Jump to content
Join the Unexplained Mysteries community today! It's free and setting up an account only takes a moment.
- Sign In or Create Account -

The pyramid of Xochicalco and Atlantis


Dark_Lord

Recommended Posts

Would be interesting to hear your thoughts on this fascinating subject. Could Le Plongeon have been right in his interpretation, after all?

If not an account of the destruction of Atlantis, then what is the meaning of the hieroglyphs that cover the pyramid of Xochicalco, in central Mexico?

Could it be truly a monument to the fate of the lost Continent, built to commemorate the arrival of the "Gods" into Mexico after a great flood?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

In so far as it represents the origin story of a culture we understand perhaps 20% of, then yes why not, it's a tribute to Atlantis.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I didn't know that the ancient Mexicans had read Plato's works. :innocent:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I didn't know that the ancient Mexicans had read Plato's works. :innocent:

Well, perhaps the hieroglyphs on the side of the pyramid are from Plato's works.

Perhaps a better question would be, instead of going with a space-case like Le Plongeon, what do modern professional Mayan specialists have to say about the site and its inscriptions? Ancient Americas is not my own specialty nor even much of an interest to me, but Mayan writing had not even been deciphered in Le Plongeon's time, who's been dead for more than a century (the first breakthrough in translations did not occur until the 1950s, as I recall).

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Well, perhaps the hieroglyphs on the side of the pyramid are from Plato's works.

Perhaps a better question would be, instead of going with a space-case like Le Plongeon, what do modern professional Mayan specialists have to say about the site and its inscriptions? Ancient Americas is not my own specialty nor even much of an interest to me, but Mayan writing had not even been deciphered in Le Plongeon's time, who's been dead for more than a century (the first breakthrough in translations did not occur until the 1950s, as I recall).

1952, revised in 1963 and 1975 by Yuri Knorozov. Others continued the work and in the 80's the syllabry became better understood. Work is still continuing today on changes in syntax over time. I'm on my phone so please just search "Maya script" on Wikipedia to get some decent reference links.

The PBS show NOVA had a decent documentary entitled "Cracking the Maya code". It is available on Youtube.

Edited by Jarocal
  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Since the original site was built sometime after 200 BC, it requires an extremely improbable sequence of events.

For those of you (like me) not familiar with the claims (from the 1850's)

Le Plongeon is also known for his attempted translation of the Troano Codex. The "translation" was viewed with much skepticism at the time, and is considered by all modern authorities to be completely mistaken, based on little more than Le Plongeon's own imagination. He claimed that one section detailed the destruction of the lost continent of Atlantis.

Note that he could not correctly translate the codex, and that 150 years of work has been done on sites and the language since then.

Wikipedia continues...

By the 1880s, while most Mayanists accepted that the Maya civilization postdated Ancient Egypt, Le Plongeon stood by his theories.

So, as could easily be seen just by checking dates, Mayan and Aztec civilizations are far younger than Plato's fictional Atlantis dates.

Le Plongeon insisted that the symbols of Freemasonry could be traced to the ancient Maya, and that this ancient knowledge had come to ancient Egypt from the ancient Maya by way of Atlantis.

The Masons themselves don't believe this, either.

Aguilar seems to be a leading scholar in the field. Folks might find this interesting: http://web.calstatela.edu/faculty/maguila2/Publications/19_mexicon_2002.pdf

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1952, revised in 1963 and 1975 by Yuri Knorozov. Others continued the work and in the 80's the syllabry became better understood. Work is still continuing today on changes in syntax over time. I'm on my phone so please just search "Maya script" on Wikipedia to get some decent reference links.

The PBS show NOVA had a decent documentary entitled "Cracking the Maya code". It is available on Youtube.

I gotcha covered -- here's the links

Ruins of Xochialco (means "house of flowers") http://latinamericanhistory.about.com/od/ancientlatinamerica/p/The-Ruins-Of-Xochicalco.htm

Mesoamerican scripts: http://www.ancientscripts.com/ma_ws.html

Wikipedia on Mayan scripts: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maya_script

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Since the original site was built sometime after 200 BC, it requires an extremely improbable sequence of events.

The Edfu building texts were also composed during the 2nd Century BC, and similarly speak of an "Island of Creation", the abode of the primeval gods, that was destroyed in a time beyond recorded history. This is also very much reminiscent of the Atlantis story.

All over the world we have deluge myths surviving for thousands of years. What makes it so unlikely for the pyramid of Xochicalco to record (albeit in a mythical form) events that might have occurred thousands of years earlier?

On a further note, the hieroglyphs of Xochicalco are not Mayan (although the system of writing of Xochicalco might be indebted to the Mayan). The glyphs themselves appear to be mostly calendrical dates and place names. What is truly interesting to me is the bas-reliefs accompanying them.

Le Plongeon might have been entirely wrong in his translation of the glyphs, but I still have to see a convincing interpretation of the monument and its meaning.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1952, revised in 1963 and 1975 by Yuri Knorozov. Others continued the work and in the 80's the syllabry became better understood.

Linda Schele.

Harte

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The Edfu building texts were also composed during the 2nd Century BC, and similarly speak of an "Island of Creation", the abode of the primeval gods, that was destroyed in a time beyond recorded history. This is also very much reminiscent of the Atlantis story.

Do you have a link to the text? I have never heard of any Egyptian belief that the Benben was destroyed. The information I have says they believed it was turned into a small pyramid.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benben

All over the world we have deluge myths surviving for thousands of years.

I spent the good part of a month looking into that several years back. What I found was:

* only the places that have floods actually have a flood myth. Other places don't (Finland, for instance)

* some of the flood myths are very recent -- the result of Christian missionaries -- there were originally no flood mythos

* there is no global deluge

* there is no global deluge myth.

You can check the stories for yourself here: http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/flood-myths.html

What makes it so unlikely for the pyramid of Xochicalco to record (albeit in a mythical form) events that might have occurred thousands of years earlier?

* the "story" is from someone who didn't know how to read any of the glyphs (no one did). He just "grokked" them (to borrow a term from Heinlein.)

*The "story" just happened to support one of his dearly held beliefs (that he was a prince of Atlantis.)

* the Mesoamerican flood stories are clearly not derived from any one source such as a purported sinking continent. They are very different from each other. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mesoamerican_flood_myths

* the "story", as you indicate, appears to be calendrical and possibly even relating to omens ("bad days, good days.")

What is truly interesting to me is the bas-reliefs accompanying them. Le Plongeon might have been entirely wrong in his translation of the glyphs, but I still have to see a convincing interpretation of the monument and its meaning.

I'm sure that pieces have been identified. I know almost nothing about the art (I think Hans and others do, however) but I know that there are ways of identifying the highly stylized images.

I do know that when I try to interpret (and check it against known interpretations) that my unfamiliarity with the Mesoamerican stylism makes me end up identifying wrongly things like feathers and jaguar skins.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I do know that when I try to interpret (and check it against known interpretations) that my unfamiliarity with the Mesoamerican stylism makes me end up identifying wrongly things like feathers and jaguar skins.

Which is why you should switch from studying a culture who's most re known feat is the ability to stack rocks in a 3d triangular shape to a culture that developed the world's most important cereal crop (maize), sweet potatoes, tomatoes, and best of all domesticated llamas (YouTube search llama song here). Llamas are far cuter than dung beetles.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Which is why you should switch from studying a culture who's most re known feat is the ability to stack rocks in a 3d triangular shape to a culture that developed the world's most important cereal crop (maize), sweet potatoes, tomatoes, and best of all domesticated llamas (YouTube search llama song here). Llamas are far cuter than dung beetles.

After I finish my degree. And two others after that (I'm retired, so it's doable for me. Classes are free to seniors.)

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Concerning the Edfu building texts, I would point you to E.A.E. Raymond 1969 book "The mythical origins of the Egyptian Temple". It is a very interesting read. The original abode of the gods is given various names, likely corresponding (according to the author) to different moments in the mythical history of the island, such as the "Islands of Trampling", the "Island of fights" or the "Island of Creation". It is very clearly stated that, after a furious battle, the island sank and all of its divine inhabitants perished with the exception of a "Company of Gods" who were later to settle in Egypt and lay the foundations of the "sacred places of the first occasion".

The Mexican pyramid of Xochicalco seems to tell a very similar story: a "land of the Gods" is destroyed in a fiery catastrophe and later submerged by the waters. The survivors settle in Mexico and lay the foundations of a number of temples and sanctuaries, teach astronomy and the various arts of civilization to its still primitive inhabitants and start a "golden age" beyond recorded history, until they are in turn overthrown by some negative powers that oppose their creation.

And no, there is no agreement yet on the meaning of the glyphs and bas-reliefs of Xochicalco.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Concerning the Edfu building texts, I would point you to E.A.E. Raymond 1969 book "The mythical origins of the Egyptian Temple". It is a very interesting read.

I'm sure it is... but I'm terribly confused by this (interestingly enough, Manchester is where I'm getting my Egyptology degree.)

It's not a sourcebook for any of the classes I've taken, and I see mistakes (identifying the ka as a primordial deity, for one) that I can't account for. Both Kemp and Teeter cite her briefly, but she's not well cited and the scholarship is now about 60 years out of date. There's a strongly Christian tone there when discussing the deities that reminds me of works on Egyptology from the 1940's and earlier and the level of speculation certainly sounds like that period. This makes me think that the actual dissertation was written during perhaps the late 1950's. The papers and references she uses would be from the late 1950's and earlier.

The original abode of the gods is given various names, likely corresponding (according to the author) to different moments in the mythical history of the island, such as the "Islands of Trampling", the "Island of fights" or the "Island of Creation". It is very clearly stated that, after a furious battle, the island sank and all of its divine inhabitants perished with the exception of a "Company of Gods" who were later to settle in Egypt and lay the foundations of the "sacred places of the first occasion".

Actually, on p. 107 she writes "If our reconstruction be accepted, it would follow that the domain of the Creator was destroyed."

In other words, the Egyptians didn't say that. It's her hypothesis.

She continues, explaining that the sunken island is her hypothesis and then continues to build on this idea. As far as I can tell, this is not supported. I will look further.

The Mexican pyramid of Xochicalco seems to tell a very similar story: a "land of the Gods" is destroyed in a fiery catastrophe and later submerged by the waters.

Houston, we have a problem. You stated and we agreed that the pyramid has calendrical data on it and there's nothing about a "land of the gods" in the hieroglyphs they can read.

How do you know there's a story there about a "land of the gods" ... when evidence says that there's not and that le Plongeon (who fancied himself an Atlantean prince) is speculating wildly and in the wrong direction.

Nota bene: for folks looking this one up, her name is REymond. You can find most of her book online by googling for E.A.E. Reymond "The mythical origins of the Egyptian Temple"

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Concerning the Edfu building texts, I would point you to E.A.E. Raymond 1969 book "The mythical origins of the Egyptian Temple". It is a very interesting read. The original abode of the gods is given various names, likely corresponding (according to the author) to different moments in the mythical history of the island, such as the "Islands of Trampling", the "Island of fights" or the "Island of Creation". It is very clearly stated that, after a furious battle, the island sank and all of its divine inhabitants perished with the exception of a "Company of Gods" who were later to settle in Egypt and lay the foundations of the "sacred places of the first occasion".

In the translation you mention, which is considered poor, the sacred domain of the island you mention sank several times and was renewed, with new divine inhabitants.

I've seen these myths reinterpreted as ancestral memories of migrations out of the Sahara when it began drying up. I don't really believe that, but I found it a very interesting idea.

There is an ongoing project to translate the glyphs at this temple in Edfu. You have to be able to read German and you need a login. Given that, you can read what they have so far here.

As it stands now, I believe that we need to wait for an acceptable translation before we can speculate on the meaning.

Harte

Link to comment
Share on other sites

As it stands now, I believe that we need to wait for an acceptable translation before we can speculate on the meaning.

Harte

Don't hesitate, just speculate. You can always just accuse the translation of being wrong when it is finally made because it doesn't fit your theory.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

In the translation you mention, which is considered poor

Harte

can you please show me your source that says reymond is considered poor. she is quoted endlessly by everyone and i'm curious who considers her poor.

thanks in advance

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I see no info that Reymond did the translating.

The book in question isn't actually about the texts - it is a treatise on temple design that is based on early religious beliefs.

IIRC, the translation used in this book is by Chassinat from the early 1900's.

A brief history of the translations and of the Edfu project I mentioned (I probably should have linked to more than their login page) can be found on this pdf.

Harte

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Don't hesitate, just speculate. You can always just accuse the translation of being wrong when it is finally made because it doesn't fit your theory.

Have you tried finding the actual text in translation (from the early 1900's) of the parts the fringe is always on about? Other than portions of the texts that are quoted in the previously mentioned book on temple design tying in with stories in early myths - which is incomplete unless you buy it - I haven't seen it.

I don't find it to be worth my time. After all, the site is Ptolemaic. Even assuming the position that the texts were copied from older texts, I'd need to see valid translations of the claims - including all the context - before I could actually speculate.

As it is, I already stated the view that I like to consider, though I don't really believe it.

Harte

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I see no info that Reymond did the translating.

The book in question isn't actually about the texts - it is a treatise on temple design that is based on early religious beliefs.

IIRC, the translation used in this book is by Chassinat from the early 1900's.

A brief history of the translations and of the Edfu project I mentioned (I probably should have linked to more than their login page) can be found on this pdf.

Harte

so do we ignore her or not? noone else does.

i tend to disagree about the subject of the book

The Mythical Origin of the Egyptian Temple

“The first record…of the Sanctified God who came into being at the First Occasion, sets out a picture of a primaeval island (iw). This island has a principal name Island of Trampling [or Crushing] (iw titi)…the name of a region in which the creation took place, is known to us only from the first Edfu cosmogonical record…The sacred place Djeba in Wetjeset-Neter having been created, the Sanctified Ruler…appeared. He came from the underworld…as a protector, and is said to resemble the Nefer-her. [the sanctified {nefer also means beautiful} falcon- hr or Hor-Light] Subsequently the sacred place received the name Underworld of the Soul…Then the Lord of the Wing (ndm ndb) arrived in the island…the Place-of-Uniting-of-Company. The meaning of the name…might refer to a group of divine beings who had died…[the word smd describes the arrival of gods in which a new settlement was to be founded] Wetjeset-Neter…is interpreted as…restoring the Ancestors.” Pages 12-22 “Mythical Origin of the Egyptian Temple” by E.A.E. Reymond.

“The domain of the Wetjeset-Neter is now attacked by the enemy-snake, [interpreted in Oahspe as corporeality] and Heter-Her [Hor-Or-Light] is hard pressed…When the enemy, the snake, appeared at the landing stage of that domain, a bw-titi, Place-for-crushing, was planned and protective guards of the god were formed…The Place-for-crushing resembled a ifdw [four sides] of the divine shelter (nwt) within that domain…there is an allusion to a fight on the earth in front of the shelter. Another fight took place at the same time in the sky, in which the Falcon [Hor] was believed to fight against the snake named sbty.” Pages 23,34,35 “Mythical Origin of the Egyptian Temple” by E.A.E. Reymond.

“The Edfu cosmogonical records begin with a picture of the primaeval island where the gods were believed to have lived first…which, in part, was covered with reeds…We know from the Edfu texts that the Earth-Maker created the grounds for the domains of the gods (niwt)…by virtue of the word of the Earth-Maker…He is said to be the snake who created the Primaeval Ones…who created the Earth…This quotation seems to reveal a tradition according to which the first creative power, represented eventually as a snake, was believed to be the Earth-God…the Sole Unique One without peer, who was first to fashion the Earth upon his (potters) wheel [keep in mind that a pot is round and spinning thus dispelling the myth that the ancients did not know the world to be round, MHJ] who created men, gave birth to the Gods, Lord of the Universe, Ruler of the Primaeval Ones, the First Primaeval One who came into being before the Primaeval Ones.” Pages 59-61 “Mythical Origin of the Egyptian Temple” by E.A.E. Reymond.

“This text seems to imply a belief in the existence of a group of nameless [shmw] deities who existed before the origin of the world, and who were believed to act as a single creating power…these powers are described as the Primaeval Ones…the lords of the light…The Ghosts, the Ancestors…These nameless Creators of the Earth seem to have been regarded as its original inhabitants…they are also described as the Great Ennead…the Sanctified Ones who…created their own bodily form for themselves, who fashioned themselves as their (own) work…divine beings described as…the word Company…[it] may have been the name of some divine beings who eventually formed the company of the nameless god described as Pn…The name Pn as a divine name is known to us…as a subsidiary name of Ptah.” Pages 63,74,77,78,94,95 “Mythical Origin of the Egyptian Temple” by E.A.E. Reymond.

“The general tone of the beginning of the first record seems to convey the view that an ancient world, after having been constituted, was destroyed, and as a dead world it came to be the basis of a new period of creation…life developed within the island; this then became the scene of various mythical events, such as, for instance, the titi. Theoretically titi can be interpreted as trampling or aggression. It may be surmised that there was a fight in the island…the result that the divine inhabitants died. This interpretation accords with other parts of the first Edfu record which alludes to the death of the Company…A further important fact that emerges…the allusion to the underworld…makes it clear that the underworld was believed to have existed before the world was created…the Underworld of the Soul.” Pages 106,107,114 “Mythical Origin of the Egyptian Temple” by E.A.E. Reymond.

“The Pn-God…is to be linked with the gnn, the Weak One…believed to reside in a field of reeds, who died there and whose mortuary image was hidden in the same field of reeds…the first act of creation…in the Island of Trampling was solely an act of recreation of a divine world which once existed…in the first place a bw-titi, Place-for-Crushing, was planned. Then appeared on the scene a large company of divine beings…the whole company (tt) was then divided into four groups; each group was placed along one side of the bw-titi…Thereafter the snake was overthrown and the victorious gods are said to have settled (sndm) beside him…The divine powers who were believed to have acted in this phase of creation were the deities who took part in the former process; they were the Progeny of the Earth-God.” Pages 125,195,214 “Mythical Origin of the Egyptian Temple” by E.A.E. Reymond.

“Imitating the physical appearance of the first domain that ever came into existence…the vanished realm of the Pn-God…marks the starting-point in the creation of the new type of sacred abode: the temple…In fact a well-known text on the inner face of the enclosure wall of the temple at Edfu tells us that the temple was built at the dictates of the Ancestors according to what was written in this book which descended from the sky to the north of Memphis…We are of the opinion that the Edfu records preserve the memory of a predynastic religious center…on which the Egyptians looked as the homeland of the Egyptian temple…It looks as though the Egyptians believed that there was one land only in which all the orders of creation were effected…in which the Lord of All was the Earth-God and his immediate successor the Winged One.” Pages 215,262,263,274 “Mythical Origin of the Egyptian Temple” by E.A.E. Reymond.

pdfs linked from your edfu explorer by ms. reymond and mrs. jelinkova-reymond

ancestor gods at edfu

shebtiw

geographical features etc mentioned

iw titi [trampling] / iw aha [combat] / iw htp [peace] – in the hbbt [primeval ocean] waret

djeba in wetjeset-neter attacked by snake

pth comes from duat to protect it

pth made pth-nwyt-water after the snake

sbht-enclosure and channel built in consequence

channel filled with mw-water

shelter [nht] created for pth 5×15 cubits

mansion of isden [which had been planned] is built

the shebtiw build a sbty-enclosure

the hbbt receded and pay-lands emerged

pay-lands called sbnt-place wherein was the dd-pillar

crew of the falcon arrives and the shebtiw sail away

a temple is the built in wetjeset-neter

Temple of the Mansion of Ms-nht [by Ptah / seat of the 2 gods Re & ancestor Tanen]

2 temples of falcon [wetjeset-neter, djeba]

2 temples of sun-god [place for piercing, mansion of ms-nht]

Shebtiw from Neref worshipped in the Mansion of the Ram

Made the poy-lands for his Bw-wr [Great Place]

st-wrt [Great Seat – named by Thoth]

Djeba in Wetjeset-Neter

niwt [primeval domain] Blessed Island, Hareoty

Seat of the First Occasion [st n sp tpy]

sbht-enclosure and channel

nht – shelter for protection 5x15khet

sbty – enclosure

hcy-wr [great primeval mound]

bw-wr [great place / territory of the circuit]

bw-hbbt [place of the primeval water] Waret

pay-lands = snbt-place

inb – vast enclosure [outer enclosure of Re]

ges-waret [landing point of the Shebtiw]

ibn-wr [Enclosure of the Eldest]

hwt-enclosure of the Earthmaker [Tanen / Ir Ta] / Mansion [hwt] of Isden

tit-wrt [great Mound] of Heter-hr [mound of the radiant]

great plain of bja on which the gods stood in the northern sky

the mound of the two sycamores of the flood-land

island of the akhet dwellers

island of the just

hwt-ntr [mansion of the God]

iat mound existed before niwt

the first enclosure of the falcon was constructed on the enclosure of the earthmaker

sbht-enclosure is separate from the enclosure [sbty] in poy-lands and is encircled by mw-water in a channel.

Edited by cern
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Are you assuming I haven't read what parts of the book are available online? I linked it, you know.

Regarding your disagreement with what I regard to be the subject of the book, I suggest you read the title.

The myths at Edfu concern primeval deities. I don't see where you show this book stating they came to Egypt after the island sank.

In fact, the book states the island was destroyed and reborn, with a new set of dieties.

Harte

Edited by Harte
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Parts of this are REALLY wrong! It sounds as though Budge's dictionaries were being used.

“The first record…of the Sanctified God who came into being at the First Occasion, sets out a picture of a primaeval island (iw). This island has a principal name Island of Trampling [or Crushing] (iw titi)…the name of a region in which the creation took place, is known to us only from the first Edfu cosmogonical record…The sacred place Djeba in Wetjeset-Neter having been created, the Sanctified Ruler…appeared.

The more I read your quote, the more of a disjunct it seemed between what I know and what was being said. I finally found a version of the translation of the Temple that mentions both Reymond AND has translations (to some extent) of the text:

Finnestad, Ragnhild Bjerre. Image of the World and Symbol of the Creator: On the Cosmological and Iconological Values of the Temple of Edfu. Vol. 10. Otto Harrassowitz Verlag, 1985.

Finnestad's translation is apparently later than Reymond's and there are differences in the two. His tale of the cosmogony begins on page 14 (which you can read with the help of Google books, I think...

So in the above quote, the bolded part should read: "Floater" (Djeba) and "Support of Horus" (Wtst-Hr")

As I read through what I could of Finnestadt, the material made more sense and aligned more with what I knew of the cosmogeny and myths. I do know from the translation I see that Finnestad is actually a bit out of date, too, and that the German retranslation is going to be a significant improvement on his work. The meaning of some of those words has become clearer thanks to new finds and new parallel texts.

My conclusion is that you've gotten ahold of some very outdated material. Reymond's scholarship was good for the time, but using her to present an argument is like using a car handbook from 1960 to deal with a 2015 Tesla automobile.

Edited by Kenemet
  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Are you assuming I haven't read what parts of the book are available online? I linked it, you know.

Regarding your disagreement with what I regard to be the subject of the book, I suggest you read the title.

The myths at Edfu concern primeval deities. I don't see where you show this book stating they came to Egypt after the island sank.

In fact, the book states the island was destroyed and reborn, with a new set of dieties.

Harte

did your link go to reymond? thought the subject was reymond and the poorness of her work. i see exactly what the original poster on reymond was referring to in the book and articles she wrote.

as for doing it for you poor harte no. i was assuming noone else would bother looking her up so i made it a little easier. you were hoping noone would read her and decide for themselves if you are right or wrong.

anyone can read it and decide if harte is correct. he is a math teacher so he could be wrong,

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Parts of this are REALLY wrong! It sounds as though Budge's dictionaries were being used.

The more I read your quote, the more of a disjunct it seemed between what I know and what was being said. I finally found a version of the translation of the Temple that mentions both Reymond AND has translations (to some extent) of the text:

Finnestad, Ragnhild Bjerre. Image of the World and Symbol of the Creator: On the Cosmological and Iconological Values of the Temple of Edfu. Vol. 10. Otto Harrassowitz Verlag, 1985.

Finnestad's translation is apparently later than Reymond's and there are differences in the two. His tale of the cosmogony begins on page 14 (which you can read with the help of Google books, I think...

So in the above quote, the bolded part should read: "Floater" (Djeba) and "Support of Horus" (Wtst-Hr")

As I read through what I could of Finnestadt, the material made more sense and aligned more with what I knew of the cosmogeny and myths. I do know from the translation I see that Finnestad is actually a bit out of date, too, and that the German retranslation is going to be a significant improvement on his work. The meaning of some of those words has become clearer thanks to new finds and new parallel texts.

My conclusion is that you've gotten ahold of some very outdated material. Reymond's scholarship was good for the time, but using her to present an argument is like using a car handbook from 1960 to deal with a 2015 Tesla automobile.

no i actually got a hold of the material and in it i read exactly what the original poster said. perhaps you can point out where reymond has been called wrong and she is not to be listened too?

the finnestad text you are talking about in pdf also linked from edfu explorer

faulkner and gardiner vary. who do we not listen to?

Edited by cern
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Have you tried finding the actual text in translation (from the early 1900's) of the parts the fringe is always on about? Other than portions of the texts that are quoted in the previously mentioned book on temple design tying in with stories in early myths - which is incomplete unless you buy it - I haven't seen it.

I don't find it to be worth my time. After all, the site is Ptolemaic. Even assuming the position that the texts were copied from older texts, I'd need to see valid translations of the claims - including all the context - before I could actually speculate.

As it is, I already stated the view that I like to consider, though I don't really believe it.

Harte

The site is Egyptian and therefore inferior as to what can be gleaned compared to the least of the indigenous Mesoamerican cultures. I mean look at all the iconagraphy in Egypt around the dung beetle. That just screams "I like to play with poo, like the primates in the zoo". I picture the Pharoah on his throne flinging balls of dung at petitioners.

The texts may prove interesting as long as they have glyphs for helicopters, submarines, and UFO's. Oh, and a cold water geyser.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.