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Jesus, son of God?


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#1    Mr Slayer

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Posted 19 June 2005 - 12:58 PM

Nah.
I don't think so. You see, in my opinion, at the time Jesus roamed the land there were plenty of religions, sects, cults, beliefs and gods.

With a reservation of sounding completely stupid, I would think the Monty Python Crew's version (Life of Brian) "of what happened", is more accurate than most people would allow themselves to believe.

I believe the Christian cult was one of many, many...they used Jesus'  kind preachings in their own propaganda; a very nice management move.
They eradicated all competition, forged existing (and pretty obvious to any sane person) teachings and implemented them into "GODS commandments", laying their hands and totally claiming the goodness in what they preached.

(The fact that the commandmends are implying "thou shall NOT" more than "thou shall" shows the sadly threatening way of the religion).

That Christianity survived so long, and that they'd gone so far, is really hard to explain...
I think it could have something to do with emperor Nero, who proclaimed Christianity the new National religion in the early days AD...

Jesus' miracles are hard to prove. They are surely tales told later by his followers to make the religious techings more...divine. Together with a mixture of (actual) historical happenings in the Bible, they all make the Word of God look more genuine.

So, Jesus is not son of God. He is a mortal man, no more a God than you and me. He was used in propaganda (of control by fear... yes actually) created by men and written down by many more different men over ages in the book called Bible.

This is how I see things, but surely, people will not agree at all.  

This is how I see the situation of things....


#2    GodsMessenger

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Posted 19 June 2005 - 02:32 PM

QUOTE(AshKatNah @ Jun 19 2005, 07:58 AM)
Nah.
I don't think so. You see, in my opinion, at the time Jesus roamed the land there were plenty of religions, sects, cults, beliefs and gods.

With a reservation of sounding completely stupid, I would think the Monty Python Crew's version (Life of Brian) "of what happened", is more accurate than most people would allow themselves to believe.

I believe the Christian cult was one of many, many...they used Jesus'  kind preachings in their own propaganda; a very nice management move.
They eradicated all competition, forged existing (and pretty obvious to any sane person) teachings and implemented them into "GODS commandments", laying their hands and totally claiming the goodness in what they preached.

(The fact that the commandmends are implying "thou shall NOT" more than "thou shall" shows the sadly threatening way of the religion).

That Christianity survived so long, and that they'd gone so far, is really hard to explain...
I think it could have something to do with emperor Nero, who proclaimed Christianity the new National religion in the early days AD...

Jesus' miracles are hard to prove. They are surely tales told later by his followers to make the religious techings more...divine. Together with a mixture of (actual) historical happenings in the Bible, they all make the Word of God look more genuine.

So, Jesus is not son of God. He is a mortal man, no more a God than you and me. He was used in propaganda (of control by fear... yes actually) created by men and written down by many more different men over ages in the book called Bible.

This is how I see things, but surely, people will not agree at all. 

This is how I see the situation of things....

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What us a "son of God". A son of God is someone who obeys his heavenly Father, and thatis what Jesus did. And you can do it and I can do it and if we do, then we also become sons of God.

The character Jesus of the New Testament story, was such a person.


#3    panther10758

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Posted 19 June 2005 - 02:48 PM

QUOTE(AshKatNah @ Jun 19 2005, 12:58 PM)
Nah.
I don't think so. You see, in my opinion, at the time Jesus roamed the land there were plenty of religions, sects, cults, beliefs and gods.

With a reservation of sounding completely stupid, I would think the Monty Python Crew's version (Life of Brian) "of what happened", is more accurate than most people would allow themselves to believe.

I believe the Christian cult was one of many, many...they used Jesus'  kind preachings in their own propaganda; a very nice management move.
They eradicated all competition, forged existing (and pretty obvious to any sane person) teachings and implemented them into "GODS commandments", laying their hands and totally claiming the goodness in what they preached.

(The fact that the commandmends are implying "thou shall NOT" more than "thou shall" shows the sadly threatening way of the religion).

That Christianity survived so long, and that they'd gone so far, is really hard to explain...
I think it could have something to do with emperor Nero, who proclaimed Christianity the new National religion in the early days AD...

Jesus' miracles are hard to prove. They are surely tales told later by his followers to make the religious techings more...divine. Together with a mixture of (actual) historical happenings in the Bible, they all make the Word of God look more genuine.

So, Jesus is not son of God. He is a mortal man, no more a God than you and me. He was used in propaganda (of control by fear... yes actually) created by men and written down by many more different men over ages in the book called Bible.

This is how I see things, but surely, people will not agree at all. 

This is how I see the situation of things....

View Post



I certainly respect your view but you do little to prove your theory.



#4    Lamont Cranston

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Posted 19 June 2005 - 02:57 PM

I can't see that he is, too much was stolen from older religions: Virgin Birth, Shepherds Adulation, Visit of the Wise Men, Slaughter of the Innocents, Baptism, Crucifixion, Resurrection, Descent into Hell, Ascent into Heavan, the Trinity, The Holy Ghost!  All done by Mithra, Osiris, Krishna, Erakles, etc long before Jesus supposedly lived (many predating Judaism).  The evil perpetrated by the Christian religion through out the past 1700 years is staggering and no God with any cajones would allow his name to be attached to such!

"In those parts of the world where learning and science has prevailed, miracles ceased; but in those parts that are barbarous and ignorant, miracles are still in vogue." - Ethan Allen

#5    panther10758

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Posted 19 June 2005 - 03:02 PM

QUOTE
The evil perpetrated by the Christian religion through out the past 1700 years is staggering and no God with any cajones would allow his name to be attached to such!


Jesus was NOT Christian he was Jewish! I also wonder if God has cajones lol. God gave us free will and allows us to use it. Jesus too had free will and chose to follow God's will even to his death! Jesus was our savior and example. Our free will is both our blessing and our curse!


#6    Lamont Cranston

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Posted 19 June 2005 - 03:16 PM

QUOTE
Jesus was NOT Christian he was Jewish!

Don't recall saying he was a Christian (especially since this title was not used until late 2nd century AD).
QUOTE
Jesus was our savior and example

Oh, we are supposed to throw a hissyfit when a fruit tree doesn't produce fruit out of season, we are supposed to ignore people because they aren't Jewish (Samarian Woman, Roman Centurion) until forced to, we are supposed to cause rifts between brothers and fathers and sons - woooo what an example!  As usual, you ignored addressing the part that you couldn't justify, and only gave us a small part of the posting!  How can a religion that stole so much from older religions be the "Truth and the Way"?  Stealing is stealing!

Edited by Lamont Cranston, 19 June 2005 - 03:18 PM.

"In those parts of the world where learning and science has prevailed, miracles ceased; but in those parts that are barbarous and ignorant, miracles are still in vogue." - Ethan Allen

#7    GodsMessenger

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Posted 19 June 2005 - 03:27 PM

QUOTE(Lamont Cranston @ Jun 19 2005, 09:57 AM)
I can't see that he is, too much was stolen from older religions: Virgin Birth, Shepherds Adulation, Visit of the Wise Men, Slaughter of the Innocents, Baptism, Crucifixion, Resurrection, Descent into Hell, Ascent into Heavan, the Trinity, The Holy Ghost!  All done by Mithra, Osiris, Krishna, Erakles, etc long before Jesus supposedly lived (many predating Judaism).  The evil perpetrated by the Christian religion through out the past 1700 years is staggering and no God with any cajones would allow his name to be attached to such!

View Post



LOL of course He would and has since mankind first conceived of Him.

But Jesus did say THIS to those who would use His name for such treachery and deceit.
  
Matthew 7:21-23 (New International Version)
New International Version (NIV)
Copyright 1973, 1978, 1984 by International Bible Society



    21"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' 23Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'



#8    GodsMessenger

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Posted 19 June 2005 - 03:35 PM

QUOTE(Lamont Cranston @ Jun 19 2005, 10:16 AM)
QUOTE
Jesus was NOT Christian he was Jewish!

Don't recall saying he was a Christian (especially since this title was not used until late 2nd century AD).
QUOTE
Jesus was our savior and example

Oh, we are supposed to throw a hissyfit when a fruit tree doesn't produce fruit out of season, we are supposed to ignore people because they aren't Jewish (Samarian Woman, Roman Centurion) until forced to, we are supposed to cause rifts between brothers and fathers and sons - woooo what an example!  As usual, you ignored addressing the part that you couldn't justify, and only gave us a small part of the posting!  How can a religion that stole so much from older religions be the "Truth and the Way"?  Stealing is stealing!

View Post


No we are suppose to throw a hissy fit when a Teacher uses a tree by the side of the road for an object lesson to show His students what happens to a tree that does not bear fruit. How it becomes useless. If you don't lose it you lose it. Muscles atrophy. We must try to understand the concepts behind the stories.

I remember Jesus talking to the woman at the well and saving the life of the woman caught in adultery, and I wont even mention Mary Magdelen(sp?) and you dare question Jesus attitude when it comes to women.
And certainly there will be a rift between the Ku Klux Klan father and his son when Jesus convinces that son to love Blacks and Jews and Pagans as well as WASP's.

WOOOO INDEED WHAT AN EXAMPLE! Thank you Jesus !



#9    Lamont Cranston

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Posted 19 June 2005 - 03:38 PM

QUOTE
LOL of course He would and has since mankind first conceived of Him.

so you admit that mankind made Jeus up!
QUOTE
But Jesus did say THIS to those who would use His name for such treachery and deceit.

How do you know what he said?  With the exception of Paul's letters (which never quote Jesus at all) none of the other books of the NT were written within a century of his (supposed) death and none were written by witnesses (the names of the authors were finally assigned in 189 AD and they book were mentioned in 150 AD), so there is no way of knowing what he actually said and what was added by the authors and subsequent scribes and editors!  Give secular evidence of what he said and even his existence!  Show where it says that he was giving an object lesson and not throwing a hissy fit.  What about the Centurion, we know Jesus stand on women, he was after all a Jew, obeying Jewish laws - Jews held women to be chattle just like cattle!  Hee hee, good try, but you forgot about the directive to buy a sword, even if it meant selling your coat!  As I said, some example!

Edited by Lamont Cranston, 19 June 2005 - 03:43 PM.

"In those parts of the world where learning and science has prevailed, miracles ceased; but in those parts that are barbarous and ignorant, miracles are still in vogue." - Ethan Allen

#10    GodsMessenger

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Posted 19 June 2005 - 03:53 PM

QUOTE(Lamont Cranston @ Jun 19 2005, 10:38 AM)
QUOTE
LOL of course He would and has since mankind first conceived of Him.

so you admit that mankind made Jeus up!
QUOTE
But Jesus did say THIS to those who would use His name for such treachery and deceit.

How do you know what he said?  With the exception of Paul's letters (which never quote Jesus at all) none of the other books of the NT were written within a century of his (supposed) death and none were written by witnesses (the names of the authors were finally assigned in 189 AD and they book were mentioned in 150 AD), so there is no way of knowing what he actually said and what was added by the authors and subsequent scribes and editors!  Give secular evidence of what he said and even his existence!  Show where it says that he was giving an object lesson and not throwing a hissy fit.  What about the Centurion, we know Jesus stand on women, he was after all a Jew, obeying Jewish laws - Jews held women to be chattle just like cattle!  Hee hee, good try, but you forgot about the directive to buy a sword, even if it meant selling your coat!  As I said, some example!

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First of all we are talking about Jesus the character known by that name in the story called The New Testament. Whether or not that character existed historically. I know he said this because it is written in the book and I have quoted chapter and verse for you.


Second The Spirit of Christ has said it to me personally in my heart. Please try to understand this conceptually not interpretting heart as the biological organ that pumps blood, but as the soul of ones mind and belief system.

34Jesus answered, "I tell you, Peter, before the rooster crows today, you will deny three times that you know me."

    35Then Jesus asked them, "When I sent you without purse, bag or sandals, did you lack anything?"
      "Nothing," they answered.

    36He said to them, "But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one. 37It is written: 'And he was numbered with the transgressors'[b]; and I tell you that this must be fulfilled in me. Yes, what is written about me is reaching its fulfillment."

    38The disciples said, "See, Lord, here are two swords."
      "That is enough," he replied.

Did you ever stop for even a millisecond to consider why they needed a sword and why only 2 would be enough?

Jesus was about to be betrayed, but he needed enough time to pray. He asked his disciples to stand guard while He did.

After Jesus had finished praying and they came to arrest Jesus Peter drew his sword and cut of the ear of the centurion. Jesus told Peter to put his sword away and Jesus touched and HEALED the ear of the centurion and went willingly to His death.

It is not surprising when people quote tiny snippets from the bible to try and discredit it. Because taken in context, those snippets are not so discredditing at all. But for those who would deliberately distort or try to hide the context of those words it is a very telling comment on their own credibility.



#11    Mr Slayer

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Posted 19 June 2005 - 03:57 PM

I certainly respect your view but you do little to prove your theory.


Er...first of all, these are my opinions, I'm not saying that things are this way. Second, it is impossible to prove something like that. But that's the sweetness of it;
people take their heavenly Father for granted. And as follows, they take everything else in that direction for granted as well. It's called a paradigm. Or a dominoeffect. Call it what you will.

The forgery of our history is not a modern thing (="the history is written by the victorious"), but started long ago. Without questioning it, even the slightest, the masses will continue to Trust and Obey. The ones that physically and mentally control us feed on our mistrust toward each other.

And-
How do I know that there is no God...? I don't, but equally, how do you prove his existence? The Bible? "The Bible says so..."

Come on....


#12    Paranoid Android

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Posted 19 June 2005 - 04:10 PM

At the very least, this should be moved to the Spirituality vs. Skepticism board.  That's if a MOD doesn't decide to just close it.

That said, you are entitled to your opinion, but to me, Jesus was (is) the Son of God.  He was (is) one part of the trinity.  He died for our sins.  He is the only way to God.

I can't say more without going against the rules of this forum.  

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#13    Mr Slayer

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Posted 19 June 2005 - 05:25 PM

What..? I really don't mind if they move it. But, BFG, why would they close it down?

And what do you mean by "you can't say more without going against the rules of this forum"? I'm really interested..!

"He IS son of God" "He died for our sins?"? How do you know that?

See, that was a part of my point here actually. Some people are so SURE about the current worldview. They live in this paradigm, and cannot question it at all.

Most important of all, they are ready to "break the rules", apparently... to show how shocked and angry they are towards those who "dare" to question something as inbred into our minds as God.



#14    panther10758

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Posted 19 June 2005 - 06:06 PM

What..? I really don't mind if they move it. But, BFG, why would they close it down?
( no call for it yet)
And what do you mean by "you can't say more without going against the rules of this forum"? I'm really interested..!

"He IS son of God" "He died for our sins?"? How do you know that? (How do you know he is not? Neither side can provide proof its a matter of faith)

See, that was a part of my point here actually. Some people are so SURE about the current worldview. They live in this paradigm, and cannot question it at all. (World view! keywords here)

Most important of all, they are ready to "break the rules", apparently... to show how shocked and angry they are towards those who "dare" to question something as inbred into our minds as God.





#15    Mr Slayer

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Posted 19 June 2005 - 06:15 PM

Hey Panther!

Listen BFG, I REALLY would like to hear what you REALLY wanted to say. Because, all I can figure out from your last post is some kind of a threat.

But I might read it wrong.





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