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Call for Europe-Wide Swastika Ban


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#16    Lottie

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Posted 16 January 2005 - 03:30 PM

Stellar I am talking about Nazi scum who use this symbol not the people who use it for peace.  Having had family who suffered at the hands of that bastard (hitler) you have just insulted me.


#17    The Russian Hare

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Posted 16 January 2005 - 03:37 PM

I believe people have a right to express their opinions, no matter how warped or evil they are. On the other hand, I don't believe there's a fundamental human right not to be offended.

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#18    Lottie

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Posted 16 January 2005 - 03:37 PM

QUOTE
free speech is free speech.

If its within the constraints they must be allowed their say, as wrong as what theyre saying may be.


I agree. However there are no constraints for these people. Instead they are allowed to mouth off whatever they please. Redneck is probably right, there needs to be some kind of legal avenue that allows them to say what they have to say.





#19    Stellar

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Posted 16 January 2005 - 03:46 PM

QUOTE
Stellar I am talking about Nazi scum who use this symbol not the people who use it for peace. Having had family who suffered at the hands of that bastard (hitler) you have just insulted me.


Hitler thought the same, you know.

QUOTE
I agree. However there are no constraints for these people. Instead they are allowed to mouth off whatever they please. Redneck is probably right, there needs to be some kind of legal avenue that allows them to say what they have to say.


Im sorry, but I havent heard a lot of mouthing off my the Nazis recently at all. They have their beliefs, however wrong I may think they are, but they're their beliefs.

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#20    Lottie

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Posted 16 January 2005 - 03:58 PM

QUOTE
Stellar I am talking about Nazi scum who use this symbol not the people who use it for peace. Having had family who suffered at the hands of that bastard (hitler) you have just insulted me.


QUOTE
Hitler thought the same, you know.


No there is a difference in thought here.
These thugs have deliberately created a persona around the swastika incorporating everything that is bad. They use this as an excuse to spread racism.
The thousands of Jews, Gypsies and everyone else who wasn't deemed as Germanic did not deliberately create these persona's they were born the way they were.

Edited by Lottie, 16 January 2005 - 03:59 PM.


#21    Stellar

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Posted 16 January 2005 - 04:01 PM

QUOTE
No there is a difference in thought here.
These thugs have deliberately created a persona around the swastika incorporating everything that is bad. They use this as an excuse to spread racism.
The thousands of Jews, Gypsies and everyone else who wasn't deemed as Germanic did not deliberately create these persona's they were born the way they were.


They thought the same of the Jews. THey thought the jews, and to a lesser extent, foreigners, were scheming to take over germany and oppress the german people.

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#22    Lottie

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Posted 16 January 2005 - 04:12 PM

QUOTE(Stellar @ Jan 16 2005, 04:01 PM)
QUOTE
No there is a difference in thought here.
These thugs have deliberately created a persona around the swastika incorporating everything that is bad. They use this as an excuse to spread racism.
The thousands of Jews, Gypsies and everyone else who wasn't deemed as Germanic did not deliberately create these persona's they were born the way they were.


They thought the same of the Jews. THey thought the jews, and to a lesser extent, foreigners, were scheming to take over germany and oppress the german people.

View Post



Completely different. I do not think these twats are racists its obvious they are, they are scheming to create racism. Everyone knows this. You can see it and hear them at rallies, through websites and in media tat.



Edited by Lottie, 16 January 2005 - 04:13 PM.


#23    Stellar

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Posted 16 January 2005 - 04:21 PM

QUOTE
Completely different. I do not think these twats are racists its obvious they are, they are scheming to create racism.


They thought the same of the jews.

QUOTE
Everyone knows this. You can see it and hear them at rallies, through websites and in media tat.


I know. You can see something similar even in the US, in great numbers: The people saying we should nuke the middle east, the ones who discriminate against homosexuals... whatever. I may think its wrong, but I'm not gonna say they dont have the right to have their beliefs and speak of them if they want.

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#24    Erikl

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Posted 16 January 2005 - 04:32 PM

No, people, I'm afraid you give way too much credit for freedom of speech.
Wun, would you give a child molestar the freedom of move? ofcouse not, he should be behind bars.
But then again, the freedom to travel and move is even more basic and more universall than the freedom of speech.

The Nazis lost their freedom of speech 60 years ago, because of their actions.
You can look at banning their freedom of speech as a suitable equivalent of banning the freedom of travel for criminals, cause that's what there are - criminals.


And for Stellar - either u are a complete ignorant in WW2 history, or u have no idea what Nazism is.
Hating Nazism isn't the same as being a nazi, u know.
The Nazis hated Jews and other ppl for their blood, and with no reason whatsoever.
You could be a strict christian, but because ur grandpa was Jewish, u would have been killed.
You could be a general in the German army, but because you are Jewish, you would have been gassed to death and ur body burned to ashes.
No reason whatsoever other than hatred.
The Jews were loyal citizens. They were very patriotic in Germany and other countries in Europe. They didn't harm the German ppl - as a matter of fact, they pretty much assimilated into the German society.
Talking about consceince? well, nazis though conscience and good will in general are for the weak. Being "evil", raough, and brutal, is the "right" way to go, according to them, cause we are all animals, and the "better" one need to feed on the weak and ill.
That is the nazi theory. Pure evil, mock to morality, love for brutality, hatred for anything good and enlightened. And I'm not saying this subjectively - I'm saying this as a person who leaned much about them.

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#25    Lottie

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Posted 16 January 2005 - 04:36 PM

I am fully aware of what they thought of the Jews, its a small part of my personal history.  

QUOTE
Completely different. I do not think these twats are racists its obvious they are, they are scheming to create racism.

QUOTE
They thought the same of the jews.


They thought the same of the Jews BUT there was NEVER any evidence to suggest such a thing and it was never the case anyway. Hitler was completely paranoid, picking on people because of the race, religion and background they were born into.

There is plenty of firm hard evidence of what these neo-nazi's are doing.


#26    Lottie

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Posted 16 January 2005 - 04:39 PM

QUOTE(Erikl @ Jan 16 2005, 04:32 PM)
The Nazis lost their freedom of speech 60 years ago, because of their actions.
You can look at banning their freedom of speech as a suitable equivalent of banning the freedom of travel for criminals, cause that's what there are - criminals.

Hating Nazism isn't the same as being a nazi, u know.

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Thank you Erikl.


#27    Stellar

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Posted 16 January 2005 - 05:09 PM

QUOTE
Wun, would you give a child molestar the freedom of move? ofcouse not, he should be behind bars.


Thats because he did something wrong.

QUOTE
The Nazis lost their freedom of speech 60 years ago, because of their actions.


So I suppose the muslims lost their freedom of speech also because of 9/11?

QUOTE
And for Stellar - either u are a complete ignorant in WW2 history, or u have no idea what Nazism is.


I am not ignorant of WW2, and I do know what Nazism is.

QUOTE
Hating Nazism isn't the same as being a nazi, u know.


Did I ever say it was?

QUOTE
The Nazis hated Jews and other ppl for their blood, and with no reason whatsoever.


No, they didnt hate them simply for their blood... they thought that the jews were plotting to take over also. They called them evil, and scum, and said they should have no rights.

QUOTE
You could be a strict christian, but because ur grandpa was Jewish, u would have been killed.
You could be a general in the German army, but because you are Jewish, you would have been gassed to death and ur body burned to ashes.


And since when is a nazi defined as someone who kills jews? That would mean that the neo nazis of today that havent committed any murder are not nazis at all.

QUOTE
The Jews were loyal citizens. They were very patriotic in Germany and other countries in Europe. They didn't harm the German ppl - as a matter of fact, they pretty much assimilated into the German society.


Who says that the people who freely call themselves nazis today arent loyal citizens and patriotic to their countries? The ones that havent committed a murder havent harmed the people of the country...

QUOTE
That is the nazi theory. Pure evil, mock to morality, love for brutality, hatred for anything good and enlightened.


Thats the nazi theory-- from a non nazi perspective. The nazis dont think they're evil, nor do they think they mock morality, they think that their morals are right.  This "Pure evil, mock to morality, love for brutality, hatred of anything good and elightened" is not what defines a nazi from a nazi's point of view.

Edited by Stellar, 16 January 2005 - 05:14 PM.

"I refuse to have a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent."

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#28    Stellar

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Posted 16 January 2005 - 05:13 PM

QUOTE
They thought the same of the Jews BUT there was NEVER any evidence to suggest such a thing and it was never the case anyway. Hitler was completely paranoid, picking on people because of the race, religion and background they were born into.


And you, right now, are advocating removing the freedom of a certain people because of THEIR beliefs.

QUOTE
There is plenty of firm hard evidence of what these neo-nazi's are doing.


What are these neo-nazis doing? Are they all going out killing jews? Are they gassing them? As I've said, theres neo-nazi equivalents everywhere, but since they dont call themselves nazis, no one pays any attention to them. Theres americans that advocate the complete destructions of muslims, but I dont see the american flag being banned...

"I refuse to have a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent."

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#29    The Russian Hare

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Posted 16 January 2005 - 05:41 PM

QUOTE
No, people, I'm afraid you give way too much credit for freedom of speech.
Wun, would you give a child molestar the freedom of move? ofcouse not, he should be behind bars.
But then again, the freedom to travel and move is even more basic and more universall than the freedom of speech.

The Nazis lost their freedom of speech 60 years ago, because of their actions.
You can look at banning their freedom of speech as a suitable equivalent of banning the freedom of travel for criminals, cause that's what there are - criminals.



By definition a child molester has already harmed someone, and he is being imprisoned to protect people, not because of his beliefs. On the other hand, this symbol is being banned simply because what it stands for is extremely offensive to some people.

This is pretty much thought crime.

Nobody here is being punished for what they as an individual did 60 years ago, and nobody is being punished for their association with the Nazi regime. They will be punished for expressing an opinion.

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#30    Lottie

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Posted 16 January 2005 - 06:03 PM

QUOTE
Thats because he did something wrong.


And so these neo-nazi's aren't doing anything wrong by trying to incite hatred and victimising ethic groups?

QUOTE
The Nazis lost their freedom of speech 60 years ago, because of their actions.


QUOTE
So I suppose the muslims lost their freedom of speech also because of 9/11?


Erikl is talking about a group of people who were Nazi's. Not the general populace.

QUOTE
Hating Nazism isn't the same as being a nazi, u know.


QUOTE
Did I ever say it was?


By insinuating that my thoughts were on the same parr with Hitlers.

QUOTE
No, they didnt hate them simply for their blood... they thought that the jews were plotting to take over also. They called them evil, and scum, and said they should have no rights.


Yes we know this and for no reason whatsoever. I on the other hand have a good reason to call these people evil and scum.

QUOTE
And since when is a nazi defined as someone who kills jews?


Since the Nazi party in WW2 decided that if a person was not of a certain breed they were then to the gas chambers.

QUOTE
That would mean that the neo nazis of today that havent committed any murder are not nazis at all.


Wrong. The neo-nazi's of today still follow the same philosophy of the Nazi party back then. The reason why they do not murder people is because they can't get away with it anymore.

QUOTE
Who says that the people who freely call themselves nazis today arent loyal citizens and patriotic to their countries? The ones that havent committed a murder havent harmed the people of the country...


Because they cannot do what the Nazi's back in WW2 did freely.

QUOTE
Thats the nazi theory-- from a non nazi perspective. The nazis dont think they're evil, nor do they think they mock morality, they think that their morals are right.  This "Pure evil, mock to morality, love for brutality, hatred of anything good and elightened" is not what defines a nazi from a nazi's point of view.


It might not be how they considered themselves to be but they were pure evil and its unjustifiable. Anyone who would try and justify what they did should be deeply ashamed. ( I am not saying you justify this by the way).





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