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The Sahara Desert and Plato's Atlantis


Mario Dantas

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Sahara-Desert-Africa-Satellite-Image.jpg

Larger Sahara image

I wanted to start a thread on the Sahara Desert and Atlantis a long time ago. Call it a vice, call it what you want. I just need to talk about it...

Plato, surprisingly, has a coincidental definition of the Atlantis destruction, both on Critias and Timaeus (sorry about the wearied editing, it was my intention to forward those words as they actually are coincident in the texts):

afterwards sunk by an earthquake, became an impassable barrier

of mud to voyagers sailing from hence to any part of the ocean.

http://classics.mit..../timaeus.1b.txt

But afterwards there occurred violent earthquakes and floods; and in a single day and night of misfortune all your warlike men in a body sank into the earth, and the island

of Atlantis in like manner disappeared in the depths of the sea. For

which reason the sea in those parts is impassable and impenetrable,

because there is a shoal of mud in the way; and this was caused by the subsidence of the island.

http://classics.mit..../critias.1b.txt

Hypothetically, Atlantis demise would have generated a great deal of sediments. See

A 1,000-year sediment record of tsunami recurrence in northern Sumatra

http://www.nature.co...ature07374.html

Somehow, the information that earthquakes generated great shoals of mud was known to Plato. The Sahara is the greatest continental sized pool of sediments on earth (e.g. biogenic sand and dust), and extremely close to Gibraltar.

In fact, Plato's Pillars of Hercules are the northerner boundary of the Sahara, is there a reason for it? Why would Plato posit Atlantis in front of Gibraltar and the Sahara, so to speak?

I know nothing about the Sahara, please enlighten me...

M

Edited by Mario Dantas
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Somehow, the information that earthquakes generated great shoals of mud was known to Plato.

"Somehow?"

Helike

Harte

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Plato's story of Atlantis was, until relatively recently, considered by nearly everyone to be a morality tale but taking him at his word, there would have to be a civilization and culture matching his description in the proper time frame. None are currently known in the Sahara.

However, Plato claims Egyptian priests told him the story, which there is no evidence of, possibly due to the burning of the Library of Alexandria and there are other sources, before and after Plato, hinting at civilization/s far beyond the Pillars.

Herodotus tells of Phoenician trading beyond the Pillars of Hercules

Aristotle describes lands that are fertile, wooded, fruitful with navigable rivers

Theopompus, an island of immense size inhabited by people very different than the Greeks

Strabo speaks of traffic outside the Pillars and hints at cricummnavigation

Diodorus desribes a great country many days' vvoyage through the Atlantic, with navigable rivers, big houses and fruit, That the Phoenicians discovered it many years ago but kept it secret

The list of people and stories of "other" advanced civilizations or maybe what Atlantis really was is quite extensive and we should really not place so much emphasis on Plato's tiny account.

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Diodorus desribes a great country many days' vvoyage through the Atlantic, with navigable rivers, big houses and fruit, That the Phoenicians discovered it many years ago but kept it secret

It's well accepted that the Phoenicians sailed beyond Gibraltar.

Diodorus Siculus' description is of an island "a number of days to the West." An Island that Diodorus knew nothing of himself.

1 But now that we have discussed what relates to the islands which lie within the Pillars of Heracles, we shall give an account of those which are in the ocean. For there lies out in the deep off Libya an island1 of considerable size, and situated as it is in the ocean it is distant from Libya a voyage of a number of days to the west. Its land is fruitful, p147much of it being mountainous and not a little being a level plain of surpassing beauty. 2 Through it flow navigable rivers which are used for irrigation, and the island contains many parks planted with trees of every variety and gardens in great multitudes which are traversed by streams of sweet water; on it also are private villas of costly construction, and throughout the gardens banqueting houses have been constructed in a setting of flowers, and in them the inhabitants pass their time during the summer season, since the land supplies in abundance everything which contributes to enjoyment and luxury. 3 The mountainous part of the island is covered with dense thickets of great extent and with fruit-trees of every variety, and, inviting men to life among the mountains, it has cozy glens and springs in great number. In a word, this island is well supplied with springs of sweet water which not only makes the use of it enjoyable for those who pass their life there but also contribute to the health and vigour of their bodies. 4 There is also excellent hunting of every manner of beast and wild animal, and the inhabitants, being well supplied with this game at their feasts, lack of nothing which pertains to luxury and extravagance; for in fact the sea which washes the shore of the island contains a multitude of fish, since the character of the ocean is such that it abounds throughout its extent with fish of every variety. 5 And, speaking generally, the climate of the island is so altogether mild that it produces in abundance the fruits of the trees and the other seasonal fruits for the larger part of the year, so that it would appear that the island, because of its exceptional felicity, were a dwelling-place of a race of gods and not of men.

20 1 In ancient times this island remained undiscovered because of its distance from the entire inhabited world, but it was discovered at a later period for the following reason. The Phoenicians, who from ancient times on made voyages continually for purposes of trade, planted many colonies throughout Libya and not a few as well in the western parts of Europe. And since their ventures turned out according to their expectations, they amassed great wealth and essayed to voyage beyond the Pillars of Heracles into the sea which men call the ocean. 2 And, first of all, upon the Strait itself by the Pillars they founded a city on the shores of Europe, and since the land formed a peninsula they called the city Gadeira;2 in the city they built many works appropriate to the nature of the region, and among them a costly temple of Heracles,3 and they instituted magnificent sacrifices which were conducted after the manner of the Phoenicians. And it has come to pass that this shrine has been held in an honour beyond the ordinary, both at the time of its building and in comparatively recent days down even to our own lifetime. Also many Romans, distinguished men who have performed great deeds, have offered vows to this god, and these vows they have performed after the completion of their successes.4 3 The Phoenicians, then, while exploring the coast outside the Pillars for the reasons we have stated and while sailing along the shore of Libya, were driven by strong p151winds a great distance out into the ocean. And after being storm-tossed for many days they were carried ashore on the island we mentioned above, and when they had observed its felicity and nature they caused it to be known to all men.5 4 Consequently the Tyrrhenians, at the time when they were masters of the sea, purposed to dispatch a colony to it; but the Carthaginians prevented their doing so, partly out of concern lest many inhabitants of Carthage should remove there because of the excellence of the island, and partly in order to have ready in it a place in which to seek refuge against an incalculable turn of fortune, in case some total disaster should overtake Carthage. For it was their thought that, since they were masters of the sea, they would thus be able to move, households and all, to an island which was unknown to their conquerors.6

Source

Harte

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Theopompus, an island of immense size inhabited by people very different than the Greeks

Are you speaking of Meropis? That was a fictional island meant as a satire/parody of Atlantis. Mentioned by Theopompus in his work Philippica. Or are you referring to another Theopompus?

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Are you speaking of Meropis? That was a fictional island meant as a satire/parody of Atlantis. Mentioned by Theopompus in his work Philippica. Or are you referring to another Theopompus?

I doubt he's referring to some king of Sparta, which means he doesn't know enough about Theopompus' work to go around citing fragments of his work.

This is the sort of thing we can blame on internet "research" -- zooming in on a little picture without the intelligence or experience to appreciate the larger one. Even the Wiki article gets around to mentioning Fox's line about "Theopompus doesn't write history, he writes slander."

...but I'm sure the OP is far more well-versed in ancient literature and a far more well-respected scholar than Robin Lane Fox.

--Jaylemurph

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I read a suggestion somewhere (a book by Peter Ackroyd perhaps?) that Diodorus was referring to the British Isles.

The Sahara, incidentally, was fecund in the Roman-era, that part of Africa was called the bread bowl of Europe IIRC.

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...but I'm sure the OP is far more well-versed in ancient literature and a far more well-respected scholar than Robin Lane Fox.

--Jaylemurph

I can only assume that his knowledge of ancient litterature is as comprehensive as his knowledge of geology. :innocent:

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I can only assume that his knowledge of ancient litterature is as comprehensive as his knowledge of geology. :innocent:

I meant Owf, not the OP. I didn't realize the OP was Mario, or else I wouldn't've bothered posting; it just means this thread will be locked and done within a few days.

--Jaylemurph

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I meant Owf, not the OP. I didn't realize the OP was Mario, or else I wouldn't've bothered posting; it just means this thread will be locked and done within a few days.

--Jaylemurph

His threads are rather predictable, aren't they ? :no:

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I read a suggestion somewhere (a book by Peter Ackroyd perhaps?) that Diodorus was referring to the British Isles.

The Sahara, incidentally, was fecund in the Roman-era, that part of Africa was called the bread bowl of Europe IIRC.

I think the desert was already there long before Roman time.

Egypt was the breadbasket due to their agricultural use of the Nile and its restoration of farnland when it flooded.

This is off the top of my head as well, though.

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"Somehow?"

Helike

Harte

Thanks for the remainder that Helike was "engulfed" by waves, as Atlantis. But was Plato really influenced by this historical fact? Where are the proofs? I guess no one is sure...

For a believer of an Atlantis beyond the Gibraltar, i keep forgetting of Helike (a Freudian slip maybe?). No offense to Mediterranean researchers of Atlantis, btw.

M

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Thanks for the remainder that Helike was "engulfed" by waves, as Atlantis. But was Plato really influenced by this historical fact? Where are the proofs? I guess no one is sure...

For a believer of an Atlantis beyond the Gibraltar, i keep forgetting of Helike (a Freudian slip maybe?). No offense to Mediterranean researchers of Atlantis, btw.

M

Mario did you ever post links to where you posted your 'Greenland is Atlantis" ideas on other websites?

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Plato's story of Atlantis was, until relatively recently, considered by nearly everyone to be a morality tale but taking him at his word, there would have to be a civilization and culture matching his description in the proper time frame. None are currently known in the Sahara.

However, Plato claims Egyptian priests told him the story, which there is no evidence of, possibly due to the burning of the Library of Alexandria and there are other sources, before and after Plato, hinting at civilization/s far beyond the Pillars.

Herodotus tells of Phoenician trading beyond the Pillars of Hercules

Aristotle describes lands that are fertile, wooded, fruitful with navigable rivers

Theopompus, an island of immense size inhabited by people very different than the Greeks

Strabo speaks of traffic outside the Pillars and hints at cricummnavigation

Diodorus desribes a great country many days' vvoyage through the Atlantic, with navigable rivers, big houses and fruit, That the Phoenicians discovered it many years ago but kept it secret

The list of people and stories of "other" advanced civilizations or maybe what Atlantis really was is quite extensive and we should really not place so much emphasis on Plato's tiny account.

Thanks for the info, really appreciated it! But when you say that Plato wrote a tiny account of Atlantis, i disagree. Would anyone even hear other accounts of Atlantis at all? Plato's Atlantis (or the story Solon supposedly brought back from Egypt), Critias states the following, in Timaeus:

Crit. I will tell an old-world story which I heard from an aged man;

for Critias, at the time of telling it, was as he said, nearly ninety

years of age, and I was about ten. Now the day was that day of the

Apaturia which is called the Registration of Youth, at which, according

to custom, our parents gave prizes for recitations, and the poems

of several poets were recited by us boys, and many of us sang the

poems of Solon, which at that time had not gone out of fashion. One

of our tribe, either because he thought so or to please Critias, said

that in his judgment Solon was not only the wisest of men, but also

the noblest of poets. The old man, as I very well remember, brightened

up at hearing this and said, smiling: Yes, Amynander, if Solon had

only, like other poets, made poetry the business of his life, and

had completed the tale which he brought with him from Egypt, and had

not been compelled, by reason of the factions and troubles which he

found stirring in his own country when he came home, to attend to

other matters, in my opinion he would have been as famous as Homer

or Hesiod, or any poet.

http://classics.mit..../timaeus.1b.txt

But i understood your point. There must be numerous stories (and others were lost) mingled with Atlantis by other ancient writers.

M

Edited by Mario Dantas
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After 4.5 Billion years (estimated earth's age):

More than 99 percent of all species, amounting to over five billion species,[32] that ever lived on Earth are estimated to be extinct.[33][34] Estimates on the number of Earth's current species range from 10 million to 14 million,[35] of which about 1.2 million have been documented and over 86 percent have not yet been described.[36]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abiogenesis

What happened to all those creatures? At this rate i guess we'll end up with no species at all...

But i wanted to call attention to the fact that the SAhara desert has a gigantic amount of biogenic material in its dust:

A biogenic substance is a substance produced by life processes. It may be either constituents, or secretions, of plants or animals. A more specific name for these substances is biomolecules.

Examples

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biogenic_substance

HusarFig6.gif

Scanning electron micrograph of Sahara dust; b. Chemical composition of deposited Sahara dust (Barac, 1901).

All those elements (apart from the clearly organics e.g. plants and animals) are considered to be produced from biogenese. Isn't it a great coincidence that all over the Saharan desert, ancient fossils and remains of ancient life are found so profusely?

M

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Before someone corrects me, the process isn't biogenesis but biomineralization:

Biomineralization is the process by which living organisms produce minerals, [2]often to harden or stiffen existing tissues. Such tissues are called mineralized tissues. It is an extremely widespread phenomenon; all six taxonomic kingdoms contain members that are able to form minerals, and over 60 different minerals have been identified in organisms.[3][4][5] Examples include silicates in algae and diatoms, carbonates in invertebrates, and calcium phosphates andcarbonates in vertebrates. These minerals often form structural features such as sea shells and the bone in mammals and birds. Organisms have been producing mineralised skeletons for the past 550 million years. Other examples include copper, iron and gold deposits involving bacteria. Biologically-formed minerals often have special uses such as magnetic sensors in magnetotactic bacteria (Fe3O4), gravity sensing devices (CaCO3, CaSO4, BaSO4) and iron storage and mobilization (Fe2O3•H2O in the protein ferritin).

https://en.wikipedia...omineralization

M

Edited by Mario Dantas
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Apart from the quartz, in existence there, the rest of the Sahara sands and dust was once actual live beings one way or another (that is either plant or animal).

How come all those grains of sand and dust became so uniform and small?

A coast to coast blanket of sand over Africa, starting in Gibraltar and extending until Taklimakan arid region, as one can interpret from this distribution of arid land map:

sahara-desert-map.gif

M

Edited by Mario Dantas
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I meant Owf, not the OP. I didn't realize the OP was Mario, or else I wouldn't've bothered posting; it just means this thread will be locked and done within a few days.

--Jaylemurph

I just looked up and a thread about Alien's constructing the pyramids has been up for 135 pages?

Give it a break man!

343riae.jpg

M

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I can only assume that his knowledge of ancient litterature is as comprehensive as his knowledge of geology. :innocent:

Now that was funny, but one really has not to be versed in all the disciplines he wishes to address, especially within a holistic kind of understanding. A multidisciplinary approach perhaps needs more logic than knowledge...

M

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Morocco45.jpg

Fossil abundance can only mean one thing, quick burial with sediments...

People lived on the edge of the desert thousands of years ago[7] since the last ice age. The Sahara was then a much wetter place than it is today. Over 30,000 petroglyphs of river animals such as crocodiles[8] survive, with half found in the Tassili n'Ajjer in southeast Algeria. Fossils ofdinosaurs, including Afrovenator, Jobaria and Ouranosaurus, have also been found here. The modern Sahara, though, is not lush in vegetation, except in the Nile Valley, at a few oases, and in the northern highlands, where Mediterranean plants such as the olive tree are found to grow. The region has been this way since about 1600 BCE, after shifts in the Earth's axis increased temperatures and decreased precipitation.[9]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sahara

The end of the last Ice age is kind of a scientific "sacred" initial threshold for the SAhara to come into existence, which might explain what Plato was talking about when affirming that:

[...]nine thousand was the sum of years which had elapsed[...]

http://classics.mit..../critias.1b.txt

M

Edited by Mario Dantas
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Here is a paper that summarizes many modern recommendations to flood the interior of the Sahara with sea water from either the Mediterranean or the Atlantic side.

http://www.wdf.org/g...patoryPaper.pdf

Thanks!

In 1992, Schmalz retired as Professor Emeritus of Geoscience, having served 32 years as a faculty member of The Pennsylvania State University’s Department of Geology and Geophysics.7 In the February 1976 issue of the College of Earth & Mineral Sciences’ Earth and Mineral Sciences (Volume 45, No. 5) Schmalz postulated with “In Search of Atlantis” that a fabled lost civilization, antecedent to all other Mediterranean Sea Basin societies, once actually existed in the region northwest of the extant city of Gabes in southern Tunisia.

M

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Mario did you ever post links to where you posted your 'Greenland is Atlantis" ideas on other websites?

We'll take your continual avoidance to answering this as proof you never did as you said you did - something not at all unexpected!

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Given 99% of all life that has existed on Earth is extinct, we should be literally falling over fossils, we're not. fossilization is a staggeringly rare occurrence.

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