60 replies to this topic

[The Skeptic Eric Raven]

Thanks for clarifying. Good luck and have fun.

[Sariegn]

Sorry! i didn't meen to quote myself... i still have to get used to the way the site works..

[aquatus1]

'kay then, you think what you want. I dont expect everyone to beleive me, heck i'm only 14. happy.gif

Well, that is a point in your favor then.  You are quite correct that I do not believe you, but that is the result from many people of your age coming to this site and claiming extraordinary powers, but being unable to provide any sort of proof (or even a decent definition).  I hope you understand that it is nothing personal.

However, my statement still stands, in regards to your credibility.  I am a scientist, and as such I have very specific guidelines and methodology that needs to be followed in order to present a finding.  This methodology is extremely crucial, for it is the basis of verifiability and credibility.  By properly following scientific methodology, I show that I am able to put together a logical argument with imperical evidence, and when such a study is presented, the scientific community has no choice but to treat it as they would any other study.  This is not to say the scientific community has to automatically agree with my findings, or even pronounce them correct, but, assuming that none of my evidence or conclusions are faulty, they must agree that it is credible.

I encourage you, then, to learn what you can about proper research and scientific methodology.  It is crucial for investigation, no matter which kind, and absolutely irreplaceable in regards to credibility.  While I do not believe in such things as ghosts or mediums, I am willing to give you any assistance in learning how to sep up proper tests and research to verify wether your findings can be considered credible.

Incidentaly, a proper foundation in scientific methodology can only help you in regards to academic pursuits.  I hope you will give its study consideration.  Good luck.

[lee77]

So-called “paranormal investigators” are wasting their time.  Ghosts are supernatural, therefore, the laws of science do not apply.  Accordingly, they cannot be investigated and there is no way to prove their existence.

When questioned about the absurdity of their quest, paranormal investigators inevitable make vague references to “energy.”  I’ve heard them talk about how ghosts “drain” batteries and “draw energy” from electrical appliances, etc.  Could anything be more ridiculous?  Ghosts were around--and much more prevalent--before the invention of batteries or the discovery of electricity.  What did they “draw energy” from back then?

[Zhao Ri]

So-called “paranormal investigators” are wasting their time. Ghosts are supernatural, therefore, the laws of science do not apply. Accordingly, they cannot be investigated and there is no way to prove their existence.


I don't think its wasting time at all.

I think capturing somthing extroidanarily unusual on camera is very worth while. It has been done before(supposidly or why would anyone waste their time), but I guess closed minded people choose just to ignore the evidence.  

However I am sure that captured evidence has made many nonbelievers believers and that in my opinion is worth while.

And remember science cant prove everything. Look at religion.


Anyway I dont think you should tell someone that their career is a waste. Its what they like to do and its not hurting anyone.

Just a thought.

[lee77]

Something extraordinary on film?  Ghosts have very rarely been captured on film and when they were, it was accidental or by people who were simply visiting a haunted site, not by so-called "ghost-hunters" with a lot of fancy gadgets.

You also say science "can't prove religion."  This is absurd.  Religion is a fact.  It is the existence of god that cannot be proven because God, like ghosts, is supernatural.

Since when is "ghost-hunting" a career?  Yes, con artists like Dave Oester and Sharon Gill of the IGHS call themselves "ghost-hunters" and make a living by preying on the gullible, but they are nothing more than a couple of uneducated buffoons with mail-order "degrees," who know absolutely nothing about the paranormal--or anything else for that matter.

There is also a vast difference between those with an interest in ghosts and "ghost-hunters."  Those with an interest in the paranormal may visit haunted locations, take photos, write about hauntings, etc., but they do not sit around for hours with  cameras and meters, and go on about "energy," etc. because they have better sense.  Almost everyone likes true ghost stories and authors who write about ghosts, unlike "ghost-hunters," aren't branded kooks.

Additionally, the so-called "ghost-hunters" with their gadgetry and preposterous ideas have made it difficult for authors, film-makers, etc. to obtain information about, and/or visit, haunted locations.  I conduct research for "ghost" specials aired on the Discovery Channel, TLC, the History Channel, etc. and almost every time I contact people at a reputedly haunted lighthouse or other location about filming, I am asked, "You're not with that bunch of orb-chasers, are you?" or something similar.

I have always had an interest in the paranormal, but the so-called "ghost-hunters," with their pseudoscience and cockamamie gadgets, are well on their way to making ghosts a boring subject.  

  

[regmanabq]

So-called “paranormal investigators” are wasting their time.  Ghosts are supernatural, therefore, the laws of science do not apply.  Accordingly, they cannot be investigated and there is no way to prove their existence.

Hate to sound sarcastic, but I think it's the only way to respond.

What like other impossible things like:

Nuclear Energy, Quantum Physics, passing the speed of light, electricity, cure for polio, telephones, computers and micro-electronics, going to the moon, heck, everyone knew the world was flat at one time and even the center of the universe.

Everything in the universe is governed by some laws. Sure, we may not know what they are, but that does not mean they are not true. Everything is provable.

As for investigators, I have to agree with most of the posts so far. I find the one's I've met to be very kind and pleasant people willing to explain themselves and help a new guy understand their theories and practices. Would these be the type of people classified as "geeks" by the rest of the world, yes, but that's ok, I'm classified that way quite often too. Good company.

But I do say that many of them do not have a firm grasp of scientific method or good research skills and may not even be aware of anyone elses research. I can't blame them though, since there is no real school you can go to and learn ghost hunting and without those sweet grants it is hard to fund any training or even research while holding down a regular job too. Some courses are available, yes, but nothing like even the lamest formal scientific training.

But, Ben Franklin invented a lot and he was no modern scientist nor was Mr. Bell. Many of the greatest discoveries have been made by a hobbyist in his garage, so they also are in good company.

I am amazed though, at how resistent many ghost hunters are to formal training or any kind of certification. Many just say, "it's experience and I don't need some fancy paper to show I'm a good ghost hunter". There is a good Topic at Ghost Study about this. They do have a point though, how does one get certified if there is no one certified to do the certification?

Do I think they are crazy. NO. Neither do I think Franklin, Bell or even Chris Columbus was crazy, just reaching for the unknown.

People fear what they do not know so they label those who try and find out "crazy" so they don't feel so bad not bothering to learn the truth themselves.

Sign this Future Ghost Hunter who is definitely not crazy! (But I still think it might all be a time travel thing, so I'm not sure it's ghosts anyway!)

[regmanabq]

cockamamie gadgets

What would you consider Cockamamie?

[aquatus1]

Do not forget, science has shown and explained the existance of many 'supernatural' phenomena before.  Lightning, plagues, anything that used to be thought of as a punishment from God, or at least bad luck, has an explanation; the question is, however, is the explanation going to be something that is already part of the known scientific world, or is it something that needs to be addedd to the communal information data base.  It is entirely possible that new forces of Earth are waiting to be discovered in the fields of paranormal and supernatural, however, none of these discoveries will ever be taken seriously unless they are presented following all the rules and requirements of scientific methodology.   It is no excuse to claim that these things cannot be proven; if you wish to be considered a scientist, then proving it is precisely what you are setting out to do.  Anybody can claim anything they want,  but only scientists and researchers have the credibility and validity to back it up.

[lee77]

regmanabq, “Cockamamie gadgets” include any and all equipment used by ghost-hunters to “prove” the existence of ghosts.  None of these items can be applied to investigation of the supernatural because the supernatural CANNOT be investigated.

Now, how about telling me how ghosts “drain” batteries and “draw energy” from electrical devices?

Nuclear energy, quantum physics, exceeding the speed of light, etc., etc. are not paranormal and may be investigated scientifically.  On the other hand, the supernatural, which is neither physical nor material, cannot be explained according to natural laws.

I’m sure Ben Franklin and Alexander Graham Bell would not appreciate being thrown into the same category as two charlatans like Dave Oester and Sharon Gill.  

You claim the reason people refer to “ghost-hunters” as kooks is because “they fear what they do not know.”  This is untrue.  In fact, I would say it is those who fear the paranormal the least who are most likely to dismiss “ghost-hunters” as kooks.

Edited by lee77, 05 January 2005 - 12:12 AM.

[regmanabq]

regmanabq, “Cockamamie gadgets” include any and all equipment used by ghost-hunters to “prove” the existence of ghosts.  None of these items can be applied to investigation of the supernatural because the supernatural CANNOT be investigated.

Now, how about telling me how ghosts “drain” batteries and “draw energy” from electrical devices?

Nuclear energy, quantum physics, exceeding the speed of light, etc., etc. are not paranormal and may be investigated scientifically.  On the other hand, the supernatural, which is neither physical nor material, cannot be explained according to natural laws.

I’m sure Ben Franklin and Alexander Graham Bell would not appreciate being thrown into the same category as two charlatans like Dave Oester and Sharon Gill. 

You claim the reason people refer to “ghost-hunters” as kooks is because “they fear what they do not know.”  This is untrue.  In fact, I would say it is those who fear the paranormal the least who are most likely to dismiss “ghost-hunters” as kooks.

You do have a point there. Those who fear nothing trust no one.

And now I see your point about the gadgets, if you hold that it can't be proven running around with any gadgets would be cockamamie. I see what you were saying.

I disagree and point out that had you told someone a few years ago that a metal tube with some acid in it would hold some mysterious power called electricity which could do all kinds of amazing things, they would have asked you to prove it. Since the science did not know of these things and and no methods to measure it or even theories to explain it, they would have dismissed you as crazy and laughed at your cockamamie research too.

I still don't believe nothing can be proven.

[regmanabq]

PS, why do you say these people are charlatans? Please explain your reasoning. I'd love to know who to stay away from, but you don't say why.

[psychic boy]

there is only one thing i wonder about being a paranormal investgator ....                      How much is the pay.




cuz i wanna be a paranormal investigato

[ZombieKillbot2000]

there is only one thing i wonder about being a paranormal investgator ....                      How much is the pay.




cuz i wanna be a paranormal investigato

I hope you can live off $0 a year.

[Shai_Hulud]

disagree and point out that had you told someone a few years ago that a metal tube with some acid in it would hold some mysterious power called electricity which could do all kinds of amazing things, they would have asked you to prove it.

No Scientists have known about the electricity phenomenon for centuries. They may not understand the principal but they know about electrolysis and reverse electrolysis to get electricity, read your Jules Verne.

Now what is cockamamie devices being bandied about in a few posts? No one actually mentioned what it does. Anyone care to elaborate? Another thing I have issue with is what is supernatural? Why do ppl claim ghosts are that? It's just a word to define when a phenomenon defies nature. Now scientists knows that there is no such word, he knows that nothing happens without a cause. SInce ghosts can be occasionally be seen, heard, felt that means they can be defined right? Is there any reason to believe in ghosts other than anecdotal evidence?