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Does Space have a secret?


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#16    TheOracle

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Posted 26 April 2003 - 05:40 AM

                                                  I guess we will just have to decide on whether to take the Blue pill or the Red pill  biggrin.gif                                                  

Never play Leap Frog with a Unicorn.

#17    Kismit

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Posted 26 April 2003 - 09:47 AM

                                                  I can't see what's wrong with this thread . I have read over all the information put forth in these post's and calculated the degrees of probabillity to within 3.1472% of accuracy and the answer is obviosly  47.
    It scares the *something nasty* out of me.  unsure.gif                                                  


#18    SpaceyKC

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Posted 26 April 2003 - 11:46 AM

                                                  

            ohmy.gif  Kismit!  And those riddle makers think they've got you
                fooled! HA!



               TO,   now that you've posed the question,  what would
             be your answer?   ponder.gif                                                  


#19    Sidhe

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Posted 26 April 2003 - 01:41 PM

                                                  Here's an answer for Homer and his atom counting experiment.

The crux of your issue with j6p lies in a critical conundrum in science that still isn't resolved today.  j6p has some standing if he thinks expectation may play a role in what you discover.  Quantum physics shows that things don't "exist" in a tangible sense until an observer actually goes looking for them.

So, to the quesion of how many atoms exist in the sun.. we have a couple of problems..  Science can give a very good estimate of the number.  Then, if they had an enormous detector, they could sample a certain number of them and make an even better educated guess.  But in a very real sense, the *actual* number of particles that makes up the sun may not be an issue "decided" until someone actually goes to the trouble of counting them..

I don't mind making the leap, scientifically unjustified as yet, that j6p makes.. i.e., the "macro" level world might be as "undecided" as the quantum world.  At the very least, we can't deny his theory out of hand.  The jury is definitely out on that one.

The funny thing is, science has known about this "incompleteness" since the early 20th century, but we still grow up thinking things are solid and countable all up and down the scale, when really, it is only once you reach a certain size that this becomes the case, apparently.

The philosophy called  phenomenalism suggests that only our looking and paying attention to the things we percieve turns them into "real" objects.  What's fascinating is they came up with this idea long before science caught up with them and showed that it was indeed the case at the "lowest" level of reality.                                                  


#20    Homer

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Posted 27 April 2003 - 02:22 AM

                                                  Sidhe,
Thank you, you have shown that I am correct. In some thought processes, some believe that it isn't real if you can't perceive it. Those same thought processes believe that if a tree falls in the forest, and nobody is there to hear it, then it doesn't make a sound. Those same thought processes believe that asking he right questions will give you all the answers. In all circumstances, those thought processes are wrong. How are they wrong, you might ask? because I perceive them to be wrong, and by those very thought processes, what you perceive is your reality. smile.gif

But seriously, though, that whole 'reality is what I perceive it to be' is ridiculous, in my humble opinion. In our 3 dimensional spacial universe, 2+2 will always equal 4. Always. It doesn't matter what you call the values, 2 will always be 2 until it isn't 2 anymore. That being said, if someone perceived the sum of the value of 2, added with the value of another 2, as being something other than value of 4, than they are wrong. Their perception doesn't make it real.

Also, I want some examples of how asking the right questions reveals the secrets of the universe, as j6p states. Also, what does j6p mean by "The only secrets that space has are those that we create?" This implies that every secret in the entire universe is created by us. What gives?                                                  

אַ֭תָּה אֱלֹהֵ֣י יִשְׁעִ֑י

#21    Bizarro

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Posted 27 April 2003 - 02:46 AM

                                                  well, i dont have my astronomy book handy(its buried in a box under 20 boxes of books) but i can remember another instance of asking the right question:

i was going to post a link, but considering our discussion the other night, Homer, i will just post the text here smile.gif

Sir Frederick William Herschel (1738-1822) was born in Hanover, Germany, and became well known as both a musician and an astronomer. He emigrated to England in 1757, and with his sister Caroline, constructed telescopes to survey the night sky. Their work resulted in several catalogs of double stars and nebulae. Herschel is perhaps most famous for his discovery of the planet Uranus in 1781, the first new planet found since antiquity.
In the year 1800, Herschel made another very important discovery. He was interested in learning how much heat passed through the different colored filters he used to observe the Sun and noticed that filters of different colors seemed to pass different levels of heat. Herschel thought that the colors themselves might contain different levels of heat, so he devised a clever experiment to investigate his hypothesis.

Herschel directed sunlight through a glass prism to create a spectrum - the "rainbow" created when light is divided into its colors - and measured the temperature of each color. He used three thermometers with blackened bulbs (to better absorb the heat) and placed one bulb in each color while the other two were placed beyond the spectrum as control samples. As he measured the temperatures of the violet, blue, green, yellow, orange and red light, he noticed that all of the colors had temperatures higher than the controls and that the temperature of the colors increased from the violet to the red part of the spectrum. After noticing this pattern, Herschel decided to measure the temperature just beyond the red portion of the spectrum in a region apparently devoid of sunlight. To his surprise, he found that this region had the highest temperature of all.

Herschel performed further experiments on what he called the "calorific rays" that existed beyond the red part of the spectrum and found that they were reflected, refracted, absorbed and transmitted just like visible light. What Sir William had discovered was a form of light (or radiation) beyond red light. These "calorific rays" were later renamed infrared rays or infrared radiation (the prefix infra means `below'). Herschel's experiment was important not only because it led to the discovery of infrared, but also because it was the first time that someone showed that there were forms of light that we cannot see with our eyes. Herschel's original prism and mirror are on display at the National Museum of Science and Industry in London, England.

Today, infrared technology has many exciting and useful applications. In the field of infrared astronomy, new and fascinating discoveries are being made about the Universe. Medical infrared imaging is a very useful diagnostic tool. Infrared cameras are used for police and security work as well as in fire fighting and in the military. Infrared imaging is used to detect heat loss in buildings and in testing electronic systems. Infrared satellites have been used to monitor the Earth's weather, to study vegetation patterns, and to study geology and ocean temperatures.  




so here is an instance of asking the right question.  Herschel didn't know why there was heat in an area of the spectrum that he could not see, but it existed.  he asked the right question, and a secret was revealed.                                                    

if there was a meteor,
adrift amongst space,
set about on a collision course
not with Earth, but my face...
i wonder if id even know,
at what time i might,
be passed off like an old style
and by the meteor be smite?

- me, 1997

#22    j6p

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Posted 27 April 2003 - 05:51 AM

                                                  I marvel at your logic Homeruser posted image
I'll try to clear up what I meant.
If you take any problem that has ever been solved in the recorded history of the human race and follow it back to where it was first conceived you will find that there were a series of questions asked or experiments performed in order to find the solution to that problem. Along the way you will find that there were some wrong answers but eventually the solution was found. One of many examples that I can offer now is cancer. We will find a cure but there will be many more experiments performed (questions asked) before we get to the final cure (answer). My mind reels at the flood of input relating to examples that I can put forth so what I will do is this. I'll ask. What answer needs no question?
As far as "the only secrets in the universe are the ones we create" I'll stand by that and try to clear it up by adding: There are no secrets of the universe only unknowns, if we call them secrets of the universe then we are affording the universe the status of a thinking entity that holds secrets from us. The universe isn't alive it holds no secrets.
Another way that I look at it is that there are many things out there in space that are now unknown to us. They aren't secrets because we aren't aware of them yet. When we become aware of them then they can be called secrets. Somebody has to know something before it can be held as a secret.
For some reason I detect that we are closer on this one than it may appear.                                                  


#23    Homer

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Posted 28 April 2003 - 05:42 AM

                                                  j6p,
I am now of the belief that instead of a difference of opinion, there is a misunderstanding of what is being said. I have been correct from the start(obviously), and now that you cleared it up, I see your point. DS's post only confirmed my belief, because Herschel's discoveries were due to questions and experiments. But your statement:"We will find a cure but there will be many more experiments performed (questions asked) before we get to the final cure (answer)" indicated the questions are the experiments. Where I come from, they are two different things.                                                  

אַ֭תָּה אֱלֹהֵ֣י יִשְׁעִ֑י

#24    Sageghost

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Posted 28 April 2003 - 11:41 AM

                                                  I believe that eventually (if the human race lasts) we can and will find answers to conceivably any question we might ask ourselves. I agree in that it isn't a case of unlocking 'secrets' more it'll be a process of discovering knowledge through a process of trial and error.

But could there be one question that will always elude us?

WHY ARE WE HERE?

(as in the meaning-of-life, deep fundamental question)

Maybe we have to die B4 we find out about that one?                                                  

I was just thinking that of all the trails in this life, there is one that matters more than all the others. It is the trail of a true human being.

#25    Kismit

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Posted 28 April 2003 - 11:51 AM

                                                  
QUOTE
I am now of the belief that instead of a difference of opinion, there is a misunderstanding of what is being said. I have been correct from the start(obviously),

   laugh.gif  @ Homer                                                  


#26    Bizarro

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Posted 28 April 2003 - 02:11 PM

                                                  I. The scientific method has four steps
1. Observation and description of a phenomenon or group of phenomena.

2. Formulation of an hypothesis to explain the phenomena. In physics, the hypothesis often takes the form of a causal mechanism or a mathematical relation.

3. Use of the hypothesis to predict the existence of other phenomena, or to predict quantitatively the results of new observations.

4. Performance of experimental tests of the predictions by several independent experimenters and properly performed experiments.

If the experiments bear out the hypothesis it may come to be regarded as a theory or law of nature (more on the concepts of hypothesis, model, theory and law below). If the experiments do not bear out the hypothesis, it must be rejected or modified. What is key in the description of the scientific method just given is the predictive power (the ability to get more out of the theory than you put in; see Barrow, 1991) of the hypothesis or theory, as tested by experiment. It is often said in science that theories can never be proved, only disproved. There is always the possibility that a new observation or a new experiment will conflict with a long-standing theory.



in other words, Homer, the question comes before the experiments  laugh.gif                                                  

if there was a meteor,
adrift amongst space,
set about on a collision course
not with Earth, but my face...
i wonder if id even know,
at what time i might,
be passed off like an old style
and by the meteor be smite?

- me, 1997

#27    Homer

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Posted 28 April 2003 - 03:37 PM

                                                  DS,
By that statement, it makes me even more accurate, because it means the questions are not the same as the experiments, which is what I have been saying from the start. So by that statement, asking the right questions would only be a step in answering the mysteries of space.
                                                  

אַ֭תָּה אֱלֹהֵ֣י יִשְׁעִ֑י

#28    Sidhe

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Posted 28 April 2003 - 04:28 PM

                                                  Homer, it is obvious you like to construct logical arguments.  But you are still arguing like a Modernist, and this is the post-postmodern era now.  Familiarize yourself with some ideas that were new in the 1920s, particularly Godel's "incompleteness theorem," the high strangeness that is Quantum Mechanics, and General Relativity, and get back to us.  I think you'll see your "position" doesn't really exist.

It's ironic that you are making your position "true" by thinking it so, yet you are arguing against thought having anything to do with what we percieve..                                                  


#29    Homer

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Posted 28 April 2003 - 04:51 PM

                                                  Sidhe,
You post as if you havenít read anything that has been written before. I had already stated that with j6p we had a miscommunication, and in fact we both agree on this. DS has posted twice confirming my Ďpositioní(as you like to call it), and I am quite familiar with quantum mechanics and have posted about those theories more than anyone on this board.

You seem to be the only one now who doesnít get it, and yet you want me to familiarize myself with other theories and get back to you. How convenient. rolleyes.gif
Instead, why donít you humor the forum and let me know where Iím wrong.                                                  

אַ֭תָּה אֱלֹהֵ֣י יִשְׁעִ֑י

#30    Bizarro

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Posted 28 April 2003 - 06:14 PM

                                                  Homer, you are logical snake that slithers in and around things without ever admitting you are wrong.  it is possible that you are wrong from time to time though as witnessed by this statement on page one:

QUOTE
j6p, asking the right question doesn't guarantee the right answer. For example, my question is:How many atoms are there in our sun? That could be considered a secret(or a mystery, as I have explained earlier about more appropriate words to describe it). Nobody knows this answer, and nobody will ever know this answer, and by your argument, it's because we didn't ask the right question. What about my question? Why wouldn't that be the right question for the information I'm wanting?

I guess I don't understand what you mean by the 'right question'  


now, you are correct that asking the right question doesnt GUARANTEE the right answer, but in my post of the scientific method above, asking the RIGHT question is imperative to finding truth.  someone may just know the answer to your question about the sun if they come up with the correct hypothesis and it is proven to be a law.  that will not happen until someone asks the right question smile.gif

as for your statements on page 2 of this, i just ignored them because you went way off on some philosophical tangent(perception doesn't equal reality stuff) when i was simply making points on your original argument.  i admire your logic but sometimes it convolutes your common sense  laugh.gif                                                  

if there was a meteor,
adrift amongst space,
set about on a collision course
not with Earth, but my face...
i wonder if id even know,
at what time i might,
be passed off like an old style
and by the meteor be smite?

- me, 1997




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