Conversion from one faith to another

[Podo]

This is not a thread for ****ting on religions or belief. I want to understand the mindset of "I change my belief from Y to Z."

I was reading the Middle English Book of John Mandeville the other day, and it speaks regularly of conversion and differing belief systems. It got me thinking about the nature of conversion, and I realized that I really don't understand it.

As an opponent of religion as a concept, I've engaged many religious types over the years, and have had all manner of experiences. A common thread among the religious that I have noticed is faith, obviously. The deeply religious "know" they are right, despite a complete lack of evidence supporting their beliefs. Their faith is so strong that nothing anyone can say will shake it.

So, if that's the case, I don't understand how religious types are converted to other beliefs. If your faith is strong enough to ignore the overwhelming liklihood that your god does not exist, what can another religious person say to change your mind? If evidence won't make you reconsider, what can someone with a similar lack of evidence say to make you decide "oh hey, I think that god is more likely than mine"?

If you have converted from one faith to another, I'd like to hear about why and how you did it. What was your rationale? Do you actually believe that the new faith is more likely to be "real," or was it a case of wishful thinking? I look forward to hearing your stories.

[+and-then]

There have been many "visitations" through dreams where Muslims have seen Christ and been told to follow him.

http://www.charismamag.com/spirit/evangelism-missions/14442-when-musiims-see-jesus

http://www1.cbn.com/onlinediscipleship/visions-of-jesus-stir-muslim-hearts

https://www.opendoorsusa.org/take-action/pray/tag-prayer-updates-post/after-dreams-of-jesus-imam-renounces-islam/

There are many more examples but you get the drift. I have no idea if these are verified or even verifiable but when a Muslim in the M.E. converts, it's a very serious act. It means persecution at best and quite possibly death. In the western (post Christian,imo) countries, when a Christian converts to Islam I really don't understand the decision but I haven't heard of similar "visitations" by Gabriel or Muhammad being cited as a reason. So I think your topic is a good one. Let's see if any converts care to share their thoughts.

[XenoFish]

I've played with many beliefs systems and a common thread seems to be the personality of the believer. Christianity in the beginning was excellent, however as time passed and I changed. Causing me to question my beliefs, I found them invalid. Then I spent several years as a chaote (a practitioner of chaos magick). Because of this I saw that belief was just an accepted truth when it came to spirituality. One of the major flaws of religion is the only us aspect. Which cause those who switch faith problems even death.

[Farmer77]

I started out a hardcore christian conservative. I tried to fit in and buy all the bull but the hypocrisy and deep seeded hatred for anyone NOT christian drove me away. After several years going to church started to make me feel dirty rather than uplifted, eventually I was told my health issues were because I had a demon inside me (this is a 10k member church BTW not a small backwoods thing) by a high ranking church official and I just couldnt listen to the lunacy with a straight face anymore.

I explored Buddhism and incorporated many factors of it into my life but I feel like thats more a philosophy than a religion.

[Davros of Skaro]

Might as well ask a gambling addict why they switched Casinos, or scratch off games. It's the same neurological mechanisms behind suspension of reality for a reward.

[+and-then]

I started out a hardcore christian conservative. I tried to fit in and buy all the bull but the hypocrisy and deep seeded hatred for anyone NOT christian drove me away. After several years going to church started to make me feel dirty rather than uplifted, eventually I was told my health issues were because I had a demon inside me (this is a 10k member church BTW not a small backwoods thing) by a high ranking church official and I just couldnt listen to the lunacy with a straight face anymore.

I explored Buddhism and incorporated many factors of it into my life but I feel like thats more a philosophy than a religion.

Maybe this is at least a part of the reasoning for conversions in general. Men corrupt everything they do, eventually. Religion is no different. Christ's commandment to love others as yourself is pretty simply but VERY difficult for the average human, sadly. Maybe the hypocrisy factor explains most of conversions. I have said before that those who seek knowledge and relationship with God will do so no matter where they are born. Had I been born in Riyadh I suspect I'd have been Muslim or if in Delhi, Hindu. As I saw the hypocrisy and could not square that with the nature they were teaching about God then I'd have searched for the truth elsewhere...

[Podo]

Might as well ask a gambling addict why they switched Casinos, or scratch off games. It's the same neurological mechanisms behind suspension of reality for a reward.

That's kind of what I assumed, but I'm still curious as to what people will say.

[XenoFish]

I think that I've mentioned this in another thread. A lot of times a religion starts off as a good idea. Simple rules and regulations topped with the belief in a higher power. Cut and dry, not to much to it. Then people like to mess things up. I could tell people to be excellent to one another, trust in the great spirit, and when you pray act on that prayer. A very simple message, how long would it be before it's completely lost it's original meaning.

I think this is the problem with religion. People add more than is needed to it. A faith should make you feel good and be humble, not make you an elitist bag of d*****.

[Davros of Skaro]

That's kind of what I assumed, but I'm still curious as to what people will say.

I found these deconversion stories interesting.

http://www.thethinkingatheist.com/forum/Thread-Share-your-de-conversion-story

The internal Wall is not the same for everyone.

[Davros of Skaro]

As I saw the hypocrisy and could not square that with the nature they were teaching about God then I'd have searched for the truth elsewhere...

Are you saying if you were born into/raised into Hinduism, or Islam you would eventually turn to Christ as your Lord and saviour?

[+and-then]

Are you saying if you were born into/raised into Hinduism, or Islam you would eventually turn to Christ as your Lord and saviour?

There is no way I could know that for sure. IMO that does not change anything about His nature or message though. As I've often said, everyone has a choice to make - no one can do that for them. I honestly believe that the Christ IS the Creator, a part of the trinity of an everlasting God. I believe it so much that unlike the Muslim martyr, I would give my life before I'd renounce and convert. The greatest difference is that I would never kill others thinking it to be a service to God.

[XenoFish]

There is no way I could know that for sure. IMO that does not change anything about His nature or message though. As I've often said, everyone has a choice to make - no one can do that for them. I honestly believe that the Christ IS the Creator, a part of the trinity of an everlasting God. I believe it so much that unlike the Muslim martyr, I would give my life before I'd renounce and convert. The greatest difference is that I would never kill others thinking it to be a service to God.

So your belief has become like ice, solid. Where as my belief is like water, ever flow and ever changing. Adapting based on information and research. What does this belief do for you? What are the benefits? If something came along and completely disproved the very faith you held, would you change your beliefs?

(No I'm not thread hijacking or trying to start an argument, I'm curious. Because having this kind of faith is foreign to me. I could never fully do it so I'm wanting to know.)

Edited January 30, 2016 by XenoFish

[Bendy Demon]

I think some people change because they realized the mode of belief system they were boxed into didn't help them; some realized that they are not obligated to force themselves to keep "believing" just to be considered acceptable by others.

Some choose a channel that speaks to them more while others tire of anthropomorphism and being made to feel like all of nature is out to punish them personally.

I tried wicca out of curiosity but after less than a year I abandoned it because trying to force myself to "believe" something that I knew was fantasy was taking too much energy. It did not feel "natural" or comfortable in the least...it just was not a fit no matter how much I tried to convince myself otherwise. I tried the altar thing and tried suspending my skepticism yet I still felt silly kneeling in front of an altar doing rituals that were nothing more, to me, than a circus act.

The decor I acquired was nice and admittedly added a nice ambiance to my room but still, it was all fake. No sincerity to it because I knew I was trying to force myself into something that was never a fit.

I am glad I was raised in an environment where I had the freedom to choose and choose I did.

I read a bit of stuff on buddhism and while some of it is interesting I will not align myself with it because, like all other religions (though buddhism isn't considered a religion by some) views life as a sort of ongoing series of punishments and that you have to spend your life on your knees begging to be forgiven for being alive and human.

Religion doesn't work for me, for others it does. My refusal to believe on command does not make me, as some people in society insist, a moral defect or less of a person.

[Stubbly_Dooright]

Podo:

This is not a thread for ****ting on religions or belief. I want to understand the mindset of "I change my belief from Y to Z."

I was reading the Middle English Book of John Mandeville the other day, and it speaks regularly of conversion and differing belief systems. It got me thinking about the nature of conversion, and I realized that I really don't understand it.

As an opponent of religion as a concept, I've engaged many religious types over the years, and have had all manner of experiences. A common thread among the religious that I have noticed is faith, obviously. The deeply religious "know" they are right, despite a complete lack of evidence supporting their beliefs. Their faith is so strong that nothing anyone can say will shake it.

So, if that's the case, I don't understand how religious types are converted to other beliefs. If your faith is strong enough to ignore the overwhelming liklihood that your god does not exist, what can another religious person say to change your mind? If evidence won't make you reconsider, what can someone with a similar lack of evidence say to make you decide "oh hey, I think that god is more likely than mine"?

If you have converted from one faith to another, I'd like to hear about why and how you did it. What was your rationale? Do you actually believe that the new faith is more likely to be "real," or was it a case of wishful thinking? I look forward to hearing your stories.

What a good question. It is, to me, a thought provoking question.

I know of one relative who converted before getting married. To the Catholic religion, because spouse is Catholic.

(there is a part of me that thinks, that it was just the mechanics of the move, because there really didn't seem to be any consistent church going in both families to begin with. So, I wonder, if actual belief took part, but just appeasing some parts of something and to have a Catholic wedding. (which was exciting)

Me, one would think I converted. From a secular background to a New Age belief.

Well, there was no ceremony involved, and it was just between me, myself, and I, so is that considered conversion?

I just practiced, quietly, in my belief from then on.

I wonder how these two examples would suffice for this thread.

Xenofish:

I think that I've mentioned this in another thread. A lot of times a religion starts off as a good idea. Simple rules and regulations topped with the belief in a higher power. Cut and dry, not to much to it. Then people like to mess things up. I could tell people to be excellent to one another, trust in the great spirit, and when you pray act on that prayer. A very simple message, how long would it be before it's completely lost it's original meaning.

I think this is the problem with religion. People add more than is needed to it. A faith should make you feel good and be humble, not make you an elitist bag of d*****.

I have seen this with some individuals who really have no belief in their religion.

(when discussing their Catholic raising childhood, they would talk about it with some form of sarcasm and consider themselves as 'reformed Catholics' )

So, is thread something to consider those in organized religion, or do private individuals apply? I may seem to want to stay secular or such, by those who prosetylize for their religion and causing me to but I ended up a believer in a very unorthodox belief. Maybe it's because, ( despite what I feel are experiences of something coming from some other area ((long story)) it seemed that I could make the rules )

(yeah my sentence formation......SUCKS! *shrugs* )

So your belief has become like ice, solid. Where as my belief is like water, ever flow and ever changing. Adapting based on information and research. What does this belief do for you? What are the benefits? If something came along and completely disproved the very faith you held, would you change your beliefs?

(No I'm not thread hijacking or trying to start an argument, I'm curious. Because having this kind of faith is foreign to me. I could never fully do it so I'm wanting to know.)

I wouldn't consider this thread hijacking, because I see it being an interesting question, to an interesting example shared by someone who is answering to the point of this thread.

I wonder about that, because I like the description of flow, when talking about belief, but when it's steadfastly solid, I wonder how it feeds onto someone to keep it that way.

So, I'm interested too.

[XenoFish]

Interesting point. I think that not everyone can be religious, I do think that it's possible that all people possess their own form of spirituality. Spirituality doesn't mean worshiping something, in my case it's the admiration for my existence. The curious drive for knowledge that keeps me searching. I'm spiritual in the sense that I am a part of a great big mysterious universe. Although brief that I may live, it is an awesome thought to me. I'm not designed for structured worship. I'd rather enjoy the beauty of a flower and marvel at a newly discovered planet. Perhaps my inner child is still alive?

[Stubbly_Dooright]

Ryu:

I tried wicca out of curiosity but after less than a year I abandoned it because {{trying to force myself to "believe" something that I knew was fantasy was taking too much energy. It did not feel "natural" or comfortable in the least...}}it just was not a fit no matter how much I tried to convince myself otherwise. I tried the altar thing and tried suspending my skepticism yet I still felt silly kneeling in front of an altar doing rituals that were nothing more, to me, than a circus act.

The decor I acquired was nice and admittedly added a nice ambiance to my room but still, it was all fake. No sincerity to it because I knew I was trying to force myself into something that was never a fit.

I am glad I was raised in an environment where I had the freedom to choose and choose I did.

I read a bit of stuff on buddhism and while some of it is interesting I will not align myself with it because, like all other religions (though buddhism isn't considered a religion by some) views life as a sort of ongoing series of punishments and that you have to spend your life on your knees begging to be forgiven for being alive and human.

Religion doesn't work for me, for others it does. My refusal to believe on command does not make me, as some people in society insist, a moral defect or less of a person.

I researched Wicca myself, and I'm still thinking that the jury is now out on that one. There are quite a few aspects of that belief, that I think I believe.

With that said, there is the thing there. To force one's self to 'believe' is just that, too much energy and not feeling natural, and that's why I feel one cannot chose to believe. My feeling on that, of course.

I think researching, participating, and exploring other religions is very healthy. I like that part of this, and even the least of it, just learning about each of them, is probably giving all of us an understanding of each other.

But, if we found out, 'no, it doesn't seem to gel', than that is honest with a person.

My humble opinion on that of course.

IN which, I think why this thread's OP is a great idea.

[Stubbly_Dooright]

XenoFish:

Interesting point. I think that not everyone can be religious, I do think that it's possible that all people possess their own form of spirituality. Spirituality doesn't mean worshiping something, in my case it's the admiration for my existence. The curious drive for knowledge that keeps me searching. I'm spiritual in the sense that I am a part of a great big mysterious universe. Although brief that I may live, it is an awesome thought to me. I'm not designed for structured worship. I'd rather enjoy the beauty of a flower and marvel at a newly discovered planet. Perhaps my inner child is still alive?

I think we need our inner child to keep us sane.

[XenoFish]

Maybe that's the drive for religious beliefs? Our inner child and imagination. We make gods to help us better understand the world around us and sometimes it get's out of hand. Not only this it give us that social belonging a child wants. The more I think about the more it makes sense. So changing religions is like finding a social group with the same or similar mentality. No one can believe the same thing, which in some religions causes problems, even death.

You can say that I'm an indifferent agnostic or apatheist. The existence or non-existence of god isn't important to me, what grinds my gears is the malice in which people use their religion.

[Davros of Skaro]

There is no way I could know that for sure. IMO that does not change anything about His nature or message though. As I've often said, everyone has a choice to make - no one can do that for them. I honestly believe that the Christ IS the Creator, a part of the trinity of an everlasting God. I believe it so much that unlike the Muslim martyr, I would give my life before I'd renounce and convert. The greatest difference is that I would never kill others thinking it to be a service to God.

Thank you.

What denomination of Christianity do you identify with the most?

[+and-then]

So your belief has become like ice, solid. Where as my belief is like water, ever flow and ever changing. Adapting based on information and research. What does this belief do for you? What are the benefits? If something came along and completely disproved the very faith you held, would you change your beliefs?

(No I'm not thread hijacking or trying to start an argument, I'm curious. Because having this kind of faith is foreign to me. I could never fully do it so I'm wanting to know.)

Solid is a good way to describe it, yes. Think of it this way... since I am unable to actually PROVE any of it then I have already given myself over to belief without such evidence. Of course I'm speaking of proof that would be acceptable to a scientist since that is the standard most expect now. I believe that God has encoded events right along through history IN his word that have proven themselves but skeptics will always find fault with what they wish to deny. The prophecy of Tyre, for example:

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ezekiel+26

Modern Tyre -http://search.myway.com/search/AJimage.jhtml?&pn=1&queryTerm=images+of+modern+Tyre&cb=HI&pg=GGmain&p2=%5EHI%5Exdm019%5ETTAB02%5Eus&n=7829e745&qid=d0a7759796d24b1d909c63fea0806751&ss=sub&st=tab&ptb=E19D49B1-548C-4758-95A1-3E30AB769ABA&si=CPXYrdyyusoCFVCQHwodvDoCXg&searchfor=Ancient+Tyre+Map&tpr=jrel2&ots=1454180672344&imgs=1p&filter=on&imgDetail=true

Then of course there is the return of the Jews to Israel. 100 years ago most thought that utterly impossible. Or the prophecies against Damascus becoming a ruinous heap, never to be inhabited again or Egypt falling into civil war before being ruled over by a "fierce King". So it all depends on the attitude one has about "acceptable proof". As I said, I am completely sold out to the belief that Jesus, the anointed one of Israel IS the Creator. I believe the words of the bible, though often cryptic, are truth that is only revealed to those who do believe. So the question is, IF Damascus gets nuked and becomes uninhabitable, IF Egypt falls into a civil war before being taken by a cruel despot, could you ever believe that these things (written of nearly 3 millennia ago) were prophetic? No condemnation from me if you cannot. Most people cannot believe these days unless suitable proof is offered. We all just have to choose what we are able to live with. This world is not getting better, regardless what some here say. It worsens daily and will continue to do. Ultimately we will endure a catastrophic WW3 and the survivors will be forced to live in a way foreign to all but those in the worst dictatorships today. So dying before giving up the only thing I actually CAN believe in today is no great price for me.

[XenoFish]

Thank you for your insight and due to the request of the OP I shall stay my hand.

[+and-then]

Thank you.

What denomination of Christianity do you identify with the most?

I initially attended a Baptist church, fell away for many years and now attend an independent Baptist/Berean church again. Probably one of the most loving but least "tolerant" of sin. By tolerant I simply mean that while we do not condemn a person for their choices, we also do not co-sign their BS...er..so to speak (sorry that's an old AA saying that seemed apropos) Actually this church is much more interested in proclaiming the gospel of Christ than it is in being involved in "feel good" ministry, more involved in actual missionary work than building a bigger building to house more people so they can build a bigger building....

[XenoFish]

Is the missionary work about conversion or goodwill?

[Roy Perry]

hi Podo

first one must know Faith is just a belief

After time learn more truths proving some wrong other right

it has nothing to with religion that part is men made

just faith to me does not anything do with the bible

The bible was wrote King James to get power over the poor

the books in the bible are not God word but they are part the God's truth

otherwise the bible is nothing but a cover to hold part God's

But it cannot hold the complete truth of God

you see we are still learning what God is and is not

Jesus Christ said books cannot hold whole truth

Love Roy

Edited January 31, 2016 by Roy Perry

[Podo]

Thank you for your insight and due to the request of the OP I shall stay my hand.

Thanks, Xeno. I know it is hard. I share the same sentiments; keeping them in check is tricky. There are plenty of other threads for that, though