57 replies to this topic

[Colonel Rhuairidh]

I think that when it all comes down to it' it's the same God; Christian, Moslem, Jewish, it's all the same Creator/ call it what you like.  I don't buy into the idea of having to choose (or be indoctrinated into) one particular version of one particular faith, so i prefer not to get involved in any one organised religion.

[green_dude777]

"dualistic thought is the greatest of all idiocies!"

That was...... interesting (to put it nicely).  I believe there is a law of physics that proves you wrong.  Maybe I'm wrong, but I thought every force (action) had an equal and opposite force (reaction).  But, I'm not a degreed physicist, so I probably made that idiotic law up!!!!

But regarding the topic, I personally believe everything will be determined for each individual based on their "doings" here on earth.  If you help or hinder people.

My dualistic spiritual scale isn't "good" or "bad", as those are relevant terms.  My "scale" is being selfish or selfless, with the former being likened to "bad" and the latter being likened to "good", to put it simply.  I think eternity will be better for those that are selfless.

Just my Opinion-
Peace be upon you all (and I do mean that, especially for this particular thread )

[Paranoid Android]

Dualism.

Without God, it is based solely on the perspective of the individual.  

When we talk about a God that created us and all living things, and we look at why we were created (to be in a loving relationship with Him), then the concept of dualism is not based on perspective, but on what God deems to be good or evil.

And Christians believe that this knowledge can be found in the Bible, thus to us, dualism is not subjective, because it is God's ideals and not ours.  We may very well think one thing is good, but if God says otherwise, then He is right and we are wrong.

Until next time all,

[hyperactive]

"dualistic thought is the greatest of all idiocies!"

That was...... interesting (to put it nicely).  I believe there is a law of physics that proves you wrong.  Maybe I'm wrong, but I thought every force (action) had an equal and opposite force (reaction).  But, I'm not a degreed physicist, so I probably made that idiotic law up!!!!

But regarding the topic, I personally believe everything will be determined for each individual based on their "doings" here on earth.  If you help or hinder people.

My dualistic spiritual scale isn't "good" or "bad", as those are relevant terms.  My "scale" is being selfish or selfless, with the former being likened to "bad" and the latter being likened to "good", to put it simply.  I think eternity will be better for those that are selfless.

Just my Opinion-
Peace be upon you all (and I do mean that, especially for this particular thread )

it is a "law of physics" that is applicable only under the paramater created by man.

the rigid physical laws are a construct to simplify understanding, they are not real.

things are all relative.  "hot and cold" for example, there is no "cold", but merely less heat.  "up and down", relative to point of view: is the person going up or are the stairs going down (and either is dependant on the orientation of the observer).

accounting for the perspective of the observer is critical.

and for "gods", man has never manufactured a complete god construct.  the biblegod, which is supposed to be "all" is not, since it lacks certian attributes, thus it could NOT be THE creator.

dualistic thought is in the mind of idiots, it is just that daulistic thinking idiots can not see past their false dualistic views.  

[GodsMessenger]

...we can only have our opwn perceptions and opinions.

And there is the absolute answer.  It is all perception, opinion, and belief.

Of course, perception can be skewed, opinion can be erroneous, and belief can be misplaced.

You have your faith, but it is based on your perceptions, opinions, and desires.  As is my skepticism.

So, how can anyone claim that theirs is the ONLY path to god?  None of us really has any concrete proof of our beliefs, just our perceptions thereof.

Because Faith or Skepticism we you and I are seeking THE SAME TRUTH!

And how will we find it? I suggest that we listen to each other.

There is a story about an elephant and some blind men.
One blind man grabs the elephants tail and says "AHA! An elephant is like a rope"
The second one grabs the elephants leg and says "You are an idiot, an elephant is like a tree"
The third blind man puts his hands on the side of the elephant and says "You are both stupid morons, and elephant is like a wall."

If those blind men would listen to one another and (SINCERELY) try to see the elephant from the other persons point of view all three would know more about what an elephant is really like.


That is what I do not like about debates. Trying to prove the other person is wrong and you are right. If you are in error or wrong it makes the goal to try and prove that wrong is right.

Let's try and see hopw everyones little part of the elephant fits in to make our understanding of the elephant more complete.

[GodsMessenger]

Dualism.

Without God, it is based solely on the perspective of the individual. 

When we talk about a God that created us and all living things, and we look at why we were created (to be in a loving relationship with Him), then the concept of dualism is not based on perspective, but on what God deems to be good or evil.

And Christians believe that this knowledge can be found in the Bible, thus to us, dualism is not subjective, because it is God's ideals and not ours.  We may very well think one thing is good, but if God says otherwise, then He is right and we are wrong.

Until next time all,

But even the bible says no man can know the mind of God.

As has been pointed out, there will be christians who think they know the TRUTH and atheists who think they know the TRUTH, but those who understand that all any of us know is a perception of the truth, will not judge one another, but will try to understand WHY the other person perceives the truth the way they do and will behave accordingly.

[GodsMessenger]

"dualistic thought is the greatest of all idiocies!"

That was...... interesting (to put it nicely).  I believe there is a law of physics that proves you wrong.  Maybe I'm wrong, but I thought every force (action) had an equal and opposite force (reaction).  But, I'm not a degreed physicist, so I probably made that idiotic law up!!!!

But regarding the topic, I personally believe everything will be determined for each individual based on their "doings" here on earth.  If you help or hinder people.

My dualistic spiritual scale isn't "good" or "bad", as those are relevant terms.  My "scale" is being selfish or selfless, with the former being likened to "bad" and the latter being likened to "good", to put it simply.  I think eternity will be better for those that are selfless.

Just my Opinion-
Peace be upon you all (and I do mean that, especially for this particular thread )

it is a "law of physics" that is applicable only under the paramater created by man.

the rigid physical laws are a construct to simplify understanding, they are not real.

things are all relative.  "hot and cold" for example, there is no "cold", but merely less heat.  "up and down", relative to point of view: is the person going up or are the stairs going down (and either is dependant on the orientation of the observer).

accounting for the perspective of the observer is critical.

and for "gods", man has never manufactured a complete god construct.  the biblegod, which is supposed to be "all" is not, since it lacks certian attributes, thus it could NOT be THE creator.

dualistic thought is in the mind of idiots, it is just that daulistic thinking idiots can not see past their false dualistic views.  

Just out of curiosity do you think idiots might have dyslexia occasionally or make typo's and whatb is your obsession with the word idiot anyway? I think it is a very disrespectful way to refer to people and or their THINKING!

[hyperactive]

As has been pointed out, there will be christians who think they know the TRUTH and atheists who think they know the TRUTH, but those who understand that all any of us know is a perception of the truth, will not judge one another, but will try to understand WHY the other person perceives the truth the way they do and will behave accordingly.

truth is only that which people have agreed upon.  "absolute" truth is a fleeting concept because it lasts only so long as all in agreement remain in agreement.  indeed perception is everything.  it is that common perception that people label as "truth".

dyslexia or typo's

typos.

and whatb is your obsession with the word idiot anyway? I think it is a very disrespectful way to refer to people and or their THINKING

obsessed? not at all.  it depends on what you consider to be thinking.

[Sherapy]

"The level of a societys advancement is reflected , inevitably, in the degree of  its duality thinking"  Social growth is demonstrated by unity not separation." Unity is the truth, separation is the illusion,  As long as we see eachother as separate units, we live in illusion, All of life on our planet  is built on separatism, based in duality."  They way I understand truth is that which unites is the  truth (Gods Truth)   when we get to caught up in illusion  by constantly comparing, constantly characterizing things  as better worse higher lower good bad etc.... that shows how far we've fallen into separatism. There is such a thing as good and evil all there is is love, So wouldn't it go a long way towards unity if we honored each others path and learned from each other  the allegoric story of The Elephant and blind guys  is beautiful, thankyou. Thankyou to everyone who is commenting on this topic I have learned alot, some really great thinkers all of us.   Don't we all think so?????????

[Kismit]

Godsmessenger,
there is a religion older than yours who's concepts were actually worked into  churches and religions with  dualist belief.

You may call it idocy if you feel the need, but I dare you to give me any dualistic concept and I will prove it cannot work with out the addition of a third component. After all, even a coin has three sides.


For instance you claim the middle is just the middle of what's up and down and I won't argue against it. That's actually my point, it is neither up or down but something entirely different.


love/hate/ respect

light /dark/shadow

Hot/ cold/warm

Young/old/middle ages

Good/evil/ and the 70% of people who can go either way

The Fathger/the son/ and the holy ghost or Mother Mary depending on your actual church.
The dualistic concept was actually a later addition to the early christian religion and was a handy, Us and Them, God and the Devil, good and evil , which was used to gain members in a time less enlightened than today.

Edited by Kismit, 17 June 2005 - 12:09 AM.

[hyperactive]

kismit, even your description is flawed.

things work on a continuum, and it is just man's way of classifying things for descriptive convenience that labels get stuck on parts of the continuum.  for the most part these labels are arbitraty and relative to the labeler.

man so much wishes to fit everything in the world into "categories" or "buckets" but the real world does not work that way.

as we discussed in a prior thread, many of these constructs do not even exist outside of the mind.  however, it is a common error of man to think that just becuase it is in his head, it must be outside his head.  there is no "good" or "evil" outside of thought, and even in thought they are the same thing, not separate opposing forces as dualistic thought would claim.

[Kismit]

Well yes Hyperactive, and no. At least in my opinion. When discussing God you are describing what is basicaly the begining and the end or all of the mysterious bits in between.

For God to have been the creator or the begining then it must have been something like a chemical reaction. When two elements meet they create a  new substance, different to each original element. This is by far the largest and most convincing argument that god could not exsist as a single element to himself, you just cant make anything out of nothing or even just one basic element.

I'm not talking about the grey areas (or human constructs as you call them) as something measurable in actual mathematical terms but  as something which also has to be considered. A third part to any equation.  we can agree that, dualism doesn't work.

Edited by Kismit, 17 June 2005 - 09:17 AM.

[GodsMessenger]

As has been pointed out, there will be christians who think they know the TRUTH and atheists who think they know the TRUTH, but those who understand that all any of us know is a perception of the truth, will not judge one another, but will try to understand WHY the other person perceives the truth the way they do and will behave accordingly.

truth is only that which people have agreed upon.  "absolute" truth is a fleeting concept because it lasts only so long as all in agreement remain in agreement.  indeed perception is everything.  it is that common perception that people label as "truth".

[COLOR=blue]Just because people agree on something does not make it  "true" If you and I agree that 2+3=4 ---that is not the truth because 2+3=5, and we are talking about the concepts here not the definition of the words.

dyslexia or typo's

typos.

and whatb is your obsession with the word idiot anyway? I think it is a very disrespectful way to refer to people and or their THINKING

obsessed? not at all.  it depends on what you consider to be thinking.

[COLOR=green]We are not talking about thinking we are talking about communicating and relating to one another on a verbal level. The words we use have meanings that we have generally agreed upon. Unless you clarify your meaning, the word idiot, is going to be taken as an insult. Is that your intent? To belittle the other person by inferring that he/she thinks like an idiot?

[GodsMessenger]

"The level of a societys advancement is reflected , inevitably, in the degree of  its duality thinking"  Social growth is demonstrated by unity not separation." Unity is the truth, separation is the illusion,  As long as we see eachother as separate units, we live in illusion, All of life on our planet  is built on separatism, based in duality."  They way I understand truth is that which unites is the  truth (Gods Truth)   when we get to caught up in illusion  by constantly comparing, constantly characterizing things  as better worse higher lower good bad etc.... that shows how far we've fallen into separatism. There is such a thing as good and evil all there is is love, So wouldn't it go a long way towards unity if we honored each others path and learned from each other  the allegoric story of The Elephant and blind guys  is beautiful, thankyou. Thankyou to everyone who is commenting on this topic I have learned alot, some really great thinkers all of us.   Don't we all think so?????????

Your message is well worth reading again. It is very deep because it is so difficult to see through the illusion. Even though I understand what you are saying I still feel the seperation when I see people harming one another.
We often do not feellike we are one.

Even within my own mind I am often at odds with myself.  I may be one person and yet I have thos feeling of inner seperation.


Read the book of Romans to see how Paul discribes it especially I think it is Romans chapter 7

   21So I find this law at work: When I want to do good, evil is right there with me. 22For in my inner being I delight in God's law; 23but I see another law at work in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within my members. 24What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? 25Thanks be to God—through Jesus Christ our Lord!

[GodsMessenger]

Godsmessenger,
there is a religion older than yours who's concepts were actually worked into  churches and religions with  dualist belief.

You may call it idocy if you feel the need, but I dare you to give me any dualistic concept and I will prove it cannot work with out the addition of a third component. After all, even a coin has three sides.


For instance you claim the middle is just the middle of what's up and down and I won't argue against it. That's actually my point, it is neither up or down but something entirely different.


love/hate/ respect

light /dark/shadow

Hot/ cold/warm

Young/old/middle ages

Good/evil/ and the 70% of people who can go either way

The Fathger/the son/ and the holy ghost or Mother Mary depending on your actual church.
The dualistic concept was actually a later addition to the early christian religion and was a handy, Us and Them, God and the Devil, good and evil , which was used to gain members in a time less enlightened than today.

Please reread my messages I believe you have taken them out of context.

Also I do not believe in any "religions". But I do believe in God and having a relationship with Him.