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God is the one true god...


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#46    KevinM

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Posted 14 June 2005 - 10:54 PM

Actually primarily in the Old Testament you find vaguries about how many gods exist.  For example it is not I am the Lord your God and there are n other gods.  It is "I am the lord your God and you shall have no other gods before me."  ONe possible answer lies inthe belief that Judaism was originaly a henotheistic religion.  Henotheism holds that there are other gods but each tribe as its God that is the most important for them.  As such it would be wrong for a Jew to worship Ra for example becuase Ra was an Egyptian god but it would be wrong for an Egyptian to worship Yhwh becuase he was not there god.  It is worth noting Judaism is probably the least evengelical of the worlds religion with little to no interest in converting others.

In the New Testament there is a direct refference to another god(lower case intentional).  Jesus himself refered to Satan as the god of this world and the prince of this age.  I personally believe it has more to do with the materialistic nature of many people then any thing else but the statement stands.

As to the book of Enoch it's an apocryphal text that has recently become popular.  Historicaly its never been accepted as scripture by either Judaism or Christianity and is considered to be like the "gospel of thomas" a forgery not written by the figure it claims to be.  It makes several claims that are at odds with traditional Jewish or Christian thought(the idea humans become angels for example).


#47    hyperactive

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Posted 14 June 2005 - 11:19 PM

kevinm:

what else do you know of this book of enoch.  i had never heard of it prior to visiting this forum.  some of the claims made about it around here make me role on the floor in laughter, such as the dinosuaurs being a product of human-angel hybrids mating with lizards.




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#48    JayRob303

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Posted 14 June 2005 - 11:43 PM

It seems that they are all the same God, but differ in the way's that 'Mankind' has interpreted them...  Kind of like the Old Testament - God was a fierce, 'eye for an eye', type diety, New Testament - God chills out a bit...  No more 'smiting' of the first borns...
Is this because of 'Mankinds' interpretation of the events around them had changed?

Edited by JayRob303, 14 June 2005 - 11:44 PM.

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#49    KevinM

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Posted 15 June 2005 - 12:51 AM

QUOTE(hyperactive @ Jun 14 2005, 06:19 PM)
kevinm:

what else do you know of this book of enoch.  i had never heard of it prior to visiting this forum.  some of the claims made about it around here make me role on the floor in laughter, such as the dinosuaurs being a product of human-angel hybrids mating with lizards.

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Its a book that was popular around the 1st century in Juea.  Among other things it claims that the prophet Enoch transformed into the Archangel Metetron after his ascension into heaven and was given a position higher then even Michael or Gabriel.  Its major concern is the fallen angels known as the watchers and there children the nephillim laying out how they're corrupting blood turned the world evil and brought about the flood.


#50    Paranoid Android

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Posted 15 June 2005 - 01:49 AM

QUOTE(Lady @ Jun 15 2005, 06:06 AM)
Question:† I have always wanted this explained from a religious point of view (not being remotely religious myself), if God is all merciful then surely it doesn't matter how bad you are in life, you will still go to heaven?


God may be all merciful, but He is also completely just.  He cannot (and when i say cannot i mean will not) allow sin to just slide.  As any good parent, He must admonish and punish His children if they have committed a crime against Him (which is essentially what sin is).

QUOTE
And if heaven is the best place to be and only the innocent can go there, why aren't Christians killed at birth?† Would it not be a kindness to children?


The apostle Paul answers this himself.  Phillipians 1:23-25 - "...I desire to depart and be with Christ, which is better by far; but it is more necessary for you that I remain in the body."

It would be better if all Christians could die and go to heaven.  But it is more necessary to remain here.

QUOTE
Also, if one of the ten commandments says not to kill how come the Bible speaks of 'an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth'?


This was the Law according to the old covenant.  Since we are now under the new covenant instituted by Jesus, this no longer applies.  Jesus' teachings from Matthew 5:38-42 -
"You have heard that it was said, 'Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.' But I tell you, Do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also. And if someone wants to sue you and take your tunic, let him have your cloak as well. If someone forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles. Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you."

QUOTE
Further more, what about matrimony?† Surely Adam and Eve were not married before they started reproducing?


The marriage custom that we have instituted today is just that - a custom.  But marriage is still important to God.  Marriage is a heart matter between man, woman and God.  Genesis 2:24 "a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and they will become one flesh."

QUOTE
I am not raising these points in arrogance, I merely have never found anyone to answer them satisfactorily.† Please explain if you would....


I hope this helps.

Edited by BFG, 15 June 2005 - 01:51 AM.

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#51    GodsMessenger

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Posted 15 June 2005 - 01:21 PM

Quote:

"God may be all merciful, but He is also completely just. He cannot (and when i say cannot i mean will not) allow sin to just slide. As any good parent, He must admonish and punish His children if they have committed a crime against Him (which is essentially what sin is)."

Then what is the point of forgiveness and salvation. Obviously God does allow ones sin to SLIDE into the ocean of His forgetfulness.
Otherwise we would all be destined for hell because the wages of sin is DEATH and all have sinned and fall far short of the glory of God.

And God said "I desire MERCY" not sacrifice, which is what Jesus came to remiind the Jews and all of us.


I hope some day you will get to know this God of MERCY, FORGIVENESS, and LOVE, and stop seeing your heavenly father as a strict, punishing tyrant. Any good parent does not spank a baby that has pottied their diaper. The parent lovingly teaches the child how to use a toilet.  

May the love of God be revealed even more to you, in Jesus name I pray. Amen


#52    Paranoid Android

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Posted 15 June 2005 - 01:45 PM

QUOTE(GodsMessenger @ Jun 15 2005, 11:21 PM)
Then what is the point of forgiveness and salvation. Obviously God does allow ones sin to SLIDE into the ocean of His forgetfulness.
Otherwise we would all be destined for hell because the wages of sin is DEATH and all have sinned and fall far short of the glory of God.

And God said "I desire MERCY" not sacrifice, which is what Jesus came to remiind the Jews and all of us.


I hope some day you will get to know this God of MERCY, FORGIVENESS, and LOVE, and stop seeing your heavenly father as a strict, punishing tyrant. Any good parent does not spank a baby that has pottied their diaper. The parent lovingly teaches the child how to use a toilet. 

May the love of God be revealed even more to you, in Jesus name I pray. Amen

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???????????????????????????????

I believe in a God of MERCY, FORGIVENESS, and LOVE.  But I also believe in a God of JUSTICE.  And a just God does not just let people off for doing the wrong thing.  The only thing that can come from that is anarchy.  

Jesus took our sin on the cross and when our faith is put in Him, our sin is put on Him.  Hence the FORGIVENESS.  

God shows us a way back to Him in the first place, hence the MERCY.

And God sent His son to die for us, hence the LOVE.

But there must be JUSTICE, otherwise all that God has done for us is meaningless.




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#53    zandore

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Posted 15 June 2005 - 04:58 PM

QUOTE(JayRob303 @ Jun 14 2005, 07:43 PM)
It seems that they are all the same God, but differ in the way's that 'Mankind' has interpreted them...  Kind of like the Old Testament - God was a fierce, 'eye for an eye', type diety, New Testament - God chills out a bit...  No more 'smiting' of the first borns...
Is this because of 'Mankinds' interpretation of the events around them had changed?

View Post


So with this....Are you saying that God is only what we interpret him/it to be?


"A man's ethical behavior should be based effectually on sympathy,
education, and social ties; no religious basis is necessary.
Man would indeed be in a poor way if he had to be restrained by fear
of punishment and hope of reward after death."

Albert Einstein


Survey Says....


#54    101

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Posted 15 June 2005 - 05:04 PM

QUOTE(JayRob303 @ Jun 14 2005, 11:43 PM)
It seems that they are all the same God, but differ in the way's that 'Mankind' has interpreted them...  Kind of like the Old Testament - God was a fierce, 'eye for an eye', type diety, New Testament - God chills out a bit...  No more 'smiting' of the first borns...
Is this because of 'Mankinds' interpretation of the events around them had changed?

View Post



blink.gif No this is just how God had to do things then and now.

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#55    JayRob303

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Posted 15 June 2005 - 09:15 PM

QUOTE(zandore @ Jun 15 2005, 11:58 AM)
QUOTE(JayRob303 @ Jun 14 2005, 07:43 PM)
It seems that they are all the same God, but differ in the way's that 'Mankind' has interpreted them...† Kind of like the Old Testament - God was a fierce, 'eye for an eye', type diety, New Testament - God chills out a bit...† No more 'smiting' of the first borns...
Is this because of 'Mankinds' interpretation of the events around them had changed?

View Post


So with this....Are you saying that God is only what we interpret him/it to be?

View Post


I do believe that his message(s) are open to individual interpretation, which leads us to so many different branches of the same 'basic' religion.  Kind of like, 'Honor thy father and thy mother.'  What does that mean to you?  Does that mean your parents, does that mean Father as God and Mother as Mother Earth, or does it mean something else to you...

I also believe that, he is what he is...to me he is the almighty creator...to others, he is nothing but a story to maintain order/control over society...  

It is all based on each individual's interpretation of the written word...and, for that matter, which written word you are reading...

"A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky, dangerous animals and you know it."

'Even now in Heaven there are Angles carrying savage weapons.' - Saint Paul

#56    Mr Slayer

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Posted 16 June 2005 - 10:13 AM

Jesus Christ....

Actually, I would pose the question why you blindly put your trust into the Bible at all??

"The Bible says...."
So what? Do you even know who wrote the Bible? I know:
many word-of-mouth campfire stories put in together into one singe compendium of books- The Bible. Written by many, many different men over AGES, blending in actual historical happenings and people to "spice it up" and bring more trustworthiness into the whole matter. Who WOULD read the crap if it wasn't for the interesting historical descriptions??

I would trust (and let my life be guided by, apparently) the Bible as much as I would trust the "contents"-text on the back of my cornflakes package.
And I simply cannot understand people who DO let the Bible guide their lives.

God is just a spectre in your mind. Just like muslim minds. And jewish. It's all the same God... same mental sickness.
The Bible says that you're not supposed to worship an another god than the Bible's God, that there is no other God than that God. You want to know why? Because it's a matter of CONTROL. Yes, taste the word. The church, as an grand institution, wants you to belong to THEM and none else. So simple is that.

But who am I to speculate? To question? God exists, right? And The Bible is holy. I'm just a damned poor soul with lunatic thoughts.

Edited by AshKatNah, 16 June 2005 - 10:15 AM.


#57    GodsMessenger

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Posted 16 June 2005 - 10:51 AM

QUOTE(AshKatNah @ Jun 16 2005, 05:13 AM)
Jesus Christ....

Actually, I would pose the question why you blindly put your trust into the Bible at all??

"The Bible says...."
So what? Do you even know who wrote the Bible? I know:
many word-of-mouth campfire stories put in together into one singe compendium of books- The Bible. Written by many, many different men over AGES, blending in actual historical happenings and people to "spice it up" and bring more trustworthiness into the whole matter. Who WOULD read the crap if it wasn't for the interesting historical descriptions??

I would trust (and let my life be guided by, apparently) the Bible as much as I would trust the "contents"-text on the back of my cornflakes package.
And I simply cannot understand people who DO let the Bible guide their lives.

God is just a spectre in your mind. Just like muslim minds. And jewish. It's all the same God... same mental sickness.
The Bible says that you're not supposed to worship an another god than the Bible's God, that there is no other God than that God. You want to know why? Because it's a matter of CONTROL. Yes, taste the word. The church, as an grand institution, wants you to belong to THEM and none else. So simple is that.

But who am I to speculate? To question? God exists, right? And The Bible is holy. I'm just a damned poor soul with lunatic thoughts.

View Post



The bible is full of many very important CONCEPTS.

Right from the beginning it tries to deal with the creation of the universe and the earth and when you line up it's order of creation, with the theory of evolution I think they did  a pretty good job even without the extra thousands of years of knowlege we have behind us.
Then with it's metaphorical story about a tree with a fruit called "the knowledge of good and evil" it does another damn good job of describing how evil\sin came into the world. Man\Adam went against The Golden Rule, instead of doing what we know by empathetic instinct is right, he chose to do what he selfish Adam wanted to do. Where was the point when man the neanderthal beast became man the sentient being?

I earlier pontificated on the God of creation of "our perception of this physical reality of sub atomic particles" and the God of "our belief of what is right and wrong" two absolutes we as limited human beings unable

I have absolutely no interest in the so called "historical" descriptions because 1. I think most of the bible as a story was meant metaphorically.

You trust the back of a box of a food product. Try reading health books on the nutritional value of most of those food products. My doctor said don't eat anything from a box, bottle or can and no fast foods. We are all ODing on Fat Salt and Sugar. Diabetes and Heart Disease are running rampant in spite of all you food box labels. ANd don't even get me started on the conspiracy of not labelling foods as being genetically modified or not.

Yes it is a matter of control. SELF control. The bible tells us to treat other people with respect. The OT's 10 commandments tell us, Don't KILL them or STEAL from them of COMMIT ADULTERY on them or BEAR FALSE WITNESS about them and the NT teachings of Jesus tell us Love The Spirit of Truth and Righteousness and Love Others. These are hardly SPECTRES in our minds. They are very very important concepts in our minds. Try thinking about all those things next time your read the bible.



#58    JMPD1

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Posted 16 June 2005 - 11:06 AM

So then, we should keep the ten commandments, and chuck the rest.  The commandments are the ONLY useful thing that I have ever pulled out of that book.  Parts of the NT illustrate and explain the 10 C's, but the rest is either exaggerated, distorted history, or fables meant to instill fear and loathing.

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#59    mako

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Posted 16 June 2005 - 11:30 AM

I'll address several items here:
Hyperactive, the book of Enouch is a pseudoepigraph (nice word for a forgery) penned sometime in the 2nd century BCE by Maccabean scribes and recognized as such by the ancients (it was never ever considered for including in either the Jewish or Christian holy books) and by scholars (with the exception of Ashley and about 3 other people in the world) of today.  It is the ancient equivalent of science fiction.
as for a God of Mercy and Justice, here is a little tidbit:  It is a counterfeit love that is contingent upon authority punishment or reward.  In a nutshell, God had to kill Himself to appease Himself so that He would not have to roast us, His beloved creations in Hell forever.  He loves us more than we can ever comprehend, but if we donít return His affections, He will make us regret it for eternity.  Now that is AMAZING GRACE!
As for the validity of the Bible, all you have to do is look at preceding Semitic cultures myths and holy scriptures and you find where the authors of the Jewish scriptures plagiarized their material from.
As for multiple Gods, the originial Yhwhism only recognized Him as the "Head God" and he even had a wife Asherah (equivalent to Astar or Hera).  
As for the Ten Commandments, they are a pale copy (with the addition of the ones about  being the only god, keep the sabbath, etc) of Hammarabi's code which predated Moses by over 600 years.  yes.gif


Our earth is degenerate in these latter days.  There are signs that the world is speedily coming to an end.  Bribery and corruption are common,   Children no longer obey their parents.  Every man wants to write a book, and the end of the world evidently is approaching.
                    Assyrian tablet circa 2800 BCE

#60    Mr Slayer

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Posted 16 June 2005 - 12:23 PM

Mako, I'm speechless  thumbsup.gif  thumbsup.gif  thumbsup.gif





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