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Scientology- A Valid Religion?


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#1    Lottie

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Posted 11 July 2005 - 07:53 PM

Debate Suggestion by JohnnyBoyC

Quote from Wikipedia.Org:
QUOTE
Scientology is a system of beliefs and teachings, originally established as a secular philosophy in 1952 by author L. Ron Hubbard, and subsequently reoriented from 1953 as an "applied religious philosophy".


So the question is : "Scientology- Is it really a valid religion?"

JohnnyBoyC will be arguing that it Is a valid religion.
UnaFragger will be arguing that it Isn't a valid religion.

This is a Formal 1v1 debate.
The debate will consist of an introduction, 5 bodily posts showing countering of the opponent, good style, persuasive arguments and information relevant to the topic, and a conclusion from each participant. Remember to quote all your sources, no flaming or offensive langauage.

Also please try try to keep to the time limits of the rules which are 7 days per post.
If for any reason this is not possible during the course of the debate please let myself or disinterested know so we can work out an agreement.

Any questions, we are just a PM away.
Have fun and good luck! thumbsup.gif

Edited by Lottie, 11 July 2005 - 07:57 PM.


#2    JohnnyBoyC

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Posted 11 July 2005 - 08:51 PM

I will go first I suppose...

Introduction
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
QUOTE
(1)Scientology follows a long tradition of religious practice. Its roots lie in the deepest beliefs and aspirations of all great religions, thus encompassing a religious heritage as old and as varied as man himself.


Scientology is a religion as is Catholicism, Judaism, Buddhism, and all religions. It deserves to be treated as an equal. Not as just an isolated idea. And its purpose is to help us achieve better spiritual development. Surly not a bad idea. Yet it is called A heritisim towards other churches.

QUOTE
(2)Church spokespeople attest that Hubbard's teaching (called "technology" or "tech") has freed them from drug and alcohol addictions, depression, learning disabilities, mental disorders and other problems.


As nice as it may sound there are many critics towards Scientology. Including officials from many governments, who claim that it is, "an unscrupulous commercial organization." and "... a cult that harasses and exploits its own members" These claims are outrageous and insulting. Why? Because the idea is different. In all, I support that scientology is a valid and respectable religion.

Definition Of Religion-
QUOTE
(3)
A set of beliefs, values, and practices based on the teachings of a spiritual leader.


Scientology is a set of beliefs and practices, based on the teaching of a spiritual leader, in this case Dr. L. Ron Hubbard.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This is also my first debate. So don't criticize it.

1) www.Scientology.org
2) www.wikipedia.com
3) Meriam Webster Dictionary

Edited by JohnnyBoyC, 11 July 2005 - 08:55 PM.

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#3    UnaFragger

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Posted 12 July 2005 - 07:53 PM

Intro

As stated by the founders and practitioners of this so-called "Religion", Scientology attempts to offer answers to questions that have been plaguing mankind since it's beginnings.   In an attempt to offer proof for the things that men have known of pure faith for thousands of years, Scientology abandons this faith, which is one of the main principals that Religion holds so dearly.

QUOTE
As the twenty-first century dawns, most individuals have no real grasp of the factors governing their existence. And yet, simply stated, if they had a greater understanding of themselves and their fellows they would be able to improve conditions and thus live happier lives. This, then, is the purpose of Scientology: to enable man to improve his lot through understanding.[1]

Then, by this understanding, the sense of unknown that comes with Religion is lost.  The existance of a power so great that it is uncomprehendable is not something that can be explained using the scientific methodology that this practice employs.
QUOTE
[Scientology] supplied workable methods of application which made it possible for man to reach the ancient goal he has been striving toward for thousands of years: to know himself and, in knowing himself, to know and understand other people and, ultimately, life itself.[1]

As stated above, Scientology is a means to better oneself.  It is a practice that attempts to offer answers to the many questions that man has been trying to answer for years.  Scientology attempts to allow man to know what he is, and what he is made of.  

In doing so, the entire concept of the "spirit", another religious principal that is a necessity to religions, is blown out of the water.  The origins of Scientology don't relate to any kind of "Creation", and don't accept any "God" that is compatible with Religion.

In the coming posts, I will elaborate further on these points, and show you how Scientology is nothing more than a practice or, to accentuate what other individuals have said, even a cult.  I will prove to you that this practice can't be grouped in the same category as Religion.  There may be millions of practitioners worldwide, but that doesn't at all make it a Religion.

---
This is also my first debate, so take it easy on me too. original.gif

Sources:
[1]:  http://www.whatisscientology.org


Edited by UnaFragger, 12 July 2005 - 07:54 PM.

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#4    JohnnyBoyC

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Posted 12 July 2005 - 08:52 PM

BODY POST 1

Let me give you a better understanding of what scientology is. It is based in the belief that we are materially wealthier than our ancestors, but the quality, on a spiritual level, has not matched our material gain. In fact, many people argue that we were happier in older, simpler times.

QUOTE
(4) Most individuals have no real grasp on the factors that govern there existence. And yet, simply stated, if they had a greater understanding of themselves and their fellows they would be able to improve conditions and thus, live happier lives. This, then, is the purpose of scientology, to enable man to improve his lot, through understanding
(1)

Before scientology, the never ending scientific advances of our time and age, were not matched by the advances in humanity. Man’s knowledge of physical science far succeeded his knowledge of himself. The result? A dramatic imbalance in society that has plunged society into a chaos, and threatens our own future. So in all, Scientology stands for the restoration of spiritual balance.

The restoration of balance to ourselves could never be called occult. The reason is is considered a cult is because it is much much different than any other religion out there. But there are similarities to other religions.

QUOTE
The central beliefs of Scientology are that:

   1) a person is an immortal spiritual being (termed a thetan) who posses a mind and a body, accomponied by a lesser "genetic entity";
   2) that the thetan has lived through many past lives, stored memories which can cause problems in the present day;
   3) and that a person is basically good, but is "abberated" by the memories of past traumas.

Scientology claims to offer an exact methdology to help a person achieve spiritual and ethical education, awareness, and improvement, so that he or she may achieve a level of spiritual purity as well as greater effectivness in the physical world. The ultimate goal of Scientology is to "rehabilitate" the thetan, restoring its superhuman abilities to comtrol "matter, energy, space and time"

Another basic tenet of Scientology is that there are three interrelated (and intrinsically spiritual) components that are the very makeup of successful "livingness": affinity,reality (or agreement), and communication. Hubbard called this the "ARC Triangle". Scientologists utilize ARC as a central organizing principle in there lives, primarily based upon the belief that raising one aspect of the triangle increases the other two.


Obviously these are a set of beliefs. There are more beliefs that will be explained in upcoming paragraphs.
Back to the definition of religion. Scientology does follow every aspect of the definition, and deserves to be treated as such.
It is stated that Scientology takes away the mystery in the world. That it takes away. Scientology does accept the form of a God. Entitled Xenu. More will be explained of Xenu in following paragraphs, but basically he was the equivalent of the traditional God.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
WIKIPEDIA
SCIENTOLOGY.ORG

Edited by JohnnyBoyC, 20 July 2005 - 06:04 PM.

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#5    UnaFragger

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Posted 14 July 2005 - 06:10 PM

Body Post 1

As claims have been made that Scientology is spiritual in nature, so have claims been made of the other cults that have sprung up in the past.  In response to the previous post, I too would like to give you a clearer understanding of what Scientology actually is, and not what it claims to be.  Scientology operates more as a business than a religion, and has much more in common with a cult than a religion.  

Scientology as a Business.

Scientology was created by a Science Fiction author.  As any other authors would, he wants to sell his books.  Scientology’s most sacred document is the book entitled “Dianetics: The Modern Science of Mental Health.”  This book was written in the 1950s as a means for readers to improve their mental health through this technique that Ron Hubbard had set out called “Dianetics.” [4]  This book has been printed in paperback, hardcover, and is sold from book dealers around the globe.

Not only was this a way for L. Ron Hubbard to sell his book, it was a way for him and his associates to make more money in even more diverse ways. Believers must pay a certain amount of money, and attend enough of the services to be considered in high enough OT (Operating Thetan) levels of the “church” to learn of the true beliefs and theology behind the scientific belief. [4]

QUOTE
Scientology has a theology that is revealed only to those who have paid enough and earned sufficient status to qualify. […] Although supposedly secret, enough of it has been revealed to disclose its character. Scientology does not use this secret theology as its proselytizing medium, in the way Christianity uses the gospels. Scientology uses this theology for two purposes. First, as an incentive to get its true believers to pay even more money to obtain the secret. That is why Scientology keeps the theology secret from the public, and has sued those who have published parts of it for violation of copyright. In this, Scientology is quite correct. It owns the rights and the rights are profitable as long as the copyright lasts.[3]


For believers in this religion to “better themselves,” they are not given free advise by the “church,” nor are they given free books or tapes to review.  They are forced to buy these things from the church.

QUOTE
Are you having trouble "moving swiftly up the Bridge" -- that is, advancing up the stepladder of en- lightenment? Then you can have your case reviewed for a mere $1,250 "donation." Want to know "why a thetan hangs on to the physical universe?" Try 52 of Hubbard's tape-recorded speeches from 1952, titled "Ron's Philadelphia Doctorate Course Lectures," for $2,525. Next: nine other series of the same sort. For the collector, gold-and-leather-bound editions of 22 of Hubbard's books (and bookends) on subjects ranging from Scientology ethics to radiation can be had for just $1,900.


If that wasn’t enough, Scientology operates in many other forms.  Just a couple of these are shown below:

QUOTE
HealthMed, a chain of clinics run by Scientologists, promotes a grueling and excessive system of saunas, exercise and vitamins designed by Hubbard to purify the body. Experts denounce the regime as quackery and potentially harmful, yet HealthMed solicits unions and public agencies for contracts


QUOTE
Scientology mischiefmaking has even moved to the book industry. Since 1985 at least a dozen Hubbard books, printed by a church company, have made best-seller lists. They range from a 5,000-page sci-fi decology (Black Genesis, The Enemy Within, An Alien Affair) to the 40-year-old Dianetics.


As you can see, there are many business enterprises at work here.  With business, comes the payment of taxes to the governments of the respected countries in which they operate.  The founder of the practice, Ron Hubbard, began hiding Scientology under the guise of “Religion” in 1971.

QUOTE
An Internal Revenue Service ruling in 1967 stripped Scientology's mother church of its tax-exempt status. A federal court ruled in 1971 that Hubbard's medical claims were bogus and that E-meter auditing could no longer be called a scientific treatment. Hubbard responded by going fully religious, seeking First Amendment protection for Scientology's strange rites. His counselors started sporting clerical collars. Chapels were built, franchises became "missions," fees became "fixed donations," and Hubbard's comic-book cosmology became "sacred scriptures.'[2]


So, since Ron Hubbard was freed from paying taxes to operate his business, he was free to grow it and expand on it as much as he would like.

In the next section, I will show you how Scientology has more in common with a “Cult” than with a “Religion.”  I will also try to show you more about the religious belief of “Xenu,” and how it is not something that can be considered a religion.

--

[2] The Thriving Cult of Greed and Power. Richard Behar. TIME Magazine.  Full text can be viewed at http://www-2.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/Fishman/time-behar.html

[3]  Scientology: Religion or Business.  http://www.cincinnatiskeptics.org/newslett...cientology.html

[4]  Wikipedia.org on Scientology.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientology


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#6    JohnnyBoyC

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Posted 15 July 2005 - 08:49 PM

BODY POST 2

The very idea that Scientoliogy is a business is insullting. Since the definition of religion passes Scientology as such, saying that it is a business is insulting towards all other religions. Scientologists need money just like all churhes do, for the single purpose to keep themselves up, and helping people like all other religions do.
Back to what I stated earlier, Scientology is attacked for the reason that it is different than mainstream religion. And also as said before, The Scientologic God is named "Xenu" Xenu was a galactic tyrant that brought his victims to Earth, and destroyed them with hydrogen bombs. But he brought humans here to inhabit Earth instead. This idea is way "out there" and is so different it is defined a "cult" or an evil organization, when in truth, all that L. Ron Hubbard wanted to do was improve the lives of people and make them happier.

QUOTE
Operating Thetan Levels and the Xenu incident
The "Hidden Truth" about the nature of the universe is taught to the most advanced Scientologists in a series of programs known as the Advanced Levels or Operating Thetan levels (eight in all), for which the initiate needs to be thoroughly prepared. These are the levels above "Clear," and their contents are held in strict confidence within Scientology. The highest level, OT VIII, is only disclosed at sea, on the Scientology cruise ship Freewinds. However, since being entered into evidence in several court cases beginning in the mid-1980s, synopses and excerpts of these secret teachings have appeared in innumerable publications.

In the OT levels, Hubbard describes a variety of traumas commonly experienced in past lives. He explains how to reverse the effects of such traumas by "running" various Scientology processes. Among these advanced teachings, one key episode that is revealed to those who reach OT level III has been widely remarked upon in the press: the story of Xenu, the galactic tyrant who stacked hundreds of billions of his frozen victims around Earth's volcanoes 75 million years ago before blowing them up with hydrogen bombs and brainwashing them with a "three-D, super colossal motion picture" for 36 days. The traumatised thetans subsequently clustered around human bodies, in effect acting as invisible spiritual parasites known as "Body Thetans" that can only be removed using advanced Scientology techniques.


Scientologists argue that accounts such as the Xenu story are pulled out of context and published for the purpose of ridiculing their religion. Journalists and critics of Scientology counter that Xenu is part of a much wider Scientology belief in alien past lives, some of which has been public knowledge for decades. For instance, Hubbard's 1958 book Have You Lived Before This Life (ISBN 0884044475) documents past lives as described by individual Scientologists during auditing sessions. These included incidents such as being "deceived into a love affair with a robot decked out as a beautiful red-haired girl", being run over by a Martian bishop driving a steamroller, being transformed into an intergalactic walrus which perished after falling out of a flying saucer and being "a very happy being who strayed to the planet Nostra 23,064,000,000 years ago".

Although reliable statistics are not available, it is fair to say that most Scientologists are not at a sufficiently high level on "the bridge" to learn about Xenu. Therefore, belief in Xenu cannot be regarded as amongst the beliefs commonly espoused by the majority of Scientologists. On the other hand, Scientology literature does include many references to extraterrestrial past lives and internal Scientology publications are often illustrated with pictures of spaceships and oblique references to catastrophic events that happened "75 million years ago" (i.e. the Xenu incident).


That quote basically sums up the main belief.
Many parts of it, even I cannot agree with. It is for these reasons that people cast is out as a cult or evil organization. None the less, no matter how different beliefs are, they supposed to be respected.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Wikipedia

EDIT. Added more on 7/15/05 7:14 eastern time

Edited by JohnnyBoyC, 20 July 2005 - 06:05 PM.

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#7    UnaFragger

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Posted 18 July 2005 - 05:05 PM

Body Post II

Although Jonny claims that it’s insulting to describe Scientology as a business, the practices and methods of Scientology are almost identical to that of running a business.  Although all churches need money to stay in existence, most of these ask for small donations by a large number of participants.  The church of Scientology requires huge donations by a select few.

Scientology does face many criticisms in the way of it not being a mainstream religion.  This is because the beliefs held by Scientology are so outrageous that it can only be described as borderline ‘cult.’  This leads me into my next argument for why Scientology is not a religion.

Scientology as a Cult

In an attempt to clear up why, I offer you several definitions of the word “cult.”

QUOTE
Cults are groups that often exploit members psychologically and/or financially, typically by making members comply with leadership's demands through certain types of psychological manipulation, popularly called mind control, and through the inculcation of deep-seated anxious dependency on the group and its leaders[5]

This definition is a perfect example of Scientology.  Scientology offers methods to “better oneself,” but then requires users to be at a high enough “OT Level” to receive all of the benefits that Scientology has to offer.  

Another definition of cult reads:

QUOTE
Cult: A group or movement exhibiting a great or excessive devotion or dedication to some person, idea, or thing and employing unethically manipulative techniques of persuasion and control . . . designed to advance the goals of the group's leaders to the actual or possible detriment of members, their families, or the community.[5]

Scientology may have helped some people get past some psychological issues, but it has also hurt its members at the same time.  I will elaborate.

QUOTE
Harriet Baker learned the hard way about Scientology's business of selling religion. When Baker, 73, lost her husband to cancer, a Scientologist turned up at her Los Angeles home peddling a $1,300 auditing package to cure her grief. Some $15,000 later, the Scientologists discovered that her house was debt free. They arranged a $45,000 mortgage, which they pressured her to tap for more auditing until Baker's children helped their mother snap out of her daze.[2]

QUOTE
Before Noah Lottick killed himself, he had paid more than $5,000 for church counseling. His behavior had also become strange. He once remarked to his parents that his Scientology mentors could actually read minds. When his father suffered a major heart attack, Noah insisted that it was purely psychosomatic. Five days before he jumped, Noah burst into his parents' home and demanded to know why they were spreading "false rumors" about him[2]

As with other cults, the beliefs that Scientology holds so dear are so outrageous that only a small handful of people could possibly accept them as even feasible.  Although called “Scientology,” there is no scientific backing in these beliefs whatsoever.

Just to reiterate a bit of what was said in my opponent’s last post:

QUOTE
Xenu, the galactic tyrant who stacked hundreds of billions of his frozen victims around Earth's volcanoes 75 million years ago before blowing them up with hydrogen bombs and brainwashing them with a "three-D, super colossal motion picture" for 36 days.

Okay…  Who knew there were hydrogen bombs and motion pictures 75 million ago.  Maybe that’s how the dinosaurs died too.

To add to it, have a look at the vessel that was used to transport these victims to earth:

user posted image

If this belief wasn’t enough “off mainstream” to be considered a cult, maybe the following will sway your opinions slightly:

QUOTE
Hubbard's 1958 book Have You Lived Before This Life (ISBN 0884044475) documents past lives as described by individual Scientologists during auditing sessions. These included incidents such as being "deceived into a love affair with a robot decked out as a beautiful red-haired girl", being run over by a Martian bishop driving a steamroller, being transformed into an intergalactic walrus which perished after falling out of a flying saucer and being "a very happy being who strayed to the planet Nostra 23,064,000,000 years ago".

To sum it all up, wikipedia says it best:

QUOTE
a cult is a group of people devoted to beliefs and goals which are not held by the majority of society[…]. Its marginal status may come about either due to its novel belief system or due to idiosyncratic practices that cause the surrounding culture to regard it as far outside the mainstream.

--

[2] The Thriving Cult of Greed and Power. Richard Behar. TIME Magazine.  Full text can be viewed at http://www-2.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/Fishman/time-behar.html

[5] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cult


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#8    JohnnyBoyC

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Posted 20 July 2005 - 06:02 PM

BODY POST 3
------------------------------------
QUOTE
Harriet Baker learned the hard way about Scientology's business of selling religion. When Baker, 73, lost her husband to cancer, a Scientologist turned up at her Los Angeles home peddling a $1,300 auditing package to cure her grief. Some $15,000 later, the Scientologists discovered that her house was debt free. They arranged a $45,000 mortgage, which they pressured her to tap for more auditing until Baker's children helped their mother snap out of her daze.[2]


You say scientology is a cult because some people charged her for a morgage? Since when does your job mean anything???

If thoses people where Jewish, would you say for that reason that Judisim is a cult? Just because some people in Scientology did somthing bad dosen't mean all of them are.

Yes, some things of scientology ARE bizzare. But you must also view the source of the information. The passage was taken from Wikipedia. Wikipedia is a source ANYONE can change. It would be EASY for ANYONE to put false information into Wikipedia. Even though I provided it in the first place, we should take our information from a more credible source such as Scientology.com

QUOTE
What is Scientology?
The aims of Scientology are a world without insanity, without criminals, without war, where the able can prosper and where Man is free to rise to greater heights.

And if you were to ask any Scientologist they would tell you it is a practical religion, with practical answers — tools that can be applied to achieve greater awareness and purpose in the here and now.

Or, as we say it, when you have the answers to life's questions — there is virtually no part of existence it cannot be applied to for the betterment of life itself.

What people need are real solutions, real tools to deal with and effectively overcome human problems.

Every one of us has experienced it.

Think back yourself and you'll remember when you tried to help a grieving loved one, a struggling child, a friend overcome by addiction.

And where you have failed, it's only because you lacked effective answers to accomplish what you desired.


That is a better summary of what scientlology REALLY is. Not some story aout intergalactic walruses and so on. But a RELIGION to help us improve.

The following is another quote from Scientology.com, this explains what exactly the benifeits of scientology are and what it can do to help you.

QUOTE
The Scientology religion is about the individual man or woman. Its goal is to bring an individual to a sufficient understanding of himself and his life and free him to make improvements where he finds them necessary and in the ways he sees fit.
Scientology is a workable system. Evidence may be seen in the lives of millions of Scientologists and the positive effect they create. People improve their lives through Scientology principles. As Scientologists in all walks of life will attest, they have enjoyed greatest success in their relationships, family life, jobs and professions. This web site contains some of these successes.

It also provides suggested books, materials and courses one can do to learn and apply Scientology principles and apply them to one’s life to create successful relationships, deal with stress, communicate with others and resolve family problems and more, all on the road to true spiritual freedom.

As with any endeavor, the benefits you will experience depend on your honest and diligent participation. Thus, while churches of Scientology make no claims concerning specific personal benefits any individual will experience in Scientology, we are happy to be able to share the many positive experiences of our members who speak for themselves.


Scientology is NOT a business
Scientology is NOT a cult
Scientology is NOT just a crazy idea
Scientology IS a RELIGION

Edited by JohnnyBoyC, 20 July 2005 - 06:03 PM.

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#9    Lottie

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Posted 22 July 2005 - 04:10 PM

*Presses pause button* Unafragger is not available until early next week  thumbsup.gif  .


#10    UnaFragger

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Posted 26 July 2005 - 07:24 PM

I'm BACK!  Thanks for holding off.  Had a much-needed beach vacation in Nag's Head. grin2.gif

Body Post 3

QUOTE
You say scientology is a cult because some people charged her for a morgage? Since when does your job mean anything???

The aforementioned quote simply explains how Scientology is after nothing more than money -- forcing a helpless lady into taking out another mortgage on her home just so that they could charge her more and more money for the same, nonsense services.  I fail to see how that relates to the meaning of my job.

QUOTE
If thoses people where Jewish, would you say for that reason that Judisim is a cult? Just because some people in Scientology did somthing bad dosen't mean all of them are.

If followers of Judaism decided to force people into mortgaging their home so they could get more money out of them for “self help,” then yes, they would probably be criticized as not being a religion as well.  But they don’t do that because they ARE a religion, and they stand for morals as does any other religion.

QUOTE
we should take our information from a more credible source such as Scientology.com

If you wish that we take quotes from more “appropriate” sources, than Scientology.com is definitely NOT the way to go.  That website will offer information in it’s favor, reguardless of whether or not it’s true.  In order to get a truthful, unbiased view of scientology, you must take the information from a source that has nothing to gain out of portraying it in one way or the other.  In my opinion, wikipedia is valid in this perspective.

If we’re going for more appropriate sources, however, how’s the Merriam-Webster definition of a cult:
QUOTE
great devotion to a person, idea, object, movement, or work (as a film or book); especially : such devotion regarded as a literary or intellectual fad b : a usually small group of people characterized by such devotion

Yep, still applies.

I’d also like to point you to the above quotes from TIME Magazine.

Or, how about an essay written by an ex scientologist taken from a University website?  I’ll give you the highlights.

QUOTE
The OT levels are very secret in Scientology. People spend many thousands of dollars, sometimes hundreds of thousands of dollars, to get onto these OT levels that are supposed to enable one to achieve such phenomenal abilities. No one has yet been able to exhibit any of these so-called super-human abilities, which on average cost USD 360,000, but many people are still trying. Some have been on these upper levels for as long as fifteen to twenty years. [7]


QUOTE
Here is Hubbard's so-called factual and scientific truth that all
Scientologist's must not only accept as reality but experience as reality:

75 million years ago, the galactic overlord for this sector of the galaxy was
called Xenu. He was in charge of 76 planets, including Earth (at that time
known as Teegeeack).

All of the planets Xenu controlled were over-populated by, on average, 178
billion people. Social problems dictated that Xenu rid his sector of the
galaxy of this overpopulation problem, so he developed a plan.

Xenu sent out tax audit demands to all these trillions of people. As each one
entered the audit centers for the income tax inspections, the people were
seized, held down and injected with a mixture of alcohol and glycol, and
frozen. Then, all 13.5 trillion of these frozen people were put into
spaceships that looked exactly like DC8 airplanes, except that the spaceships
had rocket engines instead of propellers.

Xenu's entire fleet of DC8-like spaceships then flew to planet Earth, where
the frozen people were dumped in and around volcanoes in the Canary Islands
and the Hawaiian Islands. When Xenu's Air Force had finished dumping the
bodies into the volcanoes, hydrogen bombs were dropped into the volcanoes and
the frozen space aliens were vaporized.[7]


This article is definitely worth a full read, if you’re interested in just how off-mainstream this “religion” really is.  

QUOTE
We have calculated that on average, each person on planet earth has 2,209 of
these Body Thetans (BT's for short), Hubbard's term for the alien spirits,
attached to you causing you to be constrained by Xenu's false reality. The
average cost for Scientology to OT 8 is a mere USD 360,000, meaning that each
BT only costs USD 163 to clear. Now that is a bargain if there ever was one.


[6]  http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book...va=cult&x=0&y=0

[7]  http://www-2.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/OTIII/minton-essay.txt

Edited by UnaFragger, 26 July 2005 - 07:26 PM.

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#11    JohnnyBoyC

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Posted 27 July 2005 - 03:13 PM

Scientology is still a religion regardless of how much money it costs. It is a belief that people follow, commit to, and will do anything to support. An BT does not have to be flushed out. Ask yourself, if you REALLY believed in scientology, you would do anything to support it and go to heaven. Say you were catholic and had millions of dollars, and your priest came to you and told you the church was closing, you would give money because it would be a bad thing not to give your extra money to the church, so you see, in order to go to heaven in the CATHOLIC belief, you have to do good things, in the scientologic religion, you have to flush out body thetans, to go to heaven, and if that costs money, people won't care because they want to get to heaven. Scientology is a religion because, once again, it has all the things a religion does, and it is somthing people commit to.

Edited by JohnnyBoyC, 27 July 2005 - 03:14 PM.

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#12    UnaFragger

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Posted 27 July 2005 - 04:01 PM

QUOTE(JohnnyBoyC @ Jul 27 2005, 11:13 AM)
Say you were catholic and had millions of dollars, and your priest came to you and told you the church was closing, you would give money because it would be a bad thing not to give your extra money to the church, so you see, in order to go to heaven in the CATHOLIC belief, you have to do good things, in the scientologic religion, you have to flush out body thetans, to go to heaven, and if that costs money, people won't care because they want to get to heaven.

View Post


Scientology has virtually nothing in common with religions. The beliefs of aliens and people living billions of years ago are not in-sync with any other religious belief there is.

If a priest tells you the church is going to close, and you donate a lot of money TO the church, than you are doing a good thing.  If the priest comes to you, and charges you thousands of dollars for "self-help" tapes, and makes you pay money to continue with your religious progression, it crosses the line of being religious.  Scientology does not ask for donations, they require them in order to better yourself and to continue to higher OT levels.

QUOTE(JohnnyBoyC @ Jul 27 2005, 11:13 AM)
Scientology is a religion because, once again, it has all the things a religion does, and it is somthing people commit to.

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There are a lot of things that people commit to.  Many people, such as the founder of scientology, are committed to making a lot of money.  Just because it has a group of people "committed" to it, doesn't make it a religion.

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#13    JohnnyBoyC

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Posted 27 July 2005 - 07:05 PM

One does not HAVE to progress to higher OT levels, if one does not have the money, they will not take the course, they could set up a loan, and have plenty of financial options.  If the person whishes to become a higher OT level, then they will go and do it. If they do not, they won't. As with all things in this world, there are things we want that we can't have. Scientology charging prices for self help tapes has nothing to do with its definition.

QUOTE
Scientology-
a controversial belief system developed by L. Ron Hubbard, based on a person being an immortal spiritual being whose survival depends on him/herself and his/her attainment of brotherhood with others and the universe


QUOTE
Religion-
A set of beliefs, values, and practices based on the teachings of a spiritual leader.


These two definitions match perfectly because they are both sets of beliefs

QUOTE
Judaisim-
The cultural, religious, and social practices and beliefs of the Jews.


Once again, a belief system.

It matches with all religions, a BELIEF SYSTEM, in other words a religion. No matter the expense.
------------------------------

Quotes from Dictionary.com

Edited by JohnnyBoyC, 27 July 2005 - 07:06 PM.

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#14    UnaFragger

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Posted 28 July 2005 - 05:42 PM

Body Post 5

Ron  Hubbard himself, before the scheme he imployed to begin evading taxes, was fully aware of the fact that scientology had nothing  to do with religion.

QUOTE
"Theta clearing is about as practical and simple as repairing a shoe
lace.  It is nothing to do with hypnotism, voodooism, charalatanism,
monkeyism or theosophy.  Done, the thetan can do anything a stage
magician can do in the way of moving objects around.  But this isn't
attained by holding one's breath or thinking right thoughts or voting
Republican or any other superstitous or mystic practice.  So for the
reason I brought up, rule out, auditor, any mumbo jumbo or mysticism,
spiritualism, or religion."[8]

QUOTE
"Scientology has opened the gates to a better World.  It is not a
psycho-therapy nor a religion.  It is a body of knowledge which, when
properly used, gives freedom and truth to the individual."[8]

He, himself also stated in a letter written to Helen O'Brien, who had taken over the development of Scientology in the US.

QUOTE
The arrangements that have been made seem a good temporary
measure.  On a longer look, however, something more equitable will have
to be organized.  I am not quite sure what we would call the place -
probably not a clinic - but I am sure that it ought to be a company,
independent of the HAS but fed by the HAS.[8]

QUOTE
I await your reaction on the religion angle.  In my opinion, we
couldn't get worse public opinion than we have had or have less
customers with what we've got to sell.  A religious charter would be
necessary in Pennsylvania or NJ to make it stick.  But I sure could make
it stick.  We're treating the present time beingness, psychotherapy
treats the past and the brain.  And brother, that's religion, not mental
science.[8]



[8]  http://www.ezlink.com/~perry/Co$/Christian/barwell2.htm

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#15    JohnnyBoyC

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Posted 28 July 2005 - 06:10 PM

Conclusion
-----------------
Scientology IS a religion whether Ron Hubbard wanted it to be or not. Scientology has morphed from a way of life, to a belief, to a RELIGION. And the number of people today. A census showed that there are 55,000 scientologists in the US, and an estimated 8 million in the world. Scientology has become a full fledged religon since the time of L. Ron Hubbards death, or actually, he believed he didn't die, butmoved on to a class higher than human. Scientology IS a religion, and at that a popular one. And the numbers are increasing every day with Celebrities become scientologists, and influencing the world. In the near future, I predict that scientology will be considered one of the top 5 religions in the near future.




That concludes my Side of the debate. Good Luck UnaFragger  thumbsup.gif

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