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Hajj pilgrims stone 'devil' Bush, Sharon, Blair


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#1    Wings of Selkhet

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Posted 21 January 2005 - 03:28 PM

MENA, Saudi Arabia (Reuters) -- Hajj pilgrims pelted stones at symbols of the devil on Friday, with many saying they were targeting U.S. President George W. Bush and other world leaders seen as oppressing Muslims.

Last year, 250 people were crushed to death at Mena's Jamarat Bridge, but so far new measures by the Saudi authorities have averted any stampedes.

This year, more than 2.5 million Muslims streamed into the area for the stoning, meant as an act of purification and rejection of temptation.

Many pilgrims said they were thinking of Bush and his allies while they were hurling pebbles at the site where the devil is said to have appeared to the biblical patriarch Abraham.

"Yes, the devil is Bush and that other one from Israel -- (Prime Minister Ariel) Sharon. And there's (British Prime Minister) Blair too," said Egyptian Tia'amah Mohammed.

"We throw the stones so we can vent our anger at them."

Many Muslims revile Bush for his perceived bias towards Israel and the U.S. occupation of Iraq. Anger at Sharon also runs deep over Israel's occupation of Palestinian land and Jerusalem, the site of one of Islam's holiest shrines.

"During the stoning I couldn't help thinking of Bush, Blair and Sharon," said British Muslim activist Yvonne Ridley.

Saudi Arabia, facing a storm of criticism, revamped the Jamarat area, expanding the stoning targets and deploying thousands of security forces to control the crowd.

They also replaced the three pillars the pilgrims stone with thick walls providing a larger target to prevent the crush that normally occurs at the site.

Graffiti denouncing Bush had daubed the pillars. The new walls have so far remained clean.

Other pilgrims said politics did not cross their minds. "This is all about God, and that's all I was thinking about when I threw the stones," Yemeni Ali al-Suweiny said.

Pilgrims, in white robes meant to eradicate differences in race and class between Muslims, have poured into the Jamarat area since Thursday, the first day of the stoning ritual and the start of the Eid al-Adha feast.

Most pilgrims will finish by Friday -- the penultimate day of the Hajj -- and then go to Mecca to circle the Kaaba, which symbolizes the house of God, for the final time.

"Thank God, we have not witnessed anything unusual or any accidents or deaths so far during the stoning," Brigadier Mansour al-Turki told reporters. "We hope the improvements will continue to keep the pilgrims safe."

This year's pilgrimage, a once-in-a-lifetime duty for every able-bodied Muslim, has been overshadowed by the Asian tsunami disaster and the threat of al Qaeda-linked violence in the kingdom, which has been battling the group for nearly two years.

On Thursday, a leading Saudi cleric warned Muslims against waging terror attacks in the name of Islam. The Hajj was first performed by Islam's Prophet Mohammad 1,400 years ago.

http://edition.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/meast/01...reut/index.html

Kinda disconcerting... blink.gif


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#2    Erikl

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Posted 21 January 2005 - 03:32 PM

QUOTE(Wings of Selkhet @ Jan 21 2005, 03:28 PM)

Kinda disconcerting... blink.gif

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No kidding...  wacko.gif

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#3    Nxt2Hvn

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Posted 21 January 2005 - 04:01 PM

It is stuff like this that makes me view the Muslim religion as "Violent"..... hmm.gif

I know they have a right to practice their views, beliefs and religion the way they want to... but just seems a little ... well... barbaric to me   dontgetit.gif

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#4    bathory

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Posted 21 January 2005 - 04:01 PM

lol i love it how the US is oppressing muslims, how quickly they forget Afghanistan (soviet), Kuwait, Kosovo,  and i'd even go so far to argue Afghanistan'01


#5    Erikl

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Posted 21 January 2005 - 04:04 PM

QUOTE(bathory @ Jan 21 2005, 04:01 PM)
lol i love it how the US is oppressing muslims, how quickly they forget Afghanistan (soviet), Kuwait, Kosovo,  and i'd even go so far to argue Afghanistan'01

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It is true though... the worst people to oppress muslims in this century were muslims themselves... Yemen civil war, the take over of Arabia by the Saud family, Lebanon, Iran-Iraq war, Algerian civil war, Syrian political cleansing, Turks against Kurds, etc.

I think they should check themselves and their current leaders before blaiming the entire world for their oppression.

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"We live in a world where when Christians kill Muslims, it's a crusade; When Jews kill Muslims, it's a massacre; When Muslims kill Muslims, it's the weather channel. Nobody cares"

#6    zephyr

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Posted 21 January 2005 - 04:56 PM

Here we go again grin2.gif A couple of quotes in an article and out pours a bunch of generalized, simple minded comments about things we don't at all understand grin2.gif
I tell you what is really barberic yes.gif It's judging a quarter of the humanity by the stereotypes formed in narrow minds through heavy, malicious propaganda which results in blind hatred yes.gif A little bit of thinking might be hard, but will prevent one from being racist, naive and ill informed about the world one lives in. grin2.gif


#7    Erikl

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Posted 21 January 2005 - 05:15 PM

QUOTE(zephyr @ Jan 21 2005, 04:56 PM)
Here we go again grin2.gif A couple of quotes in an article and out pours a bunch of generalized, simple minded comments about things we don't at all understand grin2.gif
I tell you what is really barberic yes.gif It's judging a quarter of the humanity by the stereotypes formed in narrow minds through heavy, malicious propaganda which results in blind hatred yes.gif A little bit of thinking might be hard, but will prevent one from being racist, naive and ill informed about the world one lives in. grin2.gif

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I agree, and if you saw, I wasn't saying that Islam is evil, only that the ones who oppressed muslims worst in this century so far are muslims themsleves, infinitely more than anyone else.
The Iran-Iraq war itself killed 1 million muslims.
Sadaams genocide against the Kurds took 180,000 muslims.
The Turks killed 30,000 kurds in revange of the terror campaign.
The Baath government in Syria killed 20,000 syrians in 1981.
The ayatolah government oppress women and the general public in Iran.
One shouldn't even start discussing how much religious opression is used in Saudi Arabia.
And lets not forget the civil war in Lebanon, and the one in Yemen, and the one in Algeria, and the one in Sudan, all in which muslims killed hundreds of thousands of other muslims.

I think that untill the muslim world will learn to take it's own responsibility for it's situation today, nothing will change.
It's easy to blame others for your suffering, to look for a scapegoat.
Too bad they can't see their own responsibility.

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"We live in a world where when Christians kill Muslims, it's a crusade; When Jews kill Muslims, it's a massacre; When Muslims kill Muslims, it's the weather channel. Nobody cares"

#8    zephyr

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Posted 21 January 2005 - 06:19 PM

QUOTE
I wasn't saying that Islam is evil
I wasn't saying that you were saying that:D
QUOTE
think that untill the muslim world will learn to take it's own responsibility for it's situation today, nothing will change.

Right, and the same goes for everyone else too, the Christians, the Jews, the Buddists, the Hindus, the Athiests... devil.gif
QUOTE
It's easy to blame others for your suffering, to look for a scapegoat

Who said I was suffering? ohmy.gif  I'm not looking for a scapegoat no.gif I am one laugh.gif  If by 'you', you mean me as a muslim, what makes you so sure that I am one? grin2.gif Are you stereotyping again? grin2.gif In any case, I don't see the Muslim world as the big massive block that you tend to see it and find arguing in very general terms quite useless. geek.gif
As for Muslims killing Muslims, it's a logical contradiction since if both parties were Muslims, then why would they kill each other? Both parties might think they are Muslims, but that doesn't make them one no.gif There are warmongers and lunatics and mass murderers who have always pretended to represent god and Islam, but only fools believe them. rolleyes.gif And everyone knows that some of the worse crimes in history have been commited in the name of all religions, and not just Islam. sleepy.gif


#9    Erikl

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Posted 21 January 2005 - 07:09 PM

QUOTE
Who said I was suffering? ohmy.gif I'm not looking for a scapegoat no.gif I am one laugh.gif If by 'you', you mean me as a muslim, what makes you so sure that I am one?


No, by "you" I meant the general laymen in the street which blames Israel, US and all the other western world for it's problems.
Those are the kind of people that threw those stones. Those are the kind of people from Morocco to Pakistan who burn western flags.


QUOTE
Right, and the same goes for everyone else too, the Christians, the Jews, the Buddists, the Hindus, the Athiests...

You know?
If it were only Muslims vs. Jews, or Muslims vs. Christians, I might agree...
but when it's starting to be more clear that it's Muslims vs. Jews, Christians, Hindus and Buddhists, then maybe, just maybe, the muslims should check to see if there's something wrong with their leaders are doing and with their world view that others are to be blamed for the problems of the muslim world.
After all, there are 1.2 billion muslims around the world, so u can't say they are a minority. They also have more than 50 states in which they are a majority (55 states if I'm not mistaken).

I'm not saying that they are totaly wrong and eveybody else are totaly right - there's no black and white in this issue. But considering that many of the current conflicts around the world are where Muslims are fighting against non-muslims, maybe they should check themselves to see what they have been doing wrong by their side.

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"We live in a world where when Christians kill Muslims, it's a crusade; When Jews kill Muslims, it's a massacre; When Muslims kill Muslims, it's the weather channel. Nobody cares"

#10    warden

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Posted 21 January 2005 - 07:20 PM

I remember when i was young getting told we are all equal,we are all human beings,

black

white

catholic

musleim

jew

the list goes on,what has happened since then?

I have a view that would upset some but be loved by others

I will not give either side the satisfaction of hounding and bringing me down

I did not think that is a christian thing to do

so i will let you all make a fool of your selfs doing it


#11    Hotoke

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Posted 21 January 2005 - 09:39 PM

QUOTE
targeting U.S. President George W. Bush and other world leaders seen as oppressing Muslims.



something is clearly wrong with them. what has the US done to muslims? they attacked countries but never their religion


QUOTE
I meant the general laymen in the street which blames Israel, US and all the other western world for it's problems



that is so true. i know many muslims who think like that.I have reason to believe msoques are the reasons for that. some imans are teaching their extreme thoughts to young children

So you have come this far and still you understand nothing. Every light must fade, every heart return to darkness! Behold the endless abyss! Within it lies the heart of all worlds

#12    zephyr

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Posted 22 January 2005 - 12:07 PM

QUOTE
No, by "you" I meant the general laymen in the street which blames Israel, US and all the other western world for it's problems

You have defined a new meaning for the word 'you'. grin2.gif
QUOTE
Those are the kind of people that threw those stones. Those are the kind of people from Morocco to Pakistan who burn western flags.

It's a long way from Morocco to Pakistan, and if you're designating the Muslim world by that, you stopped too early in the west since there are Muslims further east than Pakistan. yes.gif And people have been doing the Hajj ceremonies long before any of the modern states existed. So it's completely wrong to assume ( or pretend) that any current political conflict might be at the origins of stone throwing at the Hajj. original.gif  
QUOTE
but when it's starting to be more clear that it's Muslims vs. Jews, Christians, Hindus and Buddhists,

I don't think you and I are talking about the same world. blink.gif  
QUOTE
the muslims should check to see if there's something wrong with their leaders

I agree and add that others such as the Jews and the Christians should do the same. yes.gif Boy, I never thought I would be dragged into making such simple minded over-generalizations. devil.gif
QUOTE
But considering that many of the current conflicts around the world are where Muslims are fighting against non-muslims, maybe they should check themselves to see what they have been doing wrong by their side

And the generalizations continue sleepy.gif Where exactly are you talking about? Which conflict are you exactly refering to? As I said before talking in general terms only leads to confusion and I don't believe, like you do in any relgious wars or line-ups along the lines you are talking about. Generalized slogans are boring and I don't why I have my ears full of that.  sleepy.gif
QUOTE
the list goes on,what has happened since then?

Nothing, only the number of idiots and those who exploit them has increased sharply in the world grin2.gif
QUOTE
that is so true. i know many muslims who think like that

And I know many who don't. geek.gif




#13    warden

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Posted 22 January 2005 - 12:22 PM

I warned you all this would happen

waiting for round two

in the red corner we have one side that is always right

and in the other corner we have the other side that is always right

get the picture


#14    zephyr

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Posted 22 January 2005 - 02:26 PM

And red in the middle we have a judge who doesn't know who's right grin2.gif


#15    Homer

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Posted 22 January 2005 - 03:01 PM

QUOTE(Erikl @ Jan 21 2005, 01:15 PM)
I agree, and if you saw, I wasn't saying that Islam is evil, only that the ones who oppressed muslims worst in this century so far are muslims themsleves, infinitely more than anyone else.
The Iran-Iraq war itself killed 1 million muslims.
Sadaams genocide against the Kurds took 180,000 muslims.
The Turks killed 30,000 kurds in revange of the terror campaign.
The Baath government in Syria killed 20,000 syrians in 1981.
The ayatolah government oppress women and the general public in Iran.
One shouldn't even start discussing how much religious opression is used in Saudi Arabia.
And lets not forget the civil war in Lebanon, and the one in Yemen, and the one in Algeria, and the one in Sudan, all in which muslims killed hundreds of thousands of other muslims.

I think that untill the muslim world will learn to take it's own responsibility for it's situation today, nothing will change.
It's easy to blame others for your suffering, to look for a scapegoat.
Too bad they can't see their own responsibility.

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You are absolutely right Erikl thumbsup.gif


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