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Fallen angels


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#16    Ashley-Star*Child

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Posted 21 July 2005 - 12:06 PM

Oh dear we have a NT reader who knows jack about the OT. Do some research the OT you know the HEBREW SIDE, like Jesus (Yeshua to be exact) was HEBREW Himself.

And just to correct you the majority of the NT is in Greek, not Aramaic and the 'accepted timeline' could altogether be wrong to begin with.

Bible Bahser in disguise? Now you have given me a good laugh, thank you. laugh.gif


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#17    deathinabottle

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Posted 29 October 2005 - 07:57 AM

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i guess i'm wondering if any of them were seraphs or archangels or the wheel ones or the ones that look like animals(not sure of their name)  i know that 1/3 fell, but i was interested in knowing if their rank/ class or whatever was defined at all



there is only one archangel, that is of course micheal
there is not one scripture that says n e different or any scripture that doesnt referre to micheal as an archangel and always referrs to gabriel as simply an angel wich is the lowest of them all, not that they arent still very powerful just of them being from God anyways back to my point it would be impossible for there to be n e fallen archangels because there is only one and his name is Micheal


#18    draconic chronicler

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Posted 31 October 2005 - 01:09 PM

Now that it is completley understood that Lucifer never existed, and is only a Christian  Roman transaltor's mistake,  we have no evidence that Satan is a "Cherub", although his description in Revelation and other clues suggest he is a "draconic" heavenly creature, either Seraphim or Cherubim.

But with the dismissal of the Lucifer passage, we must also dismiss the nonsensical, so-called "war in heaven".    There was never a war or rebellion, per se, just a few horny angels that wanted to have sex with human women.

The "War in Heaven" was created by the post exile Jews and expanded upon by the early Christians because their  faiths departed from a pure monotheism and they adopted pagan-dualistic theologies taken directly from Persian Zorastrianism.   Ahura binds his evil dragon with his magic girdle and throws him into the abyss for 1000 years, and Michael uses a chain on his evil dragon.  Other than that, it is just a direct rip-off of Zorastrian fairy tales.  Revelation is a false prophecy.  Not only is it full of myths stolen from the popular pagan relgions of the day, but it didn't even happen when it was supposed to.  It was to occur when some of Jesus' deiciples were still living, John even used the words "very soon", and now its been almost 2000 years and we are still waiting.

To even claim angels revolted against God and caused so much misery to mankind in the form of nonsensical demons copied from Greek mythology is a complete contradiction of the original Old Testament scriptures, and to believe such things, must be regarded as the greatest blasphemies against an omnipotent God.

Edited by draconic chronicler, 31 October 2005 - 01:22 PM.


#19    Ashley-Star*Child

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Posted 01 November 2005 - 10:50 AM

Who exactly, do you think you are Draconic? You seem to believe, in much the same way as you believe in your own ideas, that yourf opinion states what everyone else believes. NEWSFLAAAAASH it doesn't. No one really gives a crap what book you are or are not bringing out to clutter bookstores, you opinion is your opinion and nothing further. In short, everyone is entitled to their beliefs and opinions, and you most definantly do NOT get the last say on that.

I'll also add that your posts are without credit because the only source you have is YOURSELF, and that means jack to everyone else.

Edited by Ashley-Star*Child, 01 November 2005 - 10:52 AM.


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#20    draconic chronicler

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Posted 01 November 2005 - 12:37 PM

Ashley, when things are so completely obvious, and understood by serious bible researchers, (such as Christianities imitation of Zorastrian theology as you are probably referring to now), it is pointless to constantly quote sources, but be assured they will all be listed in the book's footnotes.

Virtually everything I have said in these respects have already been said by many other, very well informed, and long-time  UM posters.

Edited by draconic chronicler, 01 November 2005 - 12:41 PM.


#21    seanph

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Posted 01 November 2005 - 04:06 PM

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But with the dismissal of the Lucifer passage, we must also dismiss the nonsensical, so-called "war in heaven". There was never a war or rebellion, per se, just a few horny angels that wanted to have sex with human women.

The "War in Heaven" was created by the post exile Jews and expanded upon by the early Christians because their faiths departed from a pure monotheism and they adopted pagan-dualistic theologies taken directly from Persian Zorastrianism.


DC is spot on!  The war in heaven is complete nonsense.  It is, indeed, a terrible mistranslation of the Lucifer passage.  You will learn this in any college classroom or theological seminary.  The term Lucifer means "morning star" and is in reference to a King of Babylon.

"Lucifer" and the Hebrew Bible

"Lucifer" is used by Jerome in the Vulgate (4th century) to translate into Latin Isaiah 14:12-14, where the Hebrew text refers to heilel ben-shachar (???? ?? ??? in Hebrew). Heilel signifies the planet Venus, and ben-shachar means "the brilliant one, son of the morning", to whose mythical fate that of the King of Babylon is compared in the prophetic vision. The Jewish Encyclopedia reports that "it is obvious that the prophet in attributing to the Babylonian king boastful pride, followed by a fall, borrowed the idea from a popular legend connected with the morning star". Isaiah 14 starts out discussing the King of Babylon, and the reference "morning star, son of the dawn" originally applied specifically to that king's pride:

14:4 And you shall bear this parable against the king of Babylon, and you shall say, "How has the dominator ceased, has ceased the haughty one!

14:10 All of them shall speak up and say to you, 'Have you too become weak like us? Have you become like us?'

14:11 Your pride has been lowered into Gehinnom, the stirring of your psalteries. Maggots are spread under you, and worms cover you.

14:12 How have you fallen from heaven, Lucifer, the morning star? You have been cut down to earth, You who cast lots on nations. (Isaiah, Judaica Press Tanach) ...

... It is noteworthy that the Old Testament itself does not at any point actually mention the rebellion and fall of Satan directly. This non-Scriptural belief assembled from interpretations of different passages, would fall under the heading Christian mythology...

In the Vulgate, the word lucifer is used elsewhere: it describes the Morning Star (the planet Venus), the "light of the morning" (Job 11:17); the "signs of the zodiac" (Job 38:32) and "the aurora" (Psalm 109:3). In the New Testament, "Jesus Christ" (in II Peter 1:19) is associated with the "morning star".

Not all references in the New Testament to the morning star refer to Lucifer, however; in Revelation:

Rev 2:28 And I will give him the morning star.

Rev 22:16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, [and] the bright and morning star.

In the Eastern Empire, where Greek was the language, "morning star" (heosphorus) retained these earlier connotations. When Liutprand, bishop of Cremona, attended the Byzantine Emperor Nicephorus II in 968, he reported to his master Otto I the greeting sung to the emperor arriving in Hagia Sophia:

"Behold the morning star approaches, Eos rises; he reflects in his glances the rays of the sun— he the pale death of the Saracens, Nicephorus the ruler." [1]--Dennis Bratcher, "'Lucifer' in Isaiah 14:12-17: Translation and Ideology", "Jewish Encyclopedia: Lucifer", and "Vita Adae et Evae: Text from R.H. Charles, The Apocrypha and Pseudepigrapha of the Old Testament (Oxford)"


So, the Isaiah passage does not connect, either historically or theologically, with the New Testament passages about the devil or the satan. By listening to the Old Testament passage on its own terms within its own context, we discover that Lucifer is not an Old Testament name for the devil or the satan. The passage in Isaiah 14:12-17 is directed at the downfall of the arrogant Babylonian rulers who took Israel into exile. By beginning with the New Testament, by making assumptions not supported by a closer examination of Scripture itself, and by using external theological categories as a lens through which to read Scripture, we may end up badly misreading Isaiah.--Dennis Bratcher, "'Lucifer' in Isaiah 14:12-17: Translation and Ideology

The whole war in heaven--god vs. satan--is derived from ancient combat myths and Persian dualism (Zoroastrianism)  These concepts heavily influenced Hebrew scribes who incorporated them into the Hebrew Bible--the bulk of which was written down during the Babylonian exile.  Again, this is Religion 101.

Read "The River of God" by Gregory Riley, professor of NT at the Claremont School of Theology, for a wonderful discussion on this topic.  Outstanding read.

Kindly,

Sean

Edited by seanph, 01 November 2005 - 04:45 PM.

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#22    ShaunZero

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Posted 02 November 2005 - 05:35 AM

Ashley, where is your proof that their are more than one heaven? Or levels of heaven or whatever... I find this kind of odd. O_o.

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#23    Ciraxis

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Posted 02 November 2005 - 08:03 PM

who brought this thread back to life?

anyways, i was researching dragons, and i believe that if they exsist(ed) then they are a spirtitual being, not a physical one.  most of the accounts of these beings are so much alike, but we have no evidence.  

i believe similar things in regards to aliens, that they are not in fact aliens, but something much more sinister.  

I'd love to talk about this stuff, but can we please stop the fighting?  its a waste of time.  i'd like to seriously discuss these things, sans bickering, but if it continues i'll ask this thread be closed.


#24    Ashley-Star*Child

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Posted 03 November 2005 - 01:14 AM

I can't think of a single 'Biblical scholar' who agrees with you DC. Especially on your dragon myths. What I find so completely obvious is that you are trying to sell something you have absolutely no idea about. Shall we battle? That will give you a war to talk about. Here's a hint sweetness, that war in Heaven is directly linked to those 'horny angels' you so graciously quoted them as. thumbsup.gif

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Ashley, where is your proof that their are more than one heaven? Or levels of heaven or whatever... I find this kind of odd. O_o.


Enoch, and the entire Judaic religion which pre-dates Christianity. thumbsup.gif


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i believe similar things in regards to aliens, that they are not in fact aliens, but something much more sinister.


I can agree on that. In fact there are texts o back it up. 'Aliens' are nothing new.

DC is nowhere near 'spot on' and shall I just remind certain people that multiple screennames are prohibited on this site. thumbsup.gif



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#25    the14u2cee

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Posted 03 November 2005 - 02:02 AM

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I can't think of a single 'Biblical scholar' who agrees with you DC. Especially on your dragon myths. What I find so completely obvious is that you are trying to sell something you have absolutely no idea about. Shall we battle? That will give you a war to talk about. Here's a hint sweetness, that war in Heaven is directly linked to those 'horny angels' you so graciously quoted them as. thumbsup.gif
Enoch, and the entire Judaic religion which pre-dates Christianity. thumbsup.gif
I can agree on that. In fact there are texts o back it up. 'Aliens' are nothing new.

DC is nowhere near 'spot on' and shall I just remind certain people that multiple screennames are prohibited on this site. thumbsup.gif

w00t.gif LOL..............I really hate to impose on what is a he said she said coversation, the only truth about when , where and how we came to be will be answered 1 way, and until then im sure we can, well i know of a couple thousand things i would rather do then to argue with a DRAGON in waiting (to be published) and get all bothered about some fight in heaven ?And by the way Ash.... That book  with  whats his name in it...Enoch, its rather interesting, just wish i could been there to read them scrolls, im sure there is some other stuff in them that we don't even know about yet.. grin2.gif


#26    Ashley-Star*Child

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Posted 03 November 2005 - 02:24 AM

If you want I can direct you where to find the relevant books the14. There's heaps of stuff that isn't public knowledge...

Edited by Ashley-Star*Child, 03 November 2005 - 02:25 AM.


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#27    antiaging

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Posted 03 November 2005 - 08:48 PM

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There were two accounts of a mass fall of angels. One was with the original rebellion of satan when he refused (and the angels under him subsequently refused) to bow down to Adam, as satan claimed Adam should bow down to him as he was around first. He then proceeded to try and exalt his throne, and was kicked out with the angels under his command. He was the highest of all angels originally. He and the angels that fell with him became the first accusing angels with satan (or satanail) as prince over them. The angels from that rebellion were bound in the 2nd Heaven.

Those same angels (satan and his rebellion were allowed, at that time, to tempt/test/accuse their own kind as well as humans) that rebelled tempted several (200) of the then 'Holy Watchers' or Irin Qaddism, to fall and marry women. They obtained, through the archangel Michael an oath to fall based on the Creation of the world 'and by this oath....' etc (this is why taking an oath, any oath became forbidden). These two hundred angels did fall, were punished, and were bound in the 5th Heaven. Three however, gieven full blame for the other angels deeds (and later for a 'scapegoat' of man's deeds, read Exodus) where bound hand and foot and blindfolded in the wilderness for a period of 7000 years. There then was a division between the Irin Qaddism or Holy Watchers (there were still 7 rows of them left after the fall) of which they are all identical and 'twin' judgement angels. The fallen lot took on many forms however. The fallen then became known just as 'the Watchers' or the Grigori. These angels were NOT the originally fallen angels of the rebellion, nor 'satan's angels', they were Holy angels tempted by the rebellion.

As a result of this the 'War in Heaven' noted in Revelation where the archangel Michael kicked out the dragon who was accusing THEIR (angels) bretherin (other angels) night and day before the Lord as a result of this dragon's (satan) accusations againts them and causing many angels to fall. Satan then was demoted to accusing angel solely of humans, and God then tested His own angels.

There was also at this time an angel fall (Azza, also said to be one of the angels marry women) because he objected to the high rank given Enoch when he transformed into the angel Metatron. So God had him suspended between Heaven and Earth (mid space) one eye open one eye shut so he can he his impending crash to Earth.

So, yes, there are many accounts of angels falling. And to recap, the 'class' which is actually termed 'rank' of the angels was:

Satan: Cherubim, originally highest of all angels, as God had favored him and hiven him the most power)
Angels of Enoch: Irin Qaddism/Holy Watchers, after their fall, they were termed just 'Watchers' or more specifically the Grigori/Egrigori.

However, that being said, fallen angels DO retain their rank (even the watchers were still watchers, but satan, according to Jubilees, claimed a percentage of them to become accusing angels. Part of the Irin and Qaddism is that one angel takes your defense, and the other your prosecution on your judgement at death) and their jobs. They also, even when fallen remain loyal to God, even satan. His beef is with humanity, he's not stupid enough to fight God, and God Himself said that (afetr satan's fall, and the fall of the angls) that 'There is NO ONE at war with Me'. They also only fall for a set period of time. The angels of Enoch fell for 9 days (9000 years, one 'day' in Heaven is 1000 years on Earth, just as the 7 'days' of Creation were 7000 years on Earth), 7000 of them with the 3 given full blame on the Earth, 2000 in their hell, Pluto.



Colossians 2:18   Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind,
Colossians 2:19   And not holding the Head, from which all the body by joints and bands having nourishment ministered, and knit together, increaseth with the increase of God.




#28    the14u2cee

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Posted 03 November 2005 - 11:24 PM

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If you want I can direct you where to find the relevant books the14. There's heaps of stuff that isn't public knowledge...

             original.gif You can pm me an leave a couple Title's of some books there... thumbsup.gif


#29    draconic chronicler

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Posted 04 November 2005 - 01:41 AM

Ciraxis, neither the biblical dragons or angels can be realistically classified as "spirit creatures".  This idea came about as christianity became less Judaic in nature and more Pagan Greek with its invisible spirits and demons.  The real angels of the old Testament ate food, and had normal corporeal bodies without wings.  The winged creatures of the bible are "dragons", or to use the hebrew term, Seraphim, which means fiery flying serpents.  There are several Biblical and other early Christian and Jewish texts that refer to these "dragons" devouring humans, which indicate they have real physical bodies, but like the humanoid angels, are essentially "immortal" creatures, which would account for them being believed in by cultures all around the world, despite no fossil evidence of them ever being found.

Ashley, Sean agreed with me, because unlike you, he is knowledgeable Biblical scholar.  I would hope that he asks that you be banned from this website because of your lies claiming that "I made him up" as a second screen name.  I believe the moderators can prove you are a liar in this instance.  I seem to recall you were previously banned or at least warned for similar attacks against other people.

I was not even debating with you, when you initiated your petty attacks and slander.

As Sean said, the things I stated are common knowledge in any seminary or compariative religion class.  The fact that you were so taken aback by them is indicative of how little you really know about these matters.

As for my dragon theories, many people far more knowledgable than you concerning Biblical studies have already read my manuscript and could find no inaccuracies in my use of Biblical scriptures to document my findings.

You, on the otherhand, have created a whole mythology based on a biblical character which is nothing more than a translator' mistake, and which modern Biblical scholarship proves never even existed!

Edited by draconic chronicler, 04 November 2005 - 01:45 AM.


#30    Ciraxis

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Posted 04 November 2005 - 03:47 PM

hey dragonic,  could you direct me to some readings?  and ashley could you give me some things to read as well?  dragonic, what you stated is a problem i had with my belief in dragons, they seemed so physical.  do you think they still exist?





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