 of the prophets of Baal. (I Kings 18:19,40) Edited June 9, 2015 by Shibolet 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+and-then Posted June 9, 2015 #2 Share Posted June 9, 2015 To be a Christian - Acts 26:28 A few "Jews-for-Jesus" in another forum have tried by persuasion to make me understand that to believe that Jesus is Christ, I don't have to become a Christian but to do it as a Jew. This week I was reading the NT when I came about the private discourse of Paul before king Agripa. At the end of the discourse, Paul asked if king Agripa believed the Prophets. King Agripa was seriously taken over by the charisma of Paul and said to him, Paul, you have indeed almost persuaded me to be a Christian. (Acts 26:28) Agripa knew that, by giving in to Paul's struggle to persuade him, he would become a Christian and not a Jew who believed like a Christian. Paul answered and said, "I would to God that not only you but all that hear me this day, were both almost and altogether such as I am: A Christian there is. (Acts 26:29) Prophet Elijah had the same problem at his time with the "Jews-for-Baal." They would insist on holding unto their Jewish identity while sacrificing to the Baal Molech of the Canaanites. Prophet Elijah would insist with them to stop straddling the issue and decide once and for all to follow either the Lord or Baal. (Kings 18:21) As Jesus once said, no one can serve two masters. (Mat.6:24) And in the case of Elijah, it had to be either the Lord or Baal. Since they just couldn't decide, Elijah took them down to the brook Kishon and slew 850 of the prophets of Baal. (I Kings 18:19,40) Interesting point. I suppose that if a Jew believed that Christ WAS the waited messiah then it would be problematic. But the only real problem I can perceive is the idea of blood sacrifice in the Temple. If that comes back into the observance it would be a direct challenge to Christ's sacrifice once for all men. Christians believe that in the "last days" during the Tribulation - aka: "the time of Jacob's trouble" that along with the rest of the planet the Jews will lose about 2/3 of their people and the remnant will finally recognize Jesus when he returns to save that remnant from sure destruction. I understand that Orthodox Jews have a REAL hatred of Christians. What a day it will be when they see their messiah! 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shibolet Posted June 9, 2015 Author #3 Share Posted June 9, 2015 Interesting point. I suppose that if a Jew believed that Christ WAS the waited messiah then it would be problematic. But the only real problem I can perceive is the idea of blood sacrifice in the Temple. If that comes back into the observance it would be a direct challenge to Christ's sacrifice once for all men. Christians believe that in the "last days" during the Tribulation - aka: "the time of Jacob's trouble" that along with the rest of the planet the Jews will lose about 2/3 of their people and the remnant will finally recognize Jesus when he returns to save that remnant from sure destruction. I understand that Orthodox Jews have a REAL hatred of Christians. What a day it will be when they see their messiah! "Their Messiah!!!" I see our Messiah every day through the collective concept of the Messiah. If you read Prophet Habakkuk 3:13, "The Lord goes forth to save His People; to save His anointed one." That's what the Messiah is, the anointed one of the Lord. The Messiah cannot be an individual because, the individual is born, lives his span of life and dies. Are we supposed to expect a new Messiah in every generation?Obviously not. The Messiah is not supposed to physically die but to remain as a People before the Lord forever. (Jer. 31:35-37) The idea that Jesus was the Messiah was fabricated by Paul as he himself revealed that secret to his disciple Timothy. (II Tim. 2:8) Then, Paul fabricated another paradox by claiming that Jesus was the son of God without a biological father. (Acts 9:20) Which is akin to the Greek myth of the demigod which is the son of a god with an earthly woman. Last but not least, the long expected individual Messiah is supposed to come from the Tribe of Judah, wherefrom came Joseph but, the NT committed the blunder to deny that Jesus was a biological son of Joseph. It means that Jesus was a Jew without a Tribe in Israel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Br Cornelius Posted June 9, 2015 #4 Share Posted June 9, 2015 This thread should be in the Spirituality, religion and Beliefs board, it has nothing to do with spirituality vs skeptism. Would a moderator please move it. Br Cornelius Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Galahad Posted June 10, 2015 #5 Share Posted June 10, 2015 Interesting And Then.... Interesting because they did loose so many in WW2. Then there's the fig tree parable... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rlyeh Posted June 10, 2015 #6 Share Posted June 10, 2015 As long as these "masters" don't give mutually exclusive commands, you can serve as many as time permits. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
White Crane Feather Posted June 10, 2015 #7 Share Posted June 10, 2015 I suppose the native American people are screwed. God seems to only favor people from the Middle East and religions surrounding the Mediterranean. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GlitterRose Posted June 10, 2015 #8 Share Posted June 10, 2015 (edited) On the no one can serve two masters thing... Jesus...No one can come to the Father except through me. Now you can argue the existence of an historical Jesus. If you believe he existed, then you can argue whether or not he was really the Messiah promised in scripture. There are gnostics who believe he was not from YHVH, but from the unknowable All, the true God. They believe he cloaked himself in the prophecy in order to send the message of mercy, because YHVH had set things out of balance with an overabundance of severity. Bottom line is if you believe that Jesus existed, was the divine messiah, and the son of YHVH, then you don't brush off YHVH. The entire reason you listen to anything he supposedly said is because you think he was the son of YHVH. If you are Christian, then you serve three aspects of the One. At least so far as most Christians realize. You serve the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. There are certainly more aspects, since the All contains everything, but these are the aspects that most Christians will identify with. Even if they do not espouse the idea of a trinity, you will still hear them talk of the Old Testament God (a lot of them certainly cling to Genesis and Leviticus) and the Holy Spirit along with their beloved Jesus. You will even hear them talk of angels and archangels, sometimes claiming to speak in tongues. So although they give lip service to monotheism, they certainly acknowledge many aspects of their one deity. Jews for Jesus are essentially Christians who just cling tighter to the Old Testament than others. They also have a cultural heritage that they continue to honor. Edited June 10, 2015 by ChaosRose Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magnanimus Posted June 10, 2015 #9 Share Posted June 10, 2015 I suppose the native American people are screwed. God seems to only favor people from the Middle East and religions surrounding the Mediterranean. Hey! They knew what they were doing when they walked out our door and over that land bridge--no one made them but themselves. What I'm saying is that actions have consequences. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davros of Skaro Posted June 10, 2015 #10 Share Posted June 10, 2015 I suppose the native American people are screwed. God seems to only favor people from the Middle East and religions surrounding the Mediterranean. That's why Mormon Archeology is an oxymoron. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Podo Posted June 10, 2015 #11 Share Posted June 10, 2015 That's why Mormon Archeology is an oxymoron. I think you mean oxymormon. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ambelamba Posted June 11, 2015 #12 Share Posted June 11, 2015 Hey! They knew what they were doing when they walked out our door and over that land bridge--no one made them but themselves. What I'm saying is that actions have consequences. Wow...that sounds veeeeery empathic... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ambelamba Posted June 11, 2015 #13 Share Posted June 11, 2015 Somewhat off topic, but gotta say it. Many people believe that when bad thing happens to someone he/she deserves it. I told my father about Armenian genocide and his reaction was that they suffered it because they deserved it. Sadly, his attitude is quite typical among Korean men over 55. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IamsSon Posted June 11, 2015 #14 Share Posted June 11, 2015 To be a Christian - Acts 26:28 A few "Jews-for-Jesus" in another forum have tried by persuasion to make me understand that to believe that Jesus is Christ, I don't have to become a Christian but to do it as a Jew. This week I was reading the NT when I came about the private discourse of Paul before king Agripa. At the end of the discourse, Paul asked if king Agripa believed the Prophets. King Agripa was seriously taken over by the charisma of Paul and said to him, Paul, you have indeed almost persuaded me to be a Christian. (Acts 26:28) Agripa knew that, by giving in to Paul's struggle to persuade him, he would become a Christian and not a Jew who believed like a Christian. Paul answered and said, "I would to God that not only you but all that hear me this day, were both almost and altogether such as I am: A Christian there is. (Acts 26:29) Prophet Elijah had the same problem at his time with the "Jews-for-Baal." They would insist on holding unto their Jewish identity while sacrificing to the Baal Molech of the Canaanites. Prophet Elijah would insist with them to stop straddling the issue and decide once and for all to follow either the Lord or Baal. (Kings 18:21) As Jesus once said, no one can serve two masters. (Mat.6:24) And in the case of Elijah, it had to be either the Lord or Baal. Since they just couldn't decide, Elijah took them down to the brook Kishon and slew 850 of the prophets of Baal. (I Kings 18:19,40) So, these Messianic Jews told you, you have to become a Jew? The Messianic organizations I'm familiar with basically try to reach Jews and point out to them why Jesus is the Messiah and that they can accept Him as Messiah while continuing to practice Judaism. I'm not aware of any that try to convert non-Jews to Judaism so they can worship Jesus. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stubbly_Dooright Posted June 12, 2015 #15 Share Posted June 12, 2015 Hey! They knew what they were doing when they walked out our door and over that land bridge--no one made them but themselves. What I'm saying is that actions have consequences. I think it was because, 'food was that way' and 'that big ole ice shelf is from that way and it's not helping us survive' kind of reasoning. But I digress. So they have have consequences of their actions to preserve themselves? Wow...that sounds veeeeery empathic... Did ya mean empathetic? I could be wrong. Somewhat off topic, but gotta say it. Many people believe that when bad thing happens to someone he/she deserves it. I told my father about Armenian genocide and his reaction was that they suffered it because they deserved it. Sadly, his attitude is quite typical among Korean men over 55. Not necessarily so. I remember some well religious figures here in the states were saying the tragedy of those in New Orleans from hurricane Katrina were at fault for their non-belief in God. ( In which, I read further on this, and someone was pointing out how the percentage of Christians were high in this city) 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ambelamba Posted June 12, 2015 #16 Share Posted June 12, 2015 I think it was because, 'food was that way' and 'that big ole ice shelf is from that way and it's not helping us survive' kind of reasoning. But I digress. So they have have consequences of their actions to preserve themselves? Did ya mean empathetic? I could be wrong. Not necessarily so. I remember some well religious figures here in the states were saying the tragedy of those in New Orleans from hurricane Katrina were at fault for their non-belief in God. ( In which, I read further on this, and someone was pointing out how the percentage of Christians were high in this city) Empathetic, you are correct. I wonder if that guy has the gut to tell the Native Americans that their ancestors deserved to be wiped out, during a major pow-wow. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Space Commander Travis Posted June 12, 2015 #17 Share Posted June 12, 2015 Christians believe that in the "last days" during the Tribulation - aka: "the time of Jacob's trouble" that along with the rest of the planet the Jews will lose about 2/3 of their people and the remnant will finally recognize Jesus when he returns to save that remnant from sure destruction. I understand that Orthodox Jews have a REAL hatred of Christians. I think you can probably see why. Fortunately not all Christians do look at things in such an eschatological way. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stubbly_Dooright Posted June 12, 2015 #18 Share Posted June 12, 2015 I wonder if that guy has the gut to tell the Native Americans that their ancestors deserved to be wiped out, during a major pow-wow. Yeah, I wonder too. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
docyabut2 Posted June 13, 2015 #19 Share Posted June 13, 2015 When it comes down to it Jesus was Jewish, but rebelled against the laws, like he said I didn't come to change the laws but add to them. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shibolet Posted July 1, 2015 Author #20 Share Posted July 1, 2015 This thread should be in the Spirituality, religion and Beliefs board, it has nothing to do with spirituality vs skeptism. Would a moderator please move it. Br Cornelius Tell me Cornelius, do you believe in the Christian Messiah or in the Jewish one? I don't think so. Therefore, it has a lot to do with skepticism. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shibolet Posted July 1, 2015 Author #21 Share Posted July 1, 2015 I suppose the native American people are screwed. God seems to only favor people from the Middle East and religions surrounding the Mediterranean. No, they are not. We have brought also to America the knowledge of God. There are more Jews in America than in Israel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shibolet Posted July 1, 2015 Author #22 Share Posted July 1, 2015 So, these Messianic Jews told you, you have to become a Jew? The Messianic organizations I'm familiar with basically try to reach Jews and point out to them why Jesus is the Messiah and that they can accept Him as Messiah while continuing to practice Judaism. I'm not aware of any that try to convert non-Jews to Judaism so they can worship Jesus. No, they didn't. How could they if they are not Jews themselves? "Jews-for-Jesus" or "Messianic Jews" are Christians. A Jew who believes as a Christian can no longer be a Jew. There is no such a thing as a Christian-Jew or a Jewish-Christian. One is either a Jew or a Christian. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shibolet Posted July 1, 2015 Author #23 Share Posted July 1, 2015 When it comes down to it Jesus was Jewish, but rebelled against the laws, like he said I didn't come to change the laws but add to them. And as a Jew, Jesus could not rebel against the Law. Jesus never said that he had come to add to the laws. To change the Law is seen either by reducing or by adding. No difference. But to give you the benefit of the doubt, please, give me the quote when he said that he came to add. If you can't find, it is because it does not exist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XenoFish Posted July 2, 2015 #24 Share Posted July 2, 2015 (edited) All this is over what amounts to nothing more than a human construct. Religion is just a form of government, do as we say and you go to heaven, rebel and its eternal damnation. If they are not like use convert or kill. Religion is such a primitive thing. Edited July 2, 2015 by XenoFish 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Paranoid Android Posted July 2, 2015 #25 Share Posted July 2, 2015 No, they didn't. How could they if they are not Jews themselves? "Jews-for-Jesus" or "Messianic Jews" are Christians. A Jew who believes as a Christian can no longer be a Jew. There is no such a thing as a Christian-Jew or a Jewish-Christian. One is either a Jew or a Christian. Convenient point-Jew: Jesus can't be the Messiah. If he was then Jews would follow him as the Messiah! Christian: But there are Jews who follow Jesus! Jew: They aren't Jews, you can't be a Jew and follow Jesus. Which makes the first argument completely redundant 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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