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Different religions


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#61    Sherapy

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Posted 26 July 2005 - 01:19 AM

Hi Faeden, thankyou for your candidness its a pleasure talking with someone who does think for themselves and has opinions, I think Jesus was an amazing role model He talked only of love as the solution to anything My grandmother always told me that there is no problem to big that can't be solved with love, In my experience thathas been verygood  advice. I don't believe in violence either as a means to solve anything but it seems to be the only recourse this world uses.  Namaste Sheri




#62    Faeden

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Posted 26 July 2005 - 01:22 AM

Yes that is true, because its so easy to just lash out, and its so much harder to just walk away. Your gran sounds like a wise and good woman  yes.gif

Edited by Faeden, 26 July 2005 - 01:26 AM.

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#63    Sherapy

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Posted 26 July 2005 - 01:55 AM

I think too humanity has lost touch with its true nature and you are right it has become normal excepted to "lash" out over anything When you are in touch with your true loving nature its abnormal to "lash" out you see it as a measure of your awareness and highly aware people rarely if at all use violence as a means to restore peace, Are people victums of religion? What point to we except resposibility for our choices and our beleifs??? What do yo uthink??? Namaste Sheri




#64    Putte

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Posted 26 July 2005 - 07:49 AM

QUOTE(Faeden @ Jul 25 2005, 07:43 PM)
QUOTE
Try removing religion out of the equation. Do you think Usama would NOT have attacked? Do you think Bush would NOT have retaliated?


Of course Osama would not have attacked if religion was not in the equation, that is the point I am trying to make.

If religion was out of the equation then no one would have done 9/11, and no one would have retaliated. I think your agreeing with me going on your above quote, am I right?

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I don't know which quote you're talking about, but I can't remember saying anything like that.

I fully disagree. If there was no religion, Usama would still have attacked. Not because of religious belief, no, but because of other reasons. It's been said earlier in this thread; evil people don't need excuses - they make up their own. That's why, even without religion, the US, the UK, and the rest of the western world, would be under a constant threat from terrorists. Their God didn't tell them to do it - they do it on their own, because they have something against the western lifestyle.


#65    Lady

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Posted 26 July 2005 - 08:40 AM

Sheri and Faeden (or is that satan???) I hear what you're saying and yes, love would be a wonderful answer to all our probelms, but unfortunately life doesn't work that way.  To follow the ideal that love solves everything you would have to assume that everyone had the same thoughts and ideas.  What happens when you don't agree on something?

It's easy to say that everything could be solved by love, but what if one person thinks (for example) that dogs are revolting creatures and no one should be allowed to keep them.  This person is recognised by others of a similar mindset, whilst those doggy lovers are on the opposing side.  How is this problem solved?  The non-dog lovers are not just going to say 'oh well that's down to you, do what you like' they're more likely to say 'we think keeping dogs is wrong and we're going to stop you'.

I don't know if that gets my point across, but I'm trying to say that love will never prevail.  There is far too much conflict within the human race and no, we're not all fuzzy loving creatures by nature.  We are in fact territorial, aggressive and sometimes positively sadistic.  Yes there are elements of unity and benevolence towards others, but this simply originates from the fact that humans are naturally gregarious, so some measure of cooperation is need to protect the pack/ herd.  Unfortunately, for a lot of people this is as far as it goes...


#66    Sherapy

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Posted 26 July 2005 - 04:54 PM

QUOTE(Lady @ Jul 26 2005, 01:40 AM)
Sheri and Faeden (or is that satan???) I hear what you're saying and yes, love would be a wonderful answer to all our probelms, but unfortunately life doesn't work that way.  To follow the ideal that love solves everything you would have to assume that everyone had the same thoughts and ideas.  What happens when you don't agree on something?

It's easy to say that everything could be solved by love, but what if one person thinks (for example) that dogs are revolting creatures and no one should be allowed to keep them.  This person is recognised by others of a similar mindset, whilst those doggy lovers are on the opposing side.  How is this problem solved?  The non-dog lovers are not just going to say 'oh well that's down to you, do what you like' they're more likely to say 'we think keeping dogs is wrong and we're going to stop you'.

I don't know if that gets my point across, but I'm trying to say that love will never prevail.  There is far too much conflict within the human race and no, we're not all fuzzy loving creatures by nature.  We are in fact territorial, aggressive and sometimes positively sadistic.  Yes there are elements of unity and benevolence towards others, but this simply originates from the fact that humans are naturally gregarious, so some measure of cooperation is need to protect the pack/ herd.  Unfortunately, for a lot of people this is as far as it goes...

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What I would address is how are people coming to these ideas??? Why would someone think dogs are revolting???Its observeable that people have been taught its normal to beleive  that is it natural to be agressive and territorial and sadistic, We live ina beleif system that teaches there is not enough for everyone so we hav eto compete just to get ours Do you notice everything is about the survival of the fittest its  not the truth yet it seems like the truth beause everyone belives it  which puts it into place, its the same with alot of beleifs that are currently collectively shared, We need to address our core beleifs that  is what creates our experiences, Advertisers know that politics knows that  religion knows that so they use that, most people are aware that you can control by beleifs. The most fervently held beleifs are taht God is a Jeaulous God?? Waht kind of message does that teach??? What about Vengence is mine Sayeth the Lord???Would it be possible tht alot of people doing "Gods work"" might and do take that literally, I'm not attacking anyone I'm just asking questions??   If you take away all the absurd beleifs that are taught you would only be left with what is natural and I can attest to this you will only find love and goodness I have this experience and I can tell you love does prevail , Every master that has walked has reminded us that its the answer, I would say try it and see how it works for you , don't except someone elses decision about its effectiveness. Namaste Sheri

Edited by Sheri berri, 26 July 2005 - 06:59 PM.




#67    tony de Lucchi

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Posted 26 July 2005 - 05:57 PM

What a wonderful world. I think John Lennon coined it all in “Imagine”.

Who am I to doubt his genius?
Yeah look at all the murder perpetuated in the name of religion.

The 1st world war was started by a slavic student of the pan-slavic movement who supported anarchy as a means of achieving “freedom”. Freedom from what?

The anarchists of the late 19 hundreds and early 20's maimed and killed thousands of people.

Napoleon riding on the tails of Robespierre and Danton conquered Europe, displacing thousands, killing untold thousands all in the name of Nationalism, Republicism and secularism. These were not religious men. In fact they sought to destroy all religion.

The 2nd world war resulted in the death of 54 million people. Hitler was not an adherent to any religious philosophy. In fact he sought to destroy religion and replace it with the supreme state.

Josef Stalin believed in no god. He believed in the aspirations of Communism, a classless, raceless society governed by man. In his pursuit of this Ideology he killed up to 60 million people.

Atilla the Hun in pursuit of conquest killed thousands, not in the name of religion. Ghengis Kahn conquered the known world and more killing thousands probably millions just to be the greatest emporer ever.

The list is endless, but yet religion is the cause all conflict.

In fact I would stick my neck out and say quite candidly that all the deaths perpetuated by the Christian Church during the Crusades, Inquisition even between the violent infractions of the reformation, even with apologies to the Jewish religion, during the many pograms in Europe does not even measure to a drop in the bucket of death brought about by the non-religious forces.

But then again what do I know, I liked Spike Milligan.




#68    Sherapy

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Posted 26 July 2005 - 07:20 PM

We are built on religious fundamentalism whether yu believe in God or not does not change the fact that our sytems are relflections of religious taeahings its in the political system and the justice system and even though "God" is kept out of religion it is not, the main tool used in the school system to geet children to conform is punishment and fear. The great experiment called America is built on  Religion our money has "in God we trust" our justice system "so help me god" etc. People will die and do to this day to defend the bible as the most sacred writtings of all time, do not be fooled we are strongly influenced by religion.  Granted America has made some progress in unity but not enough and as long as we uphold our current religious beleifs we will  have war and disord and disunity,  One would think that the massive death toll that has happened in this world would be enough to make serious changes in the way we think,   Namaste sheri




#69    Faeden

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Posted 26 July 2005 - 08:33 PM

Hi Putte

I find your beliefs a little strange, I hope that doesn’t offend, but I do not understand how you came up with that, but you have the right to them  original.gif

Hi Sherri Berri

QUOTE
Are people victums of religion? What point to we except resposibility for our choices and our beleifs??? What do yo uthink???


I do not believe that people are victims of religion, rather the victims of fear and hate that can spring from religion. Religion as a whole, and its roots I believe are good, lets not forget all the good done in the name or religion such as charities, and hospitals, and aid, and orphanages, it also brings a lot of comfort to millions, and hope that they will meet there loved ones again.

I believe the thing that makes humans by default is that we all have free will, we are free to either give in to our negative emotions, or to do the hard thing and to turn the other cheek, without free will there would be no test, we are responsible for our own actions and whether or not we pass our tests, that is why I do not believe in The Devil or this scapegoat that gives people a way of taking the responsibility away from themselves. The idea of a devil takes away the idea that we have free will, because we can do what we wish, and then say "the devil made me do it, god please forgive me" pathing the way to ignore our free will again in the future. I would rather blame my self and say sorry to the one or ones I had harmed as, I did not harm god directly, so ill ask for forgiveness from those I hurt, including my self.

I also believe that we make our own after life, in the sense that we are responsible for our own free will, if we go to a bad place after death we cant blame god or a devil, we only have our selves to blame, because it was the person that did there actions (not god or a devil) we will be with spirits of a like mind after death (like attracts like in life, as it does in death)

The after life to me is not a punishment or reward, its just something that we will naturally become apart of depending on how our heart is, if someone’s a evil selfish angry person, and has no light within them then they can expect a dark and lonely place after death, until they see the light so to speak and accept responsibility for there actions, and recognise there own free will, and then can then be helped out of there darkness, and ignorance. If someone is by heart a good person than the opposite applies. The after life is all as natural as it is on earth, just the after life is more complex and beyond what our physical being can comprehend.

Sorry for ramblings on there, but that is what I feel about free will, its free, what we do with it is up to us, and if it ends up costing us then that is our fault, so responsibility is up to us, and us alone.

Hi Lady

QUOTE
Sheri and Faeden (or is that satan???) I hear what you're saying and yes, love would be a wonderful answer to all our probelms, but unfortunately life doesn't work that way.


It is easy to say that love is the answer yes, but getting there is hard because of how powerful our emotions are, most people would rather take the easier route, or the one that might seem easy at first, instead of the one that seems harder which is turning the other cheek. The one that looks harder normally turns out to be easier in the long run, the one that seems the easy route normally turns out to be harder in the long run.

I believe that we put to much hope in god, and leave to much up to god. Life is for the living, and its up to the living (not god) to change our world for the better, if we lay back and expect god to do everything why should he/she? He/she gave us free will, if we put all our responsibilities on gods shoulders, where does that leave free will? You say its not reality... Well I believe that we make our reality, and even though a peaceful world is a hard thing to achieve and might seem impossible to some, it is possible if we go out of our way to try harder to fight against our emotions.

People think of the now and the past, rather than the longer future, which is man kinds biggest mistake in my view. Peace on earth is a hard thing to achieve, but as we all have free will, and we are all on this planet together its up to us, and only us to make it happen, if we think crap to that, and we will leave it up to god, then we are all doomed.

Many people think I live in a fantasy world, and maybe I do, but its dreams and fantasies that are what causes people to do the impossible, maybe if more people had dreams and fantasy then the tide might change for the better, surely its worth a try? What else have we all got to loose? well everything actually....

All the best
Faeden

Edited by Faeden, 26 July 2005 - 08:35 PM.

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#70    101

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Posted 26 July 2005 - 08:42 PM

IMO I believe that all religions aren't the same. Because all gods aren't the same. The true God is the God the father. He is who is God. But you can stem religions from Christianity,there are baptists,penecostal,etc. I think that is the best way to answer.

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#71    Lady

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Posted 26 July 2005 - 08:42 PM

Faeden - it's quite refreshing to hear someone talk the way you do.  You are right.  We can make our own futures and it is wrong to expect anyone else to change things for us.  The question I have now is how do we change the world?  One person can't take down a government or dictator.  Similarly, it's very difficult for one person to change an ideology.

Any suggestions?  happy.gif


#72    Faeden

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Posted 26 July 2005 - 09:50 PM

QUOTE(Lady @ Jul 26 2005, 09:42 PM)
Faeden - it's quite refreshing to hear someone talk the way you do.  You are right.  We can make our own futures and it is wrong to expect anyone else to change things for us.  The question I have now is how do we change the world?  One person can't take down a government or dictator.  Similarly, it's very difficult for one person to change an ideology.

Any suggestions?  happy.gif

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True one person cant do much, but most ideology and ideas have been started by a small few but it takes time. I think humans have a bad habit of complicating things to much, and fail to see the simple truths that are screaming them in the face. The human psyche is a complex one, but its instincts and needs are pretty simple. I believe humans are more willing as they have always been in the past, to change there ideals and ideas if they can see for them self, that it works for others around them, and will make there lives better for them selves and there family, and there way of life, its a slow and unconscious process, that can only be recognised through history.

I believe humanity is slowly advancing it self, because it changes its ideology over time, and it does so when it sees something positive happening to others that seem to offer a better quality of life, some might resist it at first, because of stubbornness, or to move on, or because of old fashion beliefs, but over time new generations slowly change that obstacle of self pride. If humans are going to continue to advance them selves for the better, I believe that first the following needs to happen.....

That people understand that humans from all cultures and religions are not as different as one might first think, we all have the same needs, we all feel the same emotions.

Learn from our and each others mistakes. Look at history as a guide on how to, and not to be.

Recognise that what might be right for one person, might not be right for another.

Recognise that People are born into different cultures, which is why people have different beliefs, and that one persons belief is there right just as theirs is.

More people need to understand that for every action there is a reaction, and the reaction always comes back on the person that did the original action, and that applies to both good and bad actions.

Religions texts where never supposed to be taken literally, just a guide to help people live there personal lives. Your own belief should be literal to you. Your relationship with god should be personal to every individual.

Random acts of kindness and giving, because I believe kindness is contagious in most cases. Give only when you can. Take only when you have to, and I mean take only when offered.

Learn to forgive and to try and put your self in the shoes of those that might hurt us, and to try and understand and learn about those that harm us. Ignorance is contagious.

Listen to others before acting, or making assumptions, so much can be achieved and learned by listening to people.

Swallow the ego and self pride, and work on having the courage to admit when one is wrong.

Recognise that Envy and jealously are personal obstacles, and will only hold us back from getting what it was that one was jealous about in the first place. Irony can be a reflection of ones attitude, it can be god trying to tell you that your doing something wrong. Many people in a negative ironic situation seem to be the only ones unaware of the irony. To recognise it is a huge step forward.

Recognising that material wealth is important in a material world, but its not the most important, love and each other are what matter above all things. Without each other we have nothing, we need each other. Some of the most materially rich people I know are no way as happy as some of the poor people I know that have realised that love is priceless. When your on your own, all the material things in the world become worthless.

Treat others how you would want to be treated.

Smile at others

I believe the above although not simple, are what people need to put more energy and effort into, rather than judging each other and doing a wrong just because someone else did a wrong. If we put as much effort into positive things that we do for negative things then the world can only move forward. I do not claim to practice everything I preach, I just believe that the things above are the most important things that need to be recognised for people to better the world as a whole, but I do my very best and at the end of the day the best you have, is all you have, some people do not even try, and that is the main problem.

All the best
Faeden

Edited by Faeden, 26 July 2005 - 10:06 PM.

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#73    Sherapy

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Posted 26 July 2005 - 09:50 PM

Faeden, I agree I don't beleive in victims either we are in the end responsible for our own actions, we can't pin the blame on anyone we always have choice even no choice is still a choice, I personally feel empowered when I am responsible because I can always change myself we all can, I agree with Lady it is refreshing to have someone who cares and it shows.


Lady, I wish more people asked that question taht is a good question, I can't tell you what things you should do to make a difference only because i don't know enough about you  except you seem to love animals maybe something there if you aren't already. You are so correct we can't fight the system but we can create our own way I try as much as I can to not need the system , I'm a vegan so i support that whole movement and raise awareness I also have joined the home school movement it s real hope to change the way education is at this time its growing rapidly and when its big enough the Goverment will have to make changes the Goverment  is like that it has to be dragged kicking and screaming to change. I am a hairsylist so I donate my abilities to the homeless that means more to me than I can tell you its teaching me about caring I think there are many ways that you can fit change into your tastes just being an example people learn from watching we tell them what we know about life by the way we behave I think thats the best way. those that want to will seek you out and  become a difference to, I don't do the things I do for any other reason than because I want to  it doesn't matter to me if another does or doesn't we all have to walk our own path I don't get upset because someone else doesn't for what ever reasons do humanitarian things I am only concerned with what I am doing thats a  full time job. I do what I do  on behalf of all of us anyways, you are all my brothers and sisters. Namaste Sheri




#74    LarryOldtimer

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Posted 26 July 2005 - 11:44 PM

My take on the whole thing.

First, look at the various "Gods" . . . how do they themselves act?  Where there are a pantheon of gods, how, from writings, do they treat each other?  The answer is, just like humans treat each other.  Take Exodus 20:5:   . . .for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God . . . has to make any thinking person wonder, what on earth would there be for an all powerful god to be jealous of?  Looking at the various gods written of in history, the plain fact is that they aren't much to be admired.  To be obeyed, because they are powerful, yes, but not admirable in much of anything.  If anything, the gods have acted about the same way people do, with or without gods.

The whole point of any religion is that since it is (some) God's word, it has to be correct in its entirety.  Any other religion is, perforce, wrong, in at least some areas, and because of that, people of each religion will argue and fight with people of any other religion.  There is no way, in the long run, that people of different religions can ever get along with other, because people of each are without doubt that they are right and the other wrong.  If then others are wrong, it is a simple step to say that they must be evil, since they won't give up being wrong, and admit the "truth".  Religions may give much lip service to peace, but that inevitably ends up meaning at best, peaceful to other practitioners of the same sect of the same religion (remember, the reason there are different sects is that the others are wrong).  Having different religions, or differing sects of the "same" religion will always therefore result in disharmony among people, and ultimately, violence.

Still, is it really just a human problem?  The answer to that is no.  People who have studied monkeys in their native habitat found something interesting.  Different groups of the same species of monkeys have an interesting and revealing practice:  They separate into groups, much like tribes, and after satisfying their hunger in the morning, they line up along the boundaries of their territory, and throw feces, sticks, stones and the like at members of the other group, and constantly cross over the boundaries, jumping back into their own territory when confronted.  They then stop and forage for lunch, but are soon back at it.  Humans, it seems, also set what tribal boundaries they are able to hold, and do much the same thing, but are far better in development and selection of weapons.  Mostly what we refer to as nations are really really large groupings of tribes, or remnants of several tribes, where the survivors of war melded together (and even then, frequently don't like each other all that much).  Antagonism of others, starting fights or wars, seems to be a natural condition of monkeys as well as humans.  

Religion is just a really handy tool for agitators to get a lot more people involved, and has been well demonstrated to be a really handy way for some to get others to work and support them.  There always seem to be would be leaders who find the answer to their power wants in setting some against others.  There are never enough of those who desire peace to make peace happen . . . it would have to be a universal desire.  Just because some people desire peace, and strive hard to get it, makes no difference as to whether peace is to be had.  It takes only one side to make a war happen, just as it takes only one person to start a fight.  Whereas it is possible for an individual to run and hide, avoiding the bully, that is not in any way possible for a nation.  From what I have seen in history, the best way to have peace is to be obviously ready to go to war at a moments notice, demonstrating the will and means to do so.  It is certainly a costly way to go, and there is always the danger of some within your own group conjuring up some reason to go to war to satisfy their own ambitions, rather than to defend yourself, true, but that is what has to be dealt with.  If a nation is disarmed, that nation will soon be nothing but a note in history books, at best.   geek.gif





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