Catholic Churches Recognizes Palestine

[Dark_Grey]

http://rt.com/news/269983-vatican-palestine-first-treaty/

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/27/world/middleeast/vatican-palestinian-state.html?_r=0

http://www.nbcnews.com/news/mideast/vatican-treaty-recognizes-state-palestine-n382341

The Vatican officially recognized a Palestinian state on Friday by signing a treaty and said it hoped the step would promote peace with Israel.

Vatican Foreign Minister Paul Gallagher said he hoped the Holy See's recognition "may in some way be a stimulus to bringing a definitive end to the long-standing Israeli-Palestinian conflict."

He signed the treaty with his Palestinian counterpart, Riad al-Malki, and said it could be a model for other Middle Eastern countries.

Israel expressed its disappointment last month when the Vatican announced a final agreement on the treaty, regulating the Catholic Church in Palestinian territories.

Here we go: the world continues to move forward while Israel digs in it's heels. Not to single them out, but when they say they want a "two state" solution, they don't really want a two-state solution...

[Imaginarynumber1]

Israel has never actually wanted a two-state solution. Their idea of two states are israel and israel.

[Occult1]

But the Christian Zionists won't care.

Edited June 26, 2015 by Phenix20

[bubblykiss]

So they recognize it as a target....for my next crusade?

Because I got a magic donkey and am ready for adventure.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_the_Hermit

[Sir Wearer of Hats]

But the Christian Zionists won't care.

The Christian Zionists don't recognise Catholicism as an arm of Christianity.

[+and-then]

The problem I have with any entity attempting to force "peace" on that region is that they ignore - blatantly - the justifiable concerns Israelis have for their defense. The Palestinian leadership have never moved one iota in their demand for the Jewish state to be removed from all Palestinian land. If Israel retreats under international pressure from all settlements and leaves the Jordan valley then every square inch of it will be occupied by Hamas and others - reinforced and hardened for battle so that they can take the REST of "the Palestinian nation" back from the Jews. No one here at UM is dumb enough not to understand this yet many still support the Palestinians. Be careful what you wish for...

[+and-then]

But the Christian Zionists won't care.

Actually we care a great deal. You see, for all the demonizing of CZ's, the truth is that we simply believe that the descendants of Jacob were predicted to return to the historical home of their ancestors AND that they have every right to do so. That really is all that Zionism is about. The pope seems to genuinely believe that by adding pressure to Israel it will expedite a peaceful resolution to this situation. If he really believes this then I have less confidence in his rationality. No nation in such jeopardy from it's enemies would unilaterally retreat and allow those enemies to entrench into a better position from which to attack. The fact that the world is coalescing against them is no surprise - it was predicted a few thousand years ago. The fight to kick them out into another diaspora will never succeed. If it did then God's word would be proven untrue. This is a spiritual war as much as a physical or political one. The bloodshed proceeding from it will be quite real though.

[+OverSword]

But the Christian Zionists won't care.

That's true.

So the Catholic church undermining Jews....Huh.....that's brand new. But they asked for it right? After all they killed Jesus. Dirty rats.

And because I just know there are people that are stupid enough to not get it, that's called being cynical.

[+OverSword]

The Christian Zionists don't recognize Catholicism as an arm of Christianity.

Catholics are the ones that don't recognize themselves as an arm of Christianity, my friend never stops drilling that into my head. "I'm a catholic, not a Christian" she says again and again. I agree with her since they have so many rituals and beliefs which are counter to how Jesus taught.

But to be clear, I don't really count myself as a christian zionist because I definitely don't live the life style required. Last time I read the sermon on the mount I realized that I'm doomed. DOOMED I TELL YOU

[Occult1]

Catholics are the ones that don't recognize themselves as an arm of Christianity, my friend never stops drilling that into my head. "I'm a catholic, not a Christian" she says again and again. I agree with her since they have so many rituals and beliefs which are counter to how Jesus taught.

Aren't the Christian Zionists fixated on the old testament instead of the new though?

It doesn't seem very 'Christian' to me when you become an apologetic for everything the Zionists of Israel do in the name of the ''Holy Land''.

Edited June 27, 2015 by Phenix20

[SHaYap]

There's a massive blurred crevice of thought there between Christian Zionists and Judaic Zionists which is why the subject of 'religion' is beyond academic comprehension here :

Professor Israel Shahak

about Jewish "Religion"

Book Review

...

Thus, Israel Shahak's book "Jewish History, Jewish Religion: The Weight of 3,000 Years" is all the more important for being a document by a aknowledgeable Jew -- a Jewish "insider" -- about the beliefs and behavior of his fellow Jews. Born in Warsaw in 1933, Shahak spent a portion of his childhood in the concentration camp in Belsen, from which he immigrated to Palestine in 1945. He grew up in Israel, served in the Israeli military, and became a chemistry professor. Like all Israelis, he became fluent in Hebrew. He also became acclimated to the peculiar moral atmosphere of Israeli society: a combination of overweening arrogance and deceit, a mixture of pugnacious self-righteousness and duplicity.

Unlike his fellow Israelis, however, Professor Shahak is deeply troubled by this peculiar atmosphere. Whereas the Jews around him take it for granted that the goyim on whom they depend for economic, military, and diplomatic support are too stupid ever to figure out what the Jews think about them and say about them behind their backs and plan to do to them when they can, and too sheeplike ever to take effective action if they do figure it out, he worries. He remembers that the Romans figured it out, and they consequently sacked Jerusalem and ended their cult in Palestine. He remembers that the Germans figured it out, and that's why he became an involuntary tenant in a concentration camp. He's worried that if his fellow Jews continue behaving as they always have, they will get themselves into some really serious trouble -- again.

...

In general, the rabbis have taught their fellow Jews that their Gentile neighbors are spiritually and morally unclean; that they are subhuman, on a level with the beasts of the field; and that they hate Jews and must be hated in return. Jews are taught that the Christian religion is a religion fit only for animals, and that its founder, Jesus, was the son of a prostitute and is presently immersed in a pit of boiling excrement in hell.

...

• biblebelievers.org.au link
  

Jewish History, Jewish Religion:

The Weight of Three Thousand Years

By Professor Israel Shahak

Foreword:

Sometime in the late 1950s, that world-class gossip and occasional historian, John F. Kennedy, told me how, in 1948, Harry S. Truman had been pretty much abandoned by everyone when he came to run for president. Then an American Zionist brought him two million dollars in cash, in a suitcase, aboard his whistle-stop campaign train. 'That's why our recognition of Israel was rushed through so fast.' As neither Jack nor I was an antisemite (unlike his father and my grandfather) we took this to be just another funny story about Truman and the serene corruption of American politics.

Unfortunately, the hurried recognition of Israel as a state has resulted in forty-five years of murderous confusion, and the destruction of what Zionist fellow travellers thought would be a pluralistic state - home to its native population of Muslims, Christians and Jews, as well as a future home to peaceful European and American Jewish immigrants, even the ones who affected to believe that the great realtor in the sky had given them, in perpetuity, the lands of Judea and Sameria. Since many of the immigrants were good socialists in Europe, we assumed that they would not allow the new state to become a theocracy, and that the native Palestinians could live with them as equals. This was not meant to be. I shall not rehearse the wars and alarms of that unhappy region. But I will say that the hasty invention of Israel has poisoned the political and intellectual life of the USA, Israel's unlikely patron.

• The book online here > abbc.net link
  

I have serious doubts and have had for a long time that any of this or ever was in regards to having anything to do with 'Religion'

Some major lobby representatives that has much to gain from the American Defense Spending would find no better opportune or sale pitch at the time than 'Protecting Israel'

~

Edited June 27, 2015 by third_eye

[+and-then]

Aren't the Christian Zionists fixated on the old testament instead of the new though?

It doesn't seem very 'Christian' to me when you become an apologetic for everything the Zionists of Israel do in the name of the ''Holy Land''.

That's because you - and to be fair - MOST who rail against CZ's - don't take the time to listen to what most CZ's SAY about their beliefs. First, we absolutely do not give precedence of OT over NT. Christ came to make all things new BUT the central tenet of Zionism has nothing to do with the politics of the modern state of Israel for most CZ's. It is about belief that God gave that land to the descendants of Jacob (Israel) and that they have an absolute right to inhabit it. There is some disagreement on exactly how much land constitutes "Eretz Israel". Some believe they are entitled to the boundaries spoken of in Genesis (from the river of Egypt to the Euphrates and from southern Syria to northern S.A. but others believe they only will regain it all once they have received their messiah in the last days.

As a Christian Zionist I absolutely do not feel the need to defend the secular government of this state against all accusations. They are certainly a grasping, lying and potentially evil government - exactly like all other governments on this planet. But when it comes to the right of the people of Israel to make that land their home, I would offer my own tired, beat up body to advance that cause. In fact I'd do that before I'd attempt to help my own current government. However, when the IDF goes overboard and brutalizes children or humiliates old or sick people, I believe they should be held accountable. The problem most have with CZ's isn't what we actually stand for, it's what they stand for - the absolute destruction of a Jewish state in Palestine. Those who will immediately deny this need to then explain why they push for the implementation (unilaterally) of an enemy state next to Israel without any regard to the plainly spoken aims of that new state - the destruction of the state of Israel. They will not answer this - at least not truthfully. The Palestinians have never, not once, said they will accept a Jewish state in Palestine. They CANNOT as good Muslims do this. It would be directly speaking against the Qur'an.

[Occult1]

Christ came to make all things new BUT the central tenet of Zionism has nothing to do with the politics of the modern state of Israel for most CZ's.

The central tenet of Zionism has everything to do with the politics of the modern state of Israel. For it is used by the Zionists as a justification for their policies.

It is about belief that God gave that land to the descendants of Jacob (Israel) and that they have an absolute right to inhabit it.

That's because of a fundamentalist interpretation of the OT. It is symbolic. The 'Promised Land' is not of this world, it is an ideal.

It's interesting to know that there are more Evangelical protestants in the United States who hold such a belief than American Jews:

http://www.pewresear...-jewish-people/

Those who will immediately deny this need to then explain why they push for the implementation (unilaterally) of an enemy state next to Israel without any regard to the plainly spoken aims of that new state - the destruction of the state of Israel.

Nonsense. This gets repeated over and over again by those who wish to maintain the status quo.

They will not answer this - at least not truthfully. The Palestinians have never, not once, said they will accept a Jewish state in Palestine. They CANNOT as good Muslims do this. It would be directly speaking against the Qur'an.

How Many Times Must The Palestinians Recognize Israel?

Edited June 27, 2015 by Phenix20

[RoofGardener]

I cannot read the article you have cited, Phenix, because Haa'Retz is subscription-only.

And Then is correct; Phenix20. Once a land becomes Muslim, it is Muslim forever and can never be surrendered. (which is why the ISIS includes Spain on their map of intended conquests).

Secondly; the PLO (and Yasser Arrafat) may have made grandious speeches TO THE WESTERN MEDIA that they would amend their Charter, and 'recognise' Israel, and Israel's right to peaceful co-existence. HOWEVER... he never made that speech to an ARABIC audience, in Arabic. And... remarkably.... 15 years later, the PLO Charter remains unchanged, and still describes Israel as an illegal state, and the destruction of Israel as a goal of the organisation.

the HAMAS charter says likewise.

[+and-then]

I cannot read the article you have cited, Phenix, because Haa'Retz is subscription-only.

And Then is correct; Phenix20. Once a land becomes Muslim, it is Muslim forever and can never be surrendered. (which is why the ISIS includes Spain on their map of intended conquests).

Secondly; the PLO (and Yasser Arrafat) may have made grandious speeches TO THE WESTERN MEDIA that they would amend their Charter, and 'recognise' Israel, and Israel's right to peaceful co-existence. HOWEVER... he never made that speech to an ARABIC audience, in Arabic. And... remarkably.... 15 years later, the PLO Charter remains unchanged, and still describes Israel as an illegal state, and the destruction of Israel as a goal of the organisation.

the HAMAS charter says likewise.

As I said, they simply will not admit it. I can only conclude they are in denial or that they agree with the cause of the Palestinian knowing the outcome if they are successful.

[Occult1]

I cannot read the article you have cited, Phenix, because Haa'Retz is subscription-only.

Sorry, it seems they have made it a premium article very recently, because I could read it perfectly well just a few days ago.

I would suggest this fact sheet instead: http://imeu.org/arti...-a-jewish-state

And Then is correct; Phenix20. Once a land becomes Muslim, it is Muslim forever and can never be surrendered. (which is why the ISIS includes Spain on their map of intended conquests).

Secondly; the PLO (and Yasser Arrafat) may have made grandious speeches TO THE WESTERN MEDIA that they would amend their Charter, and 'recognise' Israel, and Israel's right to peaceful co-existence. HOWEVER... he never made that speech to an ARABIC audience, in Arabic. And... remarkably.... 15 years later, the PLO Charter remains unchanged, and still describes Israel as an illegal state, and the destruction of Israel as a goal of the organisation.

the HAMAS charter says likewise.

And how many times did Israel recognize the Palestinian state? Oups.

The PLO recognized the state in Israel in 1988 and that was made official in 1993. So to me that has been settled long ago.

But I think you need understand the reluctance of the Palestinian people to recognize Israel as a ''Jewish State'' though.

First off, it would mean endorsing the notion that arab citizens of Israel are second-class. 25% of Israel is non-jewish.

It might also mean giving legitimacy to the Zionist regime for expeling them to Jordan. And what about the refugees who were forced to flee in 1948?

I mean, what if the governement of the United States suddenly asked American Jews and people of various faith to recognize

the country as a ''Christian State'' because they are in majority? I am sure and then would advocate for it but that's an absurd demand.

Edited July 1, 2015 by Phenix20

[kartikg]

Sorry, it seems they have made it a premium article very recently, because I could read it perfectly well just a few days ago.

I would suggest this fact sheet instead: http://imeu.org/arti...-a-jewish-state

And how many times did Israel recognize the Palestinian state? Oups.

The PLO recognized the state in Israel in 1988 and that was made official in 1993. So to me that has been settled long ago.

But I think you need understand the reluctance of the Palestinian people to recognize Israel as a ''Jewish State'' though.

First off, it would mean endorsing the notion that arab citizens of Israel are second-class. 25% of Israel is non-jewish.

It might also mean giving legitimacy to the Zionist regime for expeling them to Jordan. And what about the refugees who were forced to flee in 1948?

I mean, what if the governement of the United States suddenly asked American Jews and people of various faith to recognize

the country as a ''Christian State'' because they are in majority? I am sure and then would advocate for it but that's an absurd demand.

If Palestine state is allowed to form there is very high probability that it will be an Islamic state. Does Palestine be a secular state without the mention of Islam in it's constitution ? Does it have same reservations against nations which are non secular?

[Occult1]

If Palestine state is allowed to form there is very high probability that it will be an Islamic state. Does Palestine be a secular state without the mention of Islam in it's constitution ? Does it have same reservations against nations which are non secular?

There is a number of Palestinian Christians. The Jewish settlers in Palestinian territories would also be part of that state. Palestine can be secular.

Man, I would like Israel to be one inclusive, secular country where everyone has equal rights but the Zionists won't allow it. They insist they are a ''Jewish State''.

Edited July 1, 2015 by Phenix20

[+and-then]

There is a number of Palestinian Christians. The Jewish settlers in Palestinian territories would also be part of that state. Palestine can be secular.

Man, I would like Israel to be one inclusive, secular country where everyone has equal rights but the Zionists won't allow it. They insist they are a ''Jewish State''.

Yeah, that whole genocide thing kind of made them a little leery of trusting others to govern them I know it rankles but hey, maybe the Palis will get lucky someday and get the world to attack Israel for them.

[travelnjones]

The Christian Zionists don't recognise Catholicism as an arm of Christianity.

While i wouldn't call myself a Zionist , i would clarify it as seeing Catholicism as a dialectically inferior form of Christianity.

[kartikg]

There is a number of Palestinian Christians. The Jewish settlers in Palestinian territories would also be part of that state. Palestine can be secular.

Man, I would like Israel to be one inclusive, secular country where everyone has equal rights but the Zionists won't allow it. They insist they are a ''Jewish State''.

Will Palestinian government if at all formed adopt a secular constitution? I ve got no clue on that , if you have any link please share.

[+and-then]

Sorry, it seems they have made it a premium article very recently, because I could read it perfectly well just a few days ago.

I would suggest this fact sheet instead: http://imeu.org/arti...-a-jewish-state

And how many times did Israel recognize the Palestinian state? Oups.

The PLO recognized the state in Israel in 1988 and that was made official in 1993. So to me that has been settled long ago.

But I think you need understand the reluctance of the Palestinian people to recognize Israel as a ''Jewish State'' though.

First off, it would mean endorsing the notion that arab citizens of Israel are second-class. 25% of Israel is non-jewish.

It might also mean giving legitimacy to the Zionist regime for expeling them to Jordan. And what about the refugees who were forced to flee in 1948?

I mean, what if the governement of the United States suddenly asked American Jews and people of various faith to recognize

the country as a ''Christian State'' because they are in majority? I am sure and then would advocate for it but that's an absurd demand.

No one here at UM needs to speak for me. Israel was born as a refuge for world Jewry after WWII devastated the Jewish population of Europe. Palestinians are just Arabs from the region who (for the most part) were squatters on the land of absentee owners. There NEVER has been a "Palestinian State". If Israel opened the borders for the 5 million or so descendants of those who left/were pushed, whatever, then Israel would be a 23 Arab Muslim state immediately after the first election - which, sadly, would be the LAST election. Those who want Israel to go away are like spoiled children stomping their feet for ice cream or candy. Grow up, it ain't EVER gonna happen.

[RoofGardener]

Sorry, it seems they have made it a premium article very recently, because I could read it perfectly well just a few days ago.

I would suggest this fact sheet instead: http://imeu.org/arti...-a-jewish-state

And how many times did Israel recognize the Palestinian state? Oups.

The PLO recognized the state in Israel in 1988 and that was made official in 1993. So to me that has been settled long ago.

Well and good Phenix20, but you seem to have missed my earlier point. Arafat did indeed make a statement in 1993 that the PLO would recognise Israel 'as a state'. He said it in English, to an English-speaking western audience. In 1993 he wrote a letter to the UN, repeating this undertaking.

He never said it to an Arabic audience, nor wrote the decleration in Arabic. The PLO Parliament never ratified the statement, nor the 1993 letters. The PLO Constitution was never updated to remove the sections declaring Israel an illegal state, and commiting the PLO to its destruction.

The PLO, as an organisation, has never recognised Israel, so far as I am aware. Arafat's statement (and his letter) remain unendorsed, and hence effectively in Limbo. The covenant has never been ammended, and hence the commitment of the PLO to the destruction of Israel likewise remains. I am not aware of Mahmoud Abbas - the president of the Palestinian National Council, and Chairman of the PLO, making ANY statements about recognition.

The same is true of more recent statements by Abbas

But I think you need understand the reluctance of the Palestinian people to recognize Israel as a ''Jewish State'' though.

First off, it would mean endorsing the notion that arab citizens of Israel are second-class. 25% of Israel is non-jewish.

It might also mean giving legitimacy to the Zionist regime for expeling them to Jordan. And what about the refugees who were forced to flee in 1948?

It does NOT mean that Arab citizens would be second class; that is pure scare-mongering, and is based on how an Islamic state would (does) treat christians and jews if the roles where reversed. The Arabs are looking at themselves in a mirror, and projecting their own behavior onto the Jews. The reality is that prejudice might exist in inviduals, but in the State structures are secular.

As for the refugees that fled in 1948 - what about them ? They fled the approaching Arab League army. If they want compensation, they should take their complaing to the Arab League. They certainly do not have any "right of return"; no such right has ever been granted to any group of people at any time in history, then or subsequently. The land they fled from - to all intents and purposes - no longer exists.

[MasterFlint]

http://rt.com/news/2...e-first-treaty/

http://www.nytimes.c...state.html?_r=0

http://www.nbcnews.c...lestine-n382341

The Vatican officially recognized a Palestinian state on Friday by signing a treaty and said it hoped the step would promote peace with Israel.

Vatican Foreign Minister Paul Gallagher said he hoped the Holy See's recognition "may in some way be a stimulus to bringing a definitive end to the long-standing Israeli-Palestinian conflict."

He signed the treaty with his Palestinian counterpart, Riad al-Malki, and said it could be a model for other Middle Eastern countries.

Israel expressed its disappointment last month when the Vatican announced a final agreement on the treaty, regulating the Catholic Church in Palestinian territories.

Here we go: the world continues to move forward while Israel digs in it's heels. Not to single them out, but when they say they want a "two state" solution, they don't really want a two-state solution...

They gave back the gaza strip didn't they? The problem with the "2 state solution" is that they want Israel to give up all of their borders and give half of their capital, Jerusalem back to the muslims! Yeah right! Hey why doesn't the U.S. give half of the states back to the Confederacy? That's a 2 state solution that would actually make sense! Not the garbage the world is trying to push on Israel. The Vatican is corrupt and evil, the pope isn't a real pope. What we're watching is the beginning of sorrows unfolding before our eyes.... When that 2 state solution gets passed somehow you'll know the end is here.

[ExpandMyMind]

The Palestinian leadership have never moved one iota in their demand for the Jewish state to be removed from all Palestinian land.

I see you're still beating the same old drums, and then. I wonder how many lies you've squeezed through the cracks since I've been away?