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Kurt Cobain: Murder or Suicide?


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#1    Disinterested

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Posted 26 April 2005 - 07:36 PM

Debate suggestion by star_child.

Did Kurt Cobain really commit suicide on that fateful day of April 5th, 1994, or was he somehow murdered?

Currently, we have star_child who will be debating that his death was the result of his suicide; and we are looking for one more participant to debate that he had been murdered.

This will be a formal, 1 vs 1 debate and will consist of one introduction, five body posts and one conclusion. Sources will need to be referenced, discussions kept civil and please keep the 7 day time-frame in mind, or points will be deducted from your final score.

Any questions, please PM me. thumbsup.gif


#2    Disinterested

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Posted 06 June 2005 - 03:24 PM

Still looking for 1 participant to debate against Star Child and that Cobain's death was murder.  

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#3    AuntieBigfoot

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Posted 17 June 2005 - 06:21 AM

No, wait. Is the other person suppose to prove it was suicide? That is kind of hard..isn't it? 5 posts worth?

Edited by AuntieBigfoot, 17 June 2005 - 06:23 AM.


#4    Disinterested

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Posted 17 June 2005 - 02:46 PM

star_child will be debating that his death was suicide, and we're looking for someone to debate that his death was actually murder.

I'm sure that either side could easily come up with enough material for 5 posts.


#5    AuntieBigfoot

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Posted 18 June 2005 - 11:42 PM

After a private message from Star Child explaining to me how it is supposed to work (thank you!  original.gif ) then I would be willing to give this one a go.
I think there is sufficient evidence to prove it was murder.
If Star Child wants to finish her Bush debate before starting with this one, I'd be happy to wait..it's completely up to her  thumbsup.gif

Edited by AuntieBigfoot, 18 June 2005 - 11:43 PM.


#6    Disinterested

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Posted 18 June 2005 - 11:47 PM

Great! Unless star_child tells me differently, I assume that she's anxious to get this debate started. thumbsup.gif

star_child will debate that Kurt Cobain's death was suicide;
AuntieBigfoot will debate that his death was murder.

Again, this is a formal, 1 vs 1 debate. Each participant is required to post one introduction, five body posts and one conclusion. Posts must be made within 7 days of your opponent.

You can begin when you're ready! Good luck!


#7    star_child

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Posted 20 June 2005 - 06:04 PM

Oh, I can't wait to get this started!

Would you mind, Dis and Auntie, if I finished my other one first? It won't be long.

Oh, and thanks AuntieBigfoot, I have been waiting for ages for this grin2.gif

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#8    Disinterested

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Posted 20 June 2005 - 06:06 PM

star_child, no problem. You can get started once your other debate is done.

Auntie, if you'd like to post your introduction, even to just get it out of the way for the time being, feel free to do so. thumbsup.gif


#9    star_child

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Posted 20 June 2005 - 06:08 PM

Oh, thats excellent. Thank you both grin2.gif

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#10    Lottie

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Posted 24 June 2005 - 10:40 PM

*pause button pressed*

Unfortunately AuntiBigFoot has had to pull out of this debate due to personal circumstances.

So we are looking for 1 person to debate that his death was Murder.


#11    Nordberg5150

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Posted 28 June 2005 - 09:11 PM

Hi, I'm a newbie here, I have no formal debating experience either yet I feel fairly confident in arguing the side of murder on this topic.  If no one else has signed up for that yet, I'll give it a shot.  Let me know.


#12    Disinterested

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Posted 30 June 2005 - 03:46 AM

Great!!!

Now to recap:

star_child will debate that Kurt Cobain's death was suicide;
Nordberg5150 will debate that his death was murder.

Instructions are above, if there are any questions please PM me. thumbsup.gif

Good luck!


#13    Nordberg5150

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Posted 30 June 2005 - 11:15 PM

April 8th, 1994.  A day which for many music fans will not soon be forgotten.  Just as those who grew up in the sixties will never forget the untimely deaths of musicians Jim Morrison, Jimi Hendrix and Janis Joplin, April 8th was an equally dark day for many of those who grew up in the so called “Generation X.”  Unlike those three unfortunate fatal overdoses, the death of Kurt Cobain was perhaps even more tragic because it appeared to be a suicide and thus was possibly preventable.  Why everyone asked, would a person who seemingly had it all; money, fame, a loving wife and child choose to end it all?  

There was a note found at the scene and he’d bought a shotgun recently, which was found lying on top of him with a round discharged through the roof of his mouth and lodged inside his brain.  The receipt for said shotgun was conveniently located in his pocket.  According to his wife Courtney Love, his heroin use was spiraling out of control recently and there were indeed fresh track marks found on both his arms.  His heroin “shooting kit” lay by his side containing syringes and drug paraphernalia.  It was all cut and dry or so it seemed.  This is what was reported and for the most part it was widely accepted as fact.  After all, much of his music was dark.  He was indeed addicted to heroin.  He was uncomfortable with the level of his newfound fame and Seattle historically has a very high suicide rate.  All facts.  It all seemed to fit perfectly.  Life went on for the rest of us but like so many things, sometimes it takes a while for all the facts to rise to the surface.  

As most everyone knows, Nirvana broke internationally onto the music scene in the fall of 1991 and grunge soon became a household word.  Fans flocked to this new sound coming out of the Northwest US.  Flannel shirts and Starbucks coffee were seemingly everywhere you looked.  You couldn’t turn on a radio or MTV without hearing some grunge band it seemed.  I have to say; personally I wasn’t one of those fans.  I could appreciate Cobain’s catchy songwriting ability but that was about it for me.  For a long time I thought it was a just another tragic suicide.  That changed when I learned more about this case the last couple years.

By relating what I’ve learned, hopefully it will open more eyes to what I see as an injustice.  An injustice not only in the obvious sense that I believe someone’s life was taken but also a person’s legacy tainted to that of a loser and a quitter who abandoned his wife and baby daughter when in my opinion he was nothing more than the innocent victim of a homicide.  

I hope to show there was ample motive for murder and the person with that motive had the intelligence and the resources to pull it off.  When you look at this case very closely, you will see there was a rush to judgment, inconsistencies abound and many outright lies come to light.  

Everyone has their own opinions and you may or may not share mine now or when I’m done but hopefully in the end when you take everything into account, you will at least see things just don’t add up to suicide.  Something is very wrong with this picture.  



#14    star_child

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Posted 07 July 2005 - 09:26 PM

Kurt Cobain. A legend? A genius? Messed up?

I think so. As a child, he went through hard times. He was mentally unstable, he believed no one loved him, he was full of self-hatred. He idolized people like Jimi Hendrix, and often boasted to his friends about how he would one day kill himself too. He did not know then that Jimi's death wasn't suicide.

Yes, he had fame. Fame that I don't think he wanted. Money, he had loads of that. But I don't think he wanted that either. A loving wife who supported him, and saved his life so many times. A kid that he absolutely adored. It would seem strange that someone who who 'had it all' would kill themselves. Beneath the surface, it was a completely different story.

When his body was found, his shattered skull was spread out over the Greenhouse floor. It was obvious to the forensics that he had been shot through the mouth. Would you let someone put a big shot gun into your mouth, and pull the trigger?

Kurt Cobain was so messed up, he threw away the life he longed for, for his whole life. He is now free...

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#15    Nordberg5150

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Posted 14 July 2005 - 05:00 AM

I’ll agree with one thing.  Kurt Cobain did have a pretty tough childhood.  His parents divorced when he was seven.  I’m sure many of those reading can relate to the hardship and unhappiness of having your family break apart at a young age but that hardly constitutes suicide.  Personally, I’ve never heard of this Jimi Hendrix idolization you speak of and I’d love to know who these unnamed “friends” were.  Sounds like just a myth to me. This case is full of misinformation that’s been fed to the public since it happened.  His skull wasn't shattered that wasn't even an exit wound. In fact, the first person on the scene, Gary Smith of Veca Electric, thought the body was a mannequin until he noticed blood coming out of one ear.  He was shot through the roof of his mouth.  There was very little visible trauma to the face (1.)
The shotgun was a 20 gauge which is set for a light load and is smaller and less powerful than the more popular 12 gauge.  It’s mainly used for home protection because you can theoretically shoot at an intruder without seriously endangering loved ones on the other side of walls.  This was bought however for protection, not suicide.  There had been a number of security beaches at this new house they had moved into just three months prior.  The electrician was onsite to finish wiring motion detectors when he discovered Cobain.(2.)

Kurt Cobain was not suicidal. Here in his own words just a few months prior to his death from an interview with Rolling Stone from Oct93.  “I still see stuff, descriptions of rock stars in some magazine—‘Sting, the environmental guy,’ and ‘Kurt Cobain, the whiny, complaining, neurotic, bitchy guy who hates everything, hates rock stardom, hates his life.  ‘And I’ve never been happier in my life.  I’m a much happier guy than a lot of people think I am.  I’ve been relived of so much pressure in the last year and a half,” Cobain says with a discernible relief in his voice.  “I’m still kind of mesmerized by it”.  “Just little things that no one would recognize or care about,”
More from the same interview:
RS: One of the songs that you cut from “In Utero” at the last minute was “I Hate Myself and I Want to Die.”  How literally did you mean it?
KC: As literal as a joke can be.  Nothing more than a joke and that had a bit to do with why we decided to take it off.  We knew people wouldn’t get it: they’d take it too seriously.  It was totally satirical, making fun of ourselves.  I’m thought of as this pissy, complaining, freaked-out schizophrenic who wants to kill himself all the time.  “he isn’t satisfied with anything.” And I thought it was a funny title.  I wanted it to be the title of the album for a long time but I knew the majority of people wouldn’t understand it. “
Article found at www.nirvanaclub.com

You don’t hear much about this side of Kurt Cobain.  There are a couple books out there, one of them basically written by Courtney which has tons of stories from  friends like you mention and they say he was a suicidal time bomb.  Why are they all nameless friends?  What do they have to hide if they’re telling the truth?  I tend to believe it’s because they don’t exist. It’s called tying up lose ends.

In the summer of 93, Kurt experienced what he called “a miracle”.  After years of consulting specialists about his debilitating stomach pain, he found a doctor who finally diagnosed the problem- a pinched nerve relating to his scoliosis.  Once the problem was diagnosed, it became treatable and Kurt finally rid himself of his daily agony.  From this point on, many people detected a change in Kurt’s personality;
“Kurt became a new person after that.  He stopped retreating into the dark side that everybody came to associate with him and actually seemed cheerful.  Part of it was Frances, I think, but the stomach thing was the most important.”(Dylan Carson)(3.)

Other quotes from friends:
“He and Courtney hadn’t been getting along.  The only thing keeping them together was Frances, but Kurt had been talking of a divorce and trying to get custody.”(Peter Cleary)(4.)

“Kurt wasn’t suicidal Tom.  He wasn’t suicidal.”(Rosemary Carroll friend and attorney to both Kurt and Courtney and godmother to their child)(5.)

“I never knew Kurt to be suicidal.  I just knew that he was going through a really tough time.”(Mark Lanegan, Screaming Trees vocalist and friend of Kurt)(6.)

“Kurt was facing lots of pretty heavy things but he was actually pretty upbeat.  He was prepared to deal with things facing him.”(Dylan Carson, Kurt’s best friend talking to Seattle Post Intelligencer 4/15/94)(7.)

This wasn’t a person who wanted to die.  This was a person who had survived.  Survived a tough early life, survived the daily agony of a stomach ailment and was now looking to survive and walk away from what had become a failed marriage to a psychotic, controlling monster known as Courtney Love.  It is true, he didn’t really care much for material wealth.  His wife felt much differently however.  Money was a topic they fought over more and more as 1994 approached. Courtney was infuriated Kurt wouldn’t take an offer to headline Lollapalooza that coming summer turning down a reported 9 million dollars. “She went ballistic.  She kept on screaming at him about how much money he was giving up and said if he didn’t want to do it, she’d gladly take his place”(Dylan Carson)(8.)

The truth was he wanted to get away from Courtney.  He gladly accepted a European tour that would run through Feb94.   On this tour his clean behavior was noticed by others.
“I know he was not taking drugs on that tour. He was walking around drinking Evian water and looking clean every time I saw him.”(Tony Barber Buzzcocks Bassist, Melody Maker 4/16/94)(9.)
“He seemed really clean when we were on tour.  In some ways it was a bit awkward because he wasn’t really joining in the very mild debauchery that went on.”(Pete Shelley, Buzzcocks vocalist Melody Maker 4/16/94(10.)

Days prior to this tour ending, Cobain calls his attorney Rosemary Carroll and tells her he wants a divorce from Courtney.(11.)

On March 3rd, just a few hours before she met Kurt in Rome, Courtney did an interview with Select magazine; the writer said that during this interview Love was popping Rohypnol:
There is a box of Rohypnol on the big mahogany table in the middle of Courtney Love’s London hotel room among the scattered papers and cigarette boxes.  “Look, I know this is a controlled substance” she smiles as she empties one of those fizzy stomach upset powders into a tumbler of water and washed back a Rohypnol.  “I got it from my doctor.  It’s like Valium.”(Select’s May 1994 Edition)(12.)
Later that day she and male nanny Michael DeWitt meet Kurt in Rome.  This is the first time Love and Cobain have seen each other in weeks. DeWitt is a longtime junky friend of Courtney’s, known years before Cobain.  Sometime during the night Kurt writes and or gives Courtney a note that states he's leaving her.  No one knows what happened for sure but Courtney Love is on the phone calling an ambulance at 6:30 am after finding a comatose Cobain according to the Excelsior Hotel’s statement.  This coincides with the Umberto I Polyclinic hospital which confirms he arrived by ambulance at 7:00am with a Rohypnol overdose.  One would think this would exonerate Courtney of any wrongdoing but she tells David Fricke of Rolling Stone just eight months later that she initially found Cobain at 3 or 4 in the morning and thought he was dead.(13.)
So why wait two to three hours before calling the medics? Were they trying to be sure he was dead and not just in a coma? Did she really think he was dead at that point?  It’s a glaring inconsistency.  
According to Janet Billig, the spokesperson for Nirvana’s management company who claimed she had talked to Kurt about the note that was allegedly found in Rome “Kurt insisted it was not a suicide note.  He just took all of his and Courtney’s money and was going to run away and disappear.”  This would appear to confirm what Courtney told Tom Grant on April 3rd, that in this note, Kurt says he’s leaving her.  “It’s not very nice.  It’s mean to me.  It talked about getting a divorce.”(14.)
This incident was described at the time as an accident/mistake/inadvertent overdose.  A convenient mistake which just happened when Kurt was leaving and running away.  A mistake which involved Rohypnol and champagne, substances Kurt did not use but that Courtney was in the habit of using in combination and had at her disposal.  Substances notorious for their use to incapacitate victims.  They don’t call it the “date rape” drug for nothing. It’s tasteless and dissolved in drink. Very easy to slip unknowingly into a victims drink.  Just one tablet can render a person immobile as it’s supposedly 10 times stronger than valium.  It also is broken down by the body into diazepam as does valium. This is crucial later as is the fact that there were no traces of heroin found in Kurt’s blood at the time of this overdose which occurred just one month prior to his death.
It was only after Kurt’s death that this incident was claimed to be a suicide attempt by Courtney and if it really was, why would she not have told any of his friends when they returned to Seattle?

“The thing you have to remember about all the talk of Kurt being suicidal is that all the talk only started when Courtney came out after the death and said Rome was a suicide attempt and the media picked up on all her examples of Kurt being suicidal.  That’s when all these people started saying, ‘of course he was suicidal, just listen to his music’ but that’s a bunch of crap.  Sure he was a moody guy.  That applies to a hell of a lot of people, including me but nobody ever talked about Kurt being suicidal before he died, nobody.”(Pete Cleary, friend)15

There are witnesses to support the fact Courtney was popping pills and was familiar with the method of mixing them with champagne/drink before and after Rome.  See the following: After their return from Rome, Courtney considered administering Valium to Kurt in a drink, secretly, because she claims she was concerned that Kurt was manic and need to rest. (Poppy Z Brite’s Courtney Love: The real Story)(16.)

Oh, she wanted him to rest all right!

Rosemary Carroll was very close to both Love and Cobain.  She was attorney for both of them as well as Nirvana and also the godmother to their daughter.  She obviously knew more than just a little bit about their lives.  Not only did she relate the fact to private investigator Tom Grant that Kurt had asked for a divorce prior to Rome but also that Courtney had called her in Mid March to find the “meanest, most vicious divorce lawyer she knew.”  Courtney also asked if there was any way to void the couple’s 1992 prenuptial agreement that she’d ironically made Cobain sign when they’d wed. A divorce would mean each would walk with what they earned and she wouldn’t be able to touch his millions.  Soon after returning from Rome, Kurt called Carroll and asked her to take Courtney out of his recently drafted will which was still unsigned at the time of his death. (17.)

Kurt was walking away but he never made it.

1. Love and Death p60 Halperin & Wallace
2. Love and Death p198
3. 4, 5, 6, 7 and 15–Justiceforkurt.com
8. Love and Death p67
9. and 10. Love and Death p80
11. and17 love and death p 136
12 and 14 love and death p 200
13 and 15 love and death p 202






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