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The U.S. Master Atrocity List


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#1    4dplane

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Posted 08 February 2005 - 09:25 AM

I would like this thread to become a place where the people of UM can place a tuff review of the U.S.’s past and current life in regards to humanity. I am looking for stories/articles/facts that pertaining to the atrocities the U.S. has committed on its people and the world for its own opulence. From the near genocide of Native Americans, to the nuking of 150 thousand+ men, woman and children for a swift end of WWII, the U.S. has committed atrocity after atrocity to retain its dominant influence over the world.

By no means does this thread have to get ugly (or locked!) – All I am looking for is a good place to list and read about the past and current atrocities the U.S. has committed on the world – what is the harm in that?

Most important of them all! – If you post, please post a source / concept to back up your clam, this will help to weed out any stories that are most likely/obviously propaganda.

The bombing of Japan
http://www.theleftcoaster.com/archives/002442.html
Indian Massacre
http://www.brainyencyclopedia.com/encyclop...n_massacre.html
Population of Native Americans Today
http://www.americanwest.com/pages/indrank.htm

A few may think I am a poor citizen of the United States for trying to start a thread about the horrors of the U.S. – If they had it their way I would be shot; luckily for me this is not the case – Yet!  ph34r.gif

All right, enough said, let the list begin!


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#2    et's daddy

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Posted 08 February 2005 - 10:09 AM

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Native_American

id say the term "native american" is false and they had no more claim to this land then anyone else

dont bash me as an indian hater.  i dont support how the colonization of america was handled, but i do believe there is some misinformation going on.


#3    bathory

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Posted 08 February 2005 - 10:18 AM

QUOTE
The bombing of Japan


has been discussed many times
you are dealing with a what if scenario, the fact of the matter is, while the Japanese government was showing signs of wanting to surrender, the Japanese military weren't too happy about it. While the Emperor and the politicians were considering surrender, the Japanese millitary were preparing for the final battle on the mainland.  In which as all ground invasions tend to go, would have been far bloodier:)  If you know, Japan hadn't surrendered...



#4    warden

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Posted 08 February 2005 - 10:50 AM

Making sure that i am here today ,thats what i thank America for




#5    DC09

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Posted 08 February 2005 - 01:57 PM

QUOTE
In which as all ground invasions tend to go, would have been far bloodier.


Yep. Way more people would have died if we hadn't bombed. With a ground invasion the death toll would have mounted to well over a million. Some officials in Japan were actually trying to assasinate the empreror so he would not surrender, even after the second bomb was dropped.

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30 Worst Atrocities of the 20th Century








#6    Vegeta8300

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Posted 08 February 2005 - 02:36 PM

I think a US atrocity list isnt gonna be that large. First, certain so-called atrocities can't really be included. The bombing of Japan happend during war and to end a war. That can't be compared to say out right genocide like the Holocaust. Also, the colonization of America and the killing of Native Americans was caused by many European countries first then America after we were declared independant. So it's hard to drawn a line as what is labeled an atrocity.

IMHO I would give the example of an atrocity as the Holocaust or other mass genocide incidents. In that take, you will be hard pressed to find the US guilty of that. I am not saying the US is perfect, we all know they dont always do the right thing. But, when compared to the rest of the world as shown even by Kellalors graphs the US hasent really killed many people or commited atrocities.

So I am afraid the list isnt gonna be to long tongue.gif if there can even be a list.

Edited by Vegeta8300, 08 February 2005 - 02:37 PM.


#7    Homer

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Posted 08 February 2005 - 02:49 PM

Except for the massacres of the Native Americans, which were really many smaller scale atrocities, the list of U.S. atrocities is miniscule.

Instead of having a thread to discuss this, perhaps 4dplane could just do his own research on U.S. history  rolleyes.gif


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#8    joc

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Posted 08 February 2005 - 03:02 PM

I hereby change the thread to The Great Things America Has Done For the World thread.   Feel free to list your favs. grin2.gif



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#9    Vegeta8300

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Posted 08 February 2005 - 03:50 PM

That would be a nice thing joc original.gif The US has done many great things too, as have many countries. Its funny, just as in normal life, you can do many great things but as soon as you mess up everyone notices. Just like at work, you do your work everyday, do a good job, then BAM! you mess up once and all hell comes down on you.

I think to instill a little cheerfulness into this message board we should do a "What are the best things countries have done for the world" thread. It doesn't have to be just the US as to give all people that love their respective countries a chance to be patriotic. But, the US is almost always at the forefront of controversy here, so would figure the most comments would be about it. Anyway, thats my take on it.


#10    fearfulone

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Posted 08 February 2005 - 04:01 PM

The Native American Conflict, as it can be called, can hardly be used as an example.  When the English came over, they settled the land and defended it whenever attacked by the Native Americans.  When the French came over, they helped the indians attack the English for their own prosperity.  By the time it was the United States of America, more than 60% of the original Native American population had been killed off or died from disease.  Also, if you're going to call that an atrocity, you might as well call any colonization effort an atrocity, because i'm sure the english, the spanish (in mexico as a matter of fact), and the french killed their fair share of natives in the lands they colonized.

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#11    4dplane

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Posted 09 February 2005 - 12:55 AM

QUOTE(et's daddy)
id say the term "native american" is false and they had no more claim to this land then anyone else.

I had a Native American English class and I learned that the term Native American vs. Indian was the better of the two. I believe college kids in the sixties coined the term Native American because they thought it was more political correct. Columbus gave the name “Indian” to the indigenous people of the west because he thought they had landed in India.

QUOTE(et's daddy)
dont bash me as an indian hater. i dont support how the colonization of america was handled, but i do believe there is some misinformation going on.

Um what?

QUOTE(bathory)
In which as all ground invasions tend to go, would have been far bloodier

I have heard another “if then” scenario and it goes like:
Japan was running out of oil and in a short time, they would have had no war machine. From this point, you starve the people into submission by containment or they live in shambles until they do surrender. Neither the A-bomb nor an invasion of Japan was needed to end the war, Japan had already lost!

Let us not also forget that the US wanted an absolute surrender by Japan – which meant that the Emperor had to step down and announce to his people that he was not a living god. This was the catalyst to the Japanese promise to fight until the last man, woman and child. The US could have simply done things differently but instead it wanted to see things go BOOM! Just like children.

Post World War II
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emperor_of_Japan

QUOTE(Vegeta8300)
I think a US atrocity list isnt gonna be that large. First, certain so-called atrocities can't really be included. The bombing of Japan happend during war and to end a war. That can't be compared to say out right genocide like the Holocaust. Also, the colonization of America and the killing of Native Americans was caused by many European countries first then America after we were declared independant. So it's hard to drawn a line as what is labeled an atrocity.

Well to me these two incidences in American history can be included in a list of U.S. atrocities and that is just a difference of opinion you and I have. You can make excuses about the use of nukes for “good” reasons, but to me there is never a good reason, let alone a good reason to build one.

I was not comparing the two Atrocities; I listed them more as a set of atrocities from a – z.

Many slaughtered, murdered, raped, forgotten, lied to American Indians were had after the Independence of America.

Relax the word atrocity, and put “ugly incident” in its place. Can you think of any now?

QUOTE(Homer)
Except for the massacres of the Native Americans, which were really many smaller scale atrocities, the list of U.S. atrocities is miniscule.

Instead of having a thread to discuss this, perhaps 4dplane could just do his own research on U.S. history 

Smaller atrocities! You relize you are deemphasize atrocities to debunk my clams
And…


QUOTE(Joc)
I hereby change the thread to The Great Things America Has Done For the World thread. Feel free to list your favs. 

I knew somebody would say that! – I think it would make for a great new thread.  tongue.gif

The US has been a great nation to the world YES! – at the same time the U.S. is possibly the worst nation the world has ever seen.

QUOTE(Vegeta8300)
I think to instill a little cheerfulness into this message board we should do a "What are the best things countries have done for the world" thread. It doesn't have to be just the US as to give all people that love their respective countries a chance to be patriotic. But, the US is almost always at the forefront of controversy here, so would figure the most comments would be about it. Anyway, thats my take on it.

Sounds great, again why not make a thread that asks for a compiled list of good deeds the U.S. has done, I will be sure to post an idea on it.


QUOTE(fearfulone)
The Native American Conflict, as it can be called, can hardly be used as an example. When the English came over, they settled the land and defended it whenever attacked by the Native Americans. When the French came over, they helped the indians attack the English for their own prosperity. By the time it was the United States of America, more than 60% of the original Native American population had been killed off or died from disease. Also, if you're going to call that an atrocity, you might as well call any colonization effort an atrocity, because i'm sure the english, the spanish (in mexico as a matter of fact), and the french killed their fair share of natives in the lands they colonized.

True many people killed Native Americans – but as of July 4, 1776, the U.S. did a lot to destroy the fabric of Native American life.

-- OK – thanks all for your comments. I was/am hoping to get a few tuff individuals that are not scared to post their thoughts on a country that has effected so many in so many horrible ways. I can list 10 of them of the top of my head, but I am not looking to take the full brunt of debate; again does anyone have an atrocity they feel the U.S. has committed? If so please post here.

Remember, an atrocity / ugly incident does not have to be war – indirect exploitation and murder also count.


Edited by 4dplane, 09 February 2005 - 01:08 AM.

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#12    jjtss

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Posted 09 February 2005 - 02:14 AM

An atrocity is not necessarily measured or defined by the number of people killed, but rather by the premeditated inhumanity of a particular program or project.  With that definition we would have to cite tha US for it's programs at Abu Graib and it's use of Depleted Uranium Weapons as atrocities and /or war crimes.  I am sorry if US"Patriots" are offended by this post but REAL human Patriots would agree with me and like me do what they can to put a stop to these actions by elected officials even is it means putting the POTUS in prison.


#13    Novo

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Posted 09 February 2005 - 02:28 AM

Im a native american, red cherokee thank you. I know my roots, and you didnt steal our land from us-You claimed it. We lived with one with mother nature. You guys claimed it, we merely lived on it.

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#14    fearfulone

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Posted 09 February 2005 - 03:17 AM

QUOTE
The US has been a great nation to the world YES! – at the same time the U.S. is possibly the worst nation the world has ever seen.



wow, compared to some of the other nations in our history...thats a damn bold statement....
the roman empire
the ottoman empire
the germans in the early 1900's


three, and im sure there are many more, nations that have been far more destructive to the world and the state of it at that time... no.gif

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#15    Vegeta8300

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Posted 09 February 2005 - 03:43 AM

Ok, this is gonna be hard to get my point across, but ill try  thumbsup.gif  .  

First, you are talking about ugly incidents/atrocities committed by the government? Cause you could say slavery was an atrocity. But, that was only certain people. Not the whole country. We had a little war called the Civil War that put a stop to that.
Second, Acts durning war can't be included. War changes the whole perspective of things. Kill or be killed, all is fair. If you don't do everything you can to defeat your enemy, your enemy will do everything in its power to destroy you. If Japan had the A-bomb first you can bet that a big chunk of California would be missing.
Finally, The Abu Graibh incident is definitely a horrible thing. But I wouldn't call it a atrocity, maybe ugly incident. But it doesn't represent the US as a whole let alone the military as a whole on how a few people acted. If ya wanna see a prison atrocity go check out what happen to POWs in WW2 that were in German and Japanese prison camps.

Anyway, the point Im trying to get across is that for all the major world powers in the history of the world the US has been the most benign. Now, of course the US hasn't done everything perfect but when you compare these incidents ( which I don't see many listed yet to compare) to Saddam gassing the Kurds, the Holocaust, Stalins treatment of his own people. I think you hard pressed to compare the US's actions to things of this magnitude. And those are definitely atrocities.

Edited by Vegeta8300, 09 February 2005 - 03:44 AM.





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