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Did you want war?


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#31    Homer

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Posted 21 March 2003 - 01:14 PM

                                                  Kismit,
No member of this forum lives in a country where their President or military are the ones telling them what is going on, unless it specifically relates to sensitive information regarding the war, and this applies to your country as well.

Also, I have made perfectly clear all reasons why some people are opposed to war. Nothing has been left out, which also includes your reasons for not wanting war. I have made it clear that some people are opposed to war due to their perception of no relationship between 9/11 and Iraq, as well as the fact that Iraq has never directly attacked us, as well the possible mass casualties that could be the result of this conflict. Believe me when I say I have covered all points

About financial gain, yes it is wrong to oppose war for the sake of financial gain, when that financial is the result of keeping the worlds biggest mass murderer in power.

Iraq has used chemical weapons against the Kurds on 15 April 1987. It happened two weeks after Hassan Ali Al Majid, a cousin of Saddam Hussein, was appointed head of the Northern Bureau set up to deal with Kurdistan.

He decided to evacuate and destroy all the Kurdish villages, concentrate their inhabitants in camps along the main highways, and physically eliminate all groups considered hostile. Chemical weapons were to be used as part of this strategy in order to “clean out” strongholds of resistance and inaccessible mountain villages. They were directed against thirty or so villages in the provinces of Suleimaniyeh and Erbil and proved very effective, as hundreds died. On 17 April, after a chemical attack that killed 400 people in the Balisan valley, 286 wounded survivors traveled to Erbil in search of medical attention. They were stopped by the army and shot.


The town of Halabja, population of 60,000, lies on the southern fringe of Iraqi Kurdistan, a few miles from the border with Iran. On 15 March 1988 it fell to the Peshmerga resistance fighters of Jalal Talabani's Patriotic Union of Kurdistan, supported by Iranian revolutionary guards. The next day Iraqi aircraft dropped chemical bombs on the population. In the space of a few hours 5,000 people had died. The 3,200 who didn’t have families were buried in a mass grave.

The Iraqi forces launched an all-out attack that reached its peak with the Anfal campaign. (The name refers to a verse of the Koran authorizing the plunder of infidels.) Anfal lasted from February to September 1988. The last operation was launched on 25 August, a few days after the ceasefire between Iraq and Iran that ended eight years of war. Sixteen divisions and a chemical weapons battalion, totaling 200,000 ground troops plus air support, conducted a “final cleansing operation” in the Kurdish province of Bahdinan along the Turkish border. This operation resulted in the flight of almost 100,000 civilians to Turkey.

In July 1988 the Iraqi army razed Halabja to the ground.

The destruction of Kurdish towns and villages continued into 1989. In June of that year Qala Diza, a city of 120,000 inhabitants on the Iranian frontier, was evacuated and razed to the ground.

By the time the genocidal frenzy ended, 90 % of Kurdish villages, and over twenty small towns and cities, had been wiped off the map. The countryside was infested with 15 million landmines, intended to make agriculture impossible. A million and a half Kurdish peasants had been interned in camps. Since 1974 over 300,000 had died in Baghdad's war against the Kurds. Almost half had disappeared without trace. About 10 % of the total Kurdish population of Iraq had perished.

Saddam Hussein has initiated two wars in the span of 12 years, against Iran and Kuwait, and by U.N. estimates, upwards of million and half had died

I never said that it is detestable to not want war due to financial gains. What I will say now is that it is detestable to leave this regime intact. Getting rid of Hussein by any means will actually prevent more deaths in the future, and if you think about it, it's the future we are fighting for. If you believe for one moment that the occupation forces ridding this region of this madman isn’t a good thing, then I have nothing further to say.



                                                  

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#32    Vox

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Posted 21 March 2003 - 02:33 PM

                                                  My views over this topic may shape the way people view me on this forum. It is not always pleasant to have to air ones opinion when it differs from the majority's view. But I feel that in this thread those that support the war have been grossly disrespected as well as misunderstood. It is true that if you can achieve the same goal at the end of the day via peaceful diplomatic methods then hostilities should not take place. However in this particular case it was, and still is evident that Saddam would never fully disarm, and rightfully I do not blame him. What country would willingly disarm their military weaponry on threats from other countries? The only option left by the free world was to invade, and indeed once the war is over take control of the countries leadership.

Sadam Hussein is a mad man. Whilst yes indeed, he has not attacked the US or any of its allies yet, there is no doubt that he would do harm to his neighbouring countries, and thus upset the balance of stability in the middle east. It is very well to make sheltered opinions from your warm seat infront the of your PC but you must realise that many people are not being given this choice. It is time to get off the moral high horse and support the troops and the war. Realistically you cannot support one without the other. You need soldiers to fight the war, and you have to make the war an honourable worthwhile cause so that our troops feel that they are fighting a glorious cause, not an imperialistic whim of a leader.

Regrettably the only problem in this situation is that we have forgot to believe in our nation and choose to believe in other nations skewed opinions. If you cannot believe in your country in who can you? I do not believe in the UN anymore, just alike DS. Once I thought that the world's "civillized" countries could co-operate to make the world a better place, now I have my doubts. It is very good to argue that he has not as of yet attacked any of our interests, but we do not have foresight do we? How much more suffering would we have eliminated if we took out Hitler in 1936 rather than 1945? It is amazing how much humanity can suffer in the space of six years? It is imperative that we do not fall into the same trap again, and take action now to eliminate any future suffering.

As far as the weapons inspections go, it is evident that they were not working. I am sorry to report that Mr. Blix would not be able to discover a SCUD missile launcher even if it were pointed at his head. I am very sorry that this state of affairs has arisen, but it is a necessary step to remove this man before he causes anymore harm.                                                    

Prefiero morir de pie que vivir siempre arrodillado- Che Guevara

#33    Homer

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Posted 21 March 2003 - 02:57 PM

                                                  My above post mentioned the moral obligations for this war, this post is designed to highlight the legalities of this war.

U.N. Security Council Resolution 687   3 April 1991
Iraq shall unconditionally accept the destruction, removal, or rendering harmless, under international supervision, of: (1) All chemical and biological weapons and all stocks of agents and all related subsystems and components and all research, development, support and manufacturing facilities; (2)  All ballistic missiles with a range greater than 150 kilometres and related major parts, and repair and production facilities;

Iraq shall unconditionally agree not to acquire or develop nuclear weapons or nuclear-weapons-usable material or any subsystems or components or any research, development, support or manufacturing facilities related to the above.


U.N. Security Council Resolution 707   15 August 1991
(Noting with grave concern the letters dated 26 June 1991,  28 June 1991 and 4 July 1991 from the Secretary-General, conveying information obtained from the Executive Chairman of the Special Commission and the Director-General of the IAEA which establishes Iraq's failure to comply with its obligations under resolution 687 (1991)),

allow the Special Commission, the IAEA and their Inspection Teams immediate, unconditional and unrestricted access to any and all areas, facilities, equipment, records and means of transportation which they wish to inspect

cease immediately any attempt to conceal, or any movement or destruction of any material or equipment relating to its nuclear, chemical or biological weapons or ballistic missile programmes, or material or equipment relating to its other nuclear activities without notification to and prior consent of the Special Commission

Iraq will fully and immediately cooperate in the inspection of the locations identified by the Special Commission and present for immediate inspection any of those items that may have been transported from those locations

make available immediately to the Special Commission, the IAEA and their Inspection Teams any items to which they were previously denied access


U.N. Security Council Resolution 715   11 October 1991
Demands that Iraq meet unconditionally all its obligations under the plans approved by the present resolution and cooperate fully with the Special Commission and the Director General of the International Atomic Energy Agency in carrying out the plans



U.N. Security Council Resolution 1060   12 June 1996
Emphasizing the importance the Council attaches to full compliance by Iraq
with its obligations under resolutions 687 (1991), 707 (1991) and 715 (1991) to
permit immediate, unconditional and unrestricted access to the Special
Commission to any site which the Commission wishes to inspect

Demands that Iraq cooperate fully with the Special Commission in
accordance with the relevant resolutions; and that the Government of Iraq allow
the Special Commission inspection teams immediate, unconditional and
unrestricted
access to any and all areas, facilities, equipment, records and
means of transportation which they wish to inspect.


U.N. Security Council Resolution 1115   21 June 1997
Determined to ensure full compliance by Iraq with its obligations under all previous resolutions, in particular resolutions 687 (1991), 707 (1991), 715 (1991) and 1060 (1996) to permit immediate, unconditional and unrestricted access to the Special Commission to any site which the Commission wishes to inspect

Demands that Iraq cooperate fully with the Special Commission in accordance with the relevant resolutions; and that the Government of Iraq allow the Special Commission inspection teams immediate, unconditional and unrestricted access to any and all areas, facilities, equipment, records and means of transportation which they wish to inspect in accordance with the mandate of the Special Commission;

Demands further that the Government of Iraq give immediate, unconditional and unrestricted access to officials and other persons under the authority of the Iraqi Government whom the Special Commission wishes to interview, so that the Special Commission may fully discharge its mandate.


U.N. Security Council Resolution 1134   23 October 1997
Expressing grave concern at the report of additional incidents since the adoption of resolution 1115 (1997) in which access by the Special Commission inspection teams to sites in Iraq designated for inspection by the Commission was again denied by the Iraqi authorities

Reaffirming its determination to ensure full compliance by Iraq with all its obligations under all previous relevant resolutions and reiterating its demand that Iraq allow immediate, unconditional and unrestricted access to the Special Commission to any site which the Commission wishes to inspect…

Condemns the repeated refusal of the Iraqi authorities, as detailed in the report of the Executive Chairman of the Special Commission, to allow access to sites designated by the Special Commission, and especially Iraqi actions endangering the safety of Special Commission personnel, the removal and destruction of documents of interest to the Special Commission and interference with the freedom of movement of Special Commission personnel

Decides that such refusals to cooperate constitute a flagrant violation of Security Council resolutions 687 (1991), 707 (1991), 715 (1991) and 1060 (1996)

Demands in particular that Iraq without delay allow the Special Commission inspection teams immediate, unconditional and unrestricted access to any and all areas, facilities, equipment, records and means of transportation which they wish to inspect in accordance with the mandate of the Special Commission, as well as to officials and other persons under the authority of the Iraqi Government whom the Special Commission wishes to interview so that the Special Commission may fully discharge its mandate


U.N. Security Council Resolution  1137   12 November 1997
Recalling further the Statement of its President of 29 October 1997 in which the Council condemned the decision of the Government of Iraq to try to dictate the terms of its compliance with its obligation to cooperate with the Special Commission, and warned of the serious consequences of Iraq's failure to comply immediately and fully and without conditions or restrictions with its obligations under the relevant resolutions


U.N. Security Council Resolution  1194   9 September 1998
Determined to ensure full compliance by Iraq with its obligations under all previous resolutions, in particular resolutions 687 (1991), 707 (1991), 715 (1991), 1060 (1996), 1115 (1997) and 1154 (1998), to permit immediate, unconditional and unrestricted access to the Special Commission and the IAEA to all sites which they wish to inspect, and to provide the Special Commission and the IAEA with all the cooperation necessary for them to fulfil their mandates under those resolutions


U.N. Security Council Resolution  1205   5 November 1998
Determined to ensure immediate and full compliance by Iraq without conditions or restrictions with its obligations under resolution 687 (1991) of 3 April 1991 and the other relevant resolutions

Demands that Iraq rescind immediately and unconditionally the decision of 31 October 1998, as well as the decision of 5 August 1998, to suspend cooperation with the Special Commission and to maintain restrictions on the work of the IAEA, and that Iraq provide immediate, complete and unconditional cooperation with the Special Commission and the IAEA


U.N. Security Council Resolution 1441   8 November 2002
All 15 council members voted for the resolution
The resolution states that Iraq remains in material breach of council resolutions relating to Iraq's 1990 invasion of Kuwait.
It gives UNMOVIC and IAEA, among other things, unrestricted rights of entry and travel into and throughout Iraq; provides for U.N. security for the inspectors; gives the inspectors the right to freeze sites and declare exclusion zones; and gives them the right to conduct interviews, either inside or outside the country, without the presence of Iraqi officials. Most importantly, it gives the inspectors immediate, unconditional, and unrestricted access to all sites in Iraq, including so-called presidential sites.



Sorry about the long post, but this proves Saddam's failure to cooperate after several years of inspections and multiple resolutions. Some say we are 'rushing' to war, and I'm proud to say this is proof of our desire for a peaceful solution. That solution was denied to us by Saddam Hussein, and war is the only option.                                                  

Edited by Homer, 21 March 2003 - 03:11 PM.

אַ֭תָּה אֱלֹהֵ֣י יִשְׁעִ֑י

#34    Bizarro

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Posted 21 March 2003 - 03:08 PM

                                                  Kismit,

the 'ignorance' that you say you witnessed is not ignorance at all.  why should you feel sorry for the french people because the americans didn't want to sit near them?

maybe you should look at it from our perspective:

many of our soldiers lay in french graves.  we died to liberate them from a brutal dictator.  when the war ended, we didn't turn France into America, we just went home and supplied them with the food and supplies they needed (at our expense, mind you) to get back on their feet again.  we did this out of our belief in liberty and because we remembered the french helping us in our war of independence.  

now, to americans, it seems the french have totally ignored this fact.  how can a country that we set free of tyranny and then restored their democracy not believe we have the same wishes in mind for Iraq?  if we were these evil, world dominating bastards that some europeans make us out to be, wouldn't France be under our thumb? or Germany? no, you have the democracy that allows you to spit in our faces because we died to give it to you.  we fed you when you were starving and paid to rebuild your country when it was in ruins.  we did this not because we were imperialists but because we are a sympathetic and caring society that believes in our own freedom- and yours.  

i wouldn't sit next to a french family either.  its funny how people talk of the french being so easy to offend- like if you try to speak french and its not up to their standards- but americans are very hard to offend and the french finally accomplished it perfectly.  
                                                  

if there was a meteor,
adrift amongst space,
set about on a collision course
not with Earth, but my face...
i wonder if id even know,
at what time i might,
be passed off like an old style
and by the meteor be smite?

- me, 1997

#35    Shack

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Posted 21 March 2003 - 03:17 PM

                                                  The case for war has been well made, and it is patently clear to anyone who has any knowledge of saddam hussain that 'peaceful disarmament' equates to no disarmament at all where that regime is concerned.  continuing inspections would only be used by the current Iraqi regime to maintain and extend their campaign of deceit and lies.  how anybody could think any other outcome (i.e. the successful disarmament of iraq) is possible is beyond me.

disarmament is impossible without the removal of Saddam and his regime.  The removal of Saddam and his regime is only possible through a large scale military intervention and occupation.  in time, the pro-war lobby will be proved to be right.  already Saddam is firing scud/al-hussain missiles he apparantly didnt have into kuwait.  Did UNSCOM miss them, did Saddam conceal them, or did Saddam pull them out of his ass????                                                  


#36    SpaceyKC

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Posted 21 March 2003 - 03:18 PM

                                                          DS, there you go grouping people together again.   I don't
        like that anymore than when people think bad of me as an
         American simply because I live here.  I voice my opinions here
         not for all the people of America but for me, personally.  And I
         am tired of individuals trying to represent me (whether I agree with
         them or not will be found out when I post it on my own).                                                  

"Science may have found a cure for most evils;  but it has
         found no remedy for the worst of them all --- the apathy of human beings."
                                                     Helen Keller

#37    Bizarro

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Posted 21 March 2003 - 03:23 PM

                                                  Spacey, im not grouping anyone together.  im just voicing the reason for those 'ignorant' americans that Kismit refers to.  after all, they can't speak for themselves and im quite sure this is the reason why they acted in that manner.

im not representing you either.  this is MY opinion.  i think that is implied when I type it.                                                    

if there was a meteor,
adrift amongst space,
set about on a collision course
not with Earth, but my face...
i wonder if id even know,
at what time i might,
be passed off like an old style
and by the meteor be smite?

- me, 1997

#38    SpaceyKC

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Posted 21 March 2003 - 04:52 PM

                                                  
QUOTE (DSchwartz @ Mar 21 2003, 10:08 AM)


i wouldn't sit next to a french family either.  


       





         This is what I was talking about!
           Maybe I wasn't clear the first time,  I meant you
         grouping all the French people together because of the
          government's  take on their place in the conflict going
          on right now.
           I would certainly feel bad if I were a French member of this board
             and had to read statements like that!
                                                            


#39    Halo_Jones

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Posted 21 March 2003 - 05:09 PM

                                                  Oh DS Why do you do this? huh.gif
You seem like a really intelligent person and by saying things like that just makes you out to be an ignorant selfish bigot!
I really try to avoid confrontation but you know just which buttons to press to get everyones back up and seem to enjoy doing it too.
You know you will have upset people by that statement and don't say it's just your sense of humour again because only a childish idiot would find it amusing.
                                                  


#40    Homer

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Posted 21 March 2003 - 05:30 PM

                                                  Well said KC and Halo                                                  

אַ֭תָּה אֱלֹהֵ֣י יִשְׁעִ֑י

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Posted 21 March 2003 - 06:15 PM

                                                  Bah.. after all the baring the french have done, i say we forget them all. If another war comes, we let them get rolled over, and just sit back..
And DS, your far from ignorant or a bigot. Some people just dont know what they are talking about.                                                  


#42    Saru

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Posted 21 March 2003 - 06:38 PM

                                                  I have to agree with KC and Halo here, I think that's quite enough of the anti-French comments, insulting the French people because of decisions their government has made is highly ignorant and totally uncalled for.                                                  


#43    Bizarro

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Posted 21 March 2003 - 07:01 PM

                                                  im certainly not a bigot.  i am a person who has experiences of my own that affect my judgement.  im not trying to offend anyone, im just being honest about the way that i feel about things.

i read topics where the people on this forum villify americans and no one tells them to stop.  im quite sick of it.   i will not allow people to make these kind of statements about my country- regardless of how many others will pretend like it doesn't bother them.  

if i am honest when i say i don't like the french attitude and short memory span, i feel im entitled.  im not calling anyone names or insulting them, rather just choosing how i will view them based on their actions.  i could understand you guys being mad if i insulted a frenchman but i do not.  i just don't agree with their government policy and the sentiment of many of them that shapes it.  

if i have to read people criticizing americans constantly for our government's policy based on the sentiments of most of us, why can't the french take a little criticism as well?                                                  

if there was a meteor,
adrift amongst space,
set about on a collision course
not with Earth, but my face...
i wonder if id even know,
at what time i might,
be passed off like an old style
and by the meteor be smite?

- me, 1997

#44    Homer

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Posted 21 March 2003 - 07:18 PM

                                                  DS,
I have been defending the U.S. against criticism a lot longer than you have on this forum, and I was doing it alone. But I never turned it around and criticized other nations or people because I got my feelings hurt. Grow up and be a man, and this also applies to that piece of sh*t Guest as well mad.gif                                                  

אַ֭תָּה אֱלֹהֵ֣י יִשְׁעִ֑י

#45    Bizarro

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Posted 21 March 2003 - 07:41 PM

                                                  Homer, being a man is sticking to your principles despite persecution.  if you want to insult me for believing what i do, so be it.  i haven't insulted anyone at all.  get off the bash DSchwartz bandwagon for a change and read what ive posted before you make a post like that.                                                    

if there was a meteor,
adrift amongst space,
set about on a collision course
not with Earth, but my face...
i wonder if id even know,
at what time i might,
be passed off like an old style
and by the meteor be smite?

- me, 1997




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