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Holes in the Pisco Valley


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#211    Orion von Koch

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Posted 24 February 2006 - 08:13 PM

By the by, I was 20 and working my way through college when I did this back in the 1960s.

See again.

For one who once made holes just like it for the US Geological Survey, I cannot let it go. They are ancient and they were used to determine the "below ground" data. It gave them a picture of what goodies were down there for mining. Today, one of the world's largest Zink mine operation is moving in that direction at that very location. Soon the holes will be gone and no one will ever know just how advanced the beings were who made those holes. The drilling rig must have been pneumatic and was seven or eight units across about a meter from each other. Like the two unit device I once saw in use, it left a hole about one meter deep due to cave-in. The data extracted via the drills gave us readings on minerals and voids for future mining. I believe those holes are extremely ancient since the topology of the land seemed to have changed. Also, if the ancients knew a comet was about to impact the Earth and they wanted to have some determination as to how it would change the surface, they could return to a known pattern and see the exaggeration of each hole and be able to determine the magnitude of the impact. The catastrophe might have been so devastating that they were never able to return to the site in that technological era. Of course someone made the lines at Nazca and for one who was a surveyor, I know that no ancient savage could shoot a line so straight for eight miles without a laser...and behind that laser was a platform with a computer controlling its shot. They are messages from the past and we are so dense as not to see them for what they are.



#212    capeo

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Posted 24 February 2006 - 08:30 PM

Quote


By the by, I was 20 and working my way through college when I did this back in the 1960s.

See again.

For one who once made holes just like it for the US Geological Survey, I cannot let it go. They are ancient and they were used to determine the "below ground" data. It gave them a picture of what goodies were down there for mining. Today, one of the world's largest Zink mine operation is moving in that direction at that very location. Soon the holes will be gone and no one will ever know just how advanced the beings were who made those holes. The drilling rig must have been pneumatic and was seven or eight units across about a meter from each other. Like the two unit device I once saw in use, it left a hole about one meter deep due to cave-in. The data extracted via the drills gave us readings on minerals and voids for future mining. I believe those holes are extremely ancient since the topology of the land seemed to have changed. Also, if the ancients knew a comet was about to impact the Earth and they wanted to have some determination as to how it would change the surface, they could return to a known pattern and see the exaggeration of each hole and be able to determine the magnitude of the impact. The catastrophe might have been so devastating that they were never able to return to the site in that technological era. Of course someone made the lines at Nazca and for one who was a surveyor, I know that no ancient savage could shoot a line so straight for eight miles without a laser...and behind that laser was a platform with a computer controlling its shot. They are messages from the past and we are so dense as not to see them for what they are.


The romans shot lines over hill and valley for 50 miles using a cross-shaped plumb line.  Straight lines are ridiculously easy to make and piece of twine, a stone, and a couple sticks.  What factual evidence leads you to the assumption that something more than these well-known and simple methods that were available weren't used in lieu of some high technology of which there is no archeological evidence of?

The Nazca drawings have been replicated twice now by two independent scholars using sticks and twine and employing a grid system the Nazca employed in their impressive mastery of weaving.  The sticks they used to layout the designs have been found on site as well as evidence of smaller images next to the larger to scale off of somewhat like a panagraph.  A couple other scholars believe they used a different system of scaling than gridding but equally prosaic and neither imply the use of any high technology.  Finally, the Nazca were far ancient savages and its rather repugnant of you to suggest so.

Oh, also, the topology of the land couldn't have changed drastically or the holes wouldn't be there.  Again, please provide evidence of the claims, as in the geology of the area for the last 10,000 years as i'm sure it's had no upheaval in that time (or for a million years before that for that matter).  I'll find you the Nazca studies in a sec and post them.

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#213    capeo

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Posted 24 February 2006 - 09:01 PM

An astronomer and a group from Earthwatch made a straight line with sticks and string the ended it in a spiral with the same simple tools:

http://www.astronomy.pomona.edu/archeo/andes/nazca.main.html

Joe Nickell recreates a scale representation:

http://www.onagocag.com/nazca.html

And see I almost got sidetracked.  The holes, what evidence is there to support the need for high technology to create them rather than normal stoneworking techniques used in making granaries and post holes?

"Come down off the cross, we could use the wood." - Tom Waits

#214    aquatus1

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Posted 24 February 2006 - 09:50 PM

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Argumentum ad hominem or refutation of the man and what he/she stands for as a character issue in the arena of ideas.  This fallacy is usually used to defuse the character of an opponent and position them as less desirable than the attacker. This method is used to poison the well of an opponent with information that is usually fallacious. If he has been wrong in the past, he is sure to be wrong now. Positioning of dirty laundry in the arena of ideas. When attacked by the ad hominem methodology, many come back with the old What about your stance or tu quoquo.


My stance is that you claimed the holes in the ground where made by advanced drilling and mining equipment and instead of answering why it could not have been done with the same techniques that the locals used in their other constructions, you launched into the same post you posted in the previous page, and in another thread where you accused me of leveraging from ignorance.

Orion, You are the only one here engaging in ad hominen attacks.  Do you wish for me to do so as well?  I would be happy to.  Do I think you are a credible source of knowledge?  No, I do not, because you claim in one instance to be a retired teacher and therefore are under no obligation to explain what you say, and then in another instance you claim that you have students that display the properties you speak of.  You ask basic questions about geology and then claim to work for the U.S. Geologic Survey.  You claim to be a surveyor, yet claim it is imposible to shoot a straight line without a computer assisted laser.

Those are ad hominem attacks.  Those are attacks aimed at a person rather than their arguments.  Are such things always invalid?  Not at all.  An ad hominem attack is only invalid if it bases its entire point on subjects that do not have anything to do with the topic at hand.  If I were to say "Orion failed math class", that would be an invalid attack, because I am attempting to cast doubt on your credibility in a subject that has nothing to do with the topic.  If, on the other hand, you base your claim on your authorization as a professional, for instance, as a surveyor claiming that one cannot shoot a line without a laser, then anyone would be fully justified to present evidence to the contrary and use this against you precisely because you presented yourself as an integral part of the argument.  In other words, you cannot use yourself as a source, and then whine about getting attacked when someone counters your claim.  If you are at the core of the argument, then an ad hominem attack (as long as it pertains to the topic), is valid.

So, ad hominem aside, let's assume for the sake of this arguement that you are without a flaw in your credibility:  Can you please explain why these holes would have to be made using modern drilling equipment as opposed to the same tools the locals used for everything else they made?




#215    Orion von Koch

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Posted 24 February 2006 - 09:54 PM

Tight!

Methods of Leveraging the Human Mind for Political Power and Control

Primary source: The Cambridge Dictionary of Philosophy.

Informal fallacy is an error of reasoning or a method of hoodwinking an unknowing audience or group. It is often a method of verbal acrobatics to persuade audiences that through reasoning and argument an issue can be correct, when upon evaluation it is not correct but a lie.  This is a means of hyping an issue and spinning it as a truth. Still, it is a lie.

Genetic fallacy is a means of persuading individuals upon the goodness or badness of an issue by using something unrelated but similar by showing the goodness or badness of the issue. A genetic fallacy is often used with a personal attack and serves to reinforce a lie. It will be used to condemn a prior thesis by condemning the base source as the point where an issue goes wrong. The base source may not have any relationship to the end product.

Argumentum ad populum or argument to the crowd or people is a prime example of the statement that everybody is doing it. It is also a statement that is the appeal to the gallery for support of its contention. Some say this is not unlike the mob appeal. What goes wrong with this argument is when exaggeration of the crowd is hyped beyond its real scope. Mass enthusiasm via cheerleading can be a lie when evidence shows the impetus was created by coercion rather than genuine appeal. Many call this the bandwagon effect.

Argumentum ad misericordiam is a methodology used with heaps of pity and emotional blackmail for an apparent wrong done to persons when in essence the facts do not support a need for such high levels of compassion.  Using emotionalism to pressure an audience for a weak case is often called false witness for high benefit. Many times it is in reality a threat of becoming miserable or worse to force an issue. Some will even threaten suicide or in a laughing manner say something is to die for. It is an effort to position others as mean and wrong for creating miserable conditions for the one who is threatening.  Others may use this method to point up the plight of a constituency to leverage for a change in political behaviorůsuch as asking for tolerance when it already exists.

Fallacy of construction or composition of issues is a means of arguing from the make up of parts that have no relationship to the whole. But, by virtue of known parts the whole should follow.

Fallacy of division is the opposite of the above. It is arguing from the whole and its image to portraying the whole as the part when the part has no overall relationship to the results of the whole.

The fallacy of false cause also called post hoc, ergo propter hoc (after this, therefore because of this). The wrong in this argument is the weight given the causal condition. The quantification and formula may be coincidence and outside sources might cause the coincidence. At times, a third party is hidden and may be the ultimate source of the cause.

The fallacy of secundum quid or arguing from a general condition to a specific outcome or again it is also known as the fallacy of accidental relationships. It is also know as the argument of hasty generalizations where a specific condition is apparent.

Argumentum consensus gentium or the argument of all nations or sources for a point of agreement. This argument is typically utilized by the scientific community when they are presenting a theory about some topic. It is usually an assumption rather than a proven fact though many scientists support the concept. Everyone believes this statement therefore it must be true. Its best utilization is as a point of departure for a later proven fact.



#216    Orion von Koch

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Posted 24 February 2006 - 10:02 PM

If one would review this post, I have claimed nothing about these holes. I have stated that they look strange and gave my experiences in finding holes 1/4the the size as these. I did indeed speculate on what I thing the holes mean and invited discussion. I do still claim that no one can shoot a line as straight as those on the Nazca without the technology to do so. Technology that was absent those poor folks who have been given credit for such. The Romans diviated from one foot to four feet doing their fine work within the same number of miles.

Other than that, I have invited discussion. You two went a little further than that. Get you facts right please.


#217    Orion von Koch

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Posted 24 February 2006 - 10:03 PM

My editing still does not work...it should read think not thing.


#218    capeo

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Posted 24 February 2006 - 10:05 PM

This is a waste of time.  Keep copying and pasting away, O.  I'll be elsewhere seeking an actual debate.

Edit: NOW you respond!  Ok strike the above.  Did you read my links of people that have already accomplished a similar feat?  Smaller scale but the technique works.  Poles and rope can accomplish it, especially if you used sighting poles the entire time.  The Nazca lines show some deviation, they're not absolutely perfect.  I can find stats on that actually and I'll post them.  Why, may I ask, do you keep insisting that the Nazca civilization was not highly developed when it obviously was.  Their weaving techniques alone were fantastically complex and still admired today.  At the same time, you insist they were possessed of high technology.  How is this reconciled?

Edited by capeo, 24 February 2006 - 10:17 PM.

"Come down off the cross, we could use the wood." - Tom Waits

#219    Orion von Koch

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Posted 24 February 2006 - 10:07 PM

Are you a surveyor? I do not think so. If it is so easy, why are we so silly as to use laser technology to shoot just a few feet? Why don't we use sticks and rocks since it is so percise. Sorry, It does not follow. Non Sequiturs all the way.


#220    Orion von Koch

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Posted 24 February 2006 - 10:09 PM

Are you a surveyor? I do not think so. If it is so easy, why are we so silly as to use laser technology to shoot just a few feet? Why don't we use sticks and rocks since it is so percise. Sorry, It does not follow. Non Sequiturs all the way.


#221    capeo

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Posted 24 February 2006 - 10:22 PM

Quote


Are you a surveyor? I do not think so. If it is so easy, why are we so silly as to use laser technology to shoot just a few feet? Why don't we use sticks and rocks since it is so percise. Sorry, It does not follow. Non Sequiturs all the way.



You can't really expect an answer as to why we today use an available method that is simpler, reliable and more exacting than past methods.  That's not a non sequitur.  Apply common sense, the answer is in the first sentence.

"Come down off the cross, we could use the wood." - Tom Waits

#222    aquatus1

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Posted 24 February 2006 - 11:32 PM

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If one would review this post, I have claimed nothing about these holes. I have stated that they look strange and gave my experiences in finding holes 1/4the the size as these. I did indeed speculate on what I thing the holes mean and invited discussion.


Speculate?

Quote

They are ancient and they were used to determine the "below ground" data. It gave them a picture of what goodies were down there for mining.
...
The drilling rig must have been pneumatic and was seven or eight units across about a meter from each other.
...
Of course someone made the lines at Nazca and for one who was a surveyor, I know that no ancient savage could shoot a line so straight for eight miles without a laser...and behind that laser was a platform with a computer controlling its shot. They are messages from the past and we are so dense as not to see them for what they are.


Okay, allright, you speculated.  I asked you, for the sake of discussion, why the rig must have been pneumatic and laser guided.  You did not continue the discusion.  If you wish to discuss it, let's discuss it:  Why could the holes not have been made with hammer and chisel?

For God's sake, please don't post another copy about leveraging, or fallacies, or whatnot.  If you can't answer the question and just wish to label it your opinion, just say so and be done with it.



#223    Orion von Koch

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Posted 26 February 2006 - 12:43 AM

Because they are too consistent and we have never found the tool marks suggesting they were hand made. They look pneumatic. I am wondering why we have not investigated these holes over the past years. There is very little about them and that is why I asked about them to determine more information that might be out there somewhere. Why? Why, have we not looked at this and said what is it? But, tell me, why do you think someone got down in the holes with you method and worked for a long distance doing 7 or 8 holes across for such a distance in those very ancient times? Why?


#224    Orion von Koch

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Posted 26 February 2006 - 12:53 AM

Good bye all, I have what I need. You all have been wonderful.


#225    aquatus1

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Posted 26 February 2006 - 04:23 PM

Quote


Because they are too consistent and we have never found the tool marks suggesting they were hand made.


Is this more speculation?  I haven't found anything about these holes that indicate they don't have the same construction marks as everything else.

Quote

They look pneumatic. I am wondering why we have not investigated these holes over the past years. There is very little about them and that is why I asked about them to determine more information that might be out there somewhere. Why? Why, have we not looked at this and said what is it?


My guess is that no one thinks there is anything worth learning about these holes.  After all, when all is said and done, unless more evidence turns up, we really have very little to go on.  How the heck are you going to convince a grant comittee to further fund your research if there is nothing you can present to them that would indicate you are on the verge of making some discovery?

Quote

But, tell me, why do you think someone got down in the holes with you method and worked for a long distance doing 7 or 8 holes across for such a distance in those very ancient times? Why?


Honestly?  I haven't a clue?  People do weird things.  Let's assume that they were not grainaries, or graves, or any of the other explanations we have come across here.  Well, perhaps they were defensive positions.  Perhaps they were the foundational begining of a new complex.  Perhaps they were the life long project of a single obsessive compulsive individual, such as Coral Castle in Florida.  There are several hundreds of utterly banal explanations, from the impressive to the utterly inexplicable for the existance of these holes, and none of them require venturing into the realm of anachronistic science.







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