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Gnosticisim and the Gnostic Gospels


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#16    EmpressV

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Posted 19 August 2005 - 12:46 PM

QUOTE(Lamont Cranston @ Aug 18 2005, 07:48 AM)
Yep, I've noticed  yes.gif - Christianity is dying everywhere but in the third world nations. yes.gif   Europe is for all intents and purposes a secular continent (even Italy has an extremely large secular population), Canada and the United States have seen the percentage of the population that claims Christianity fall from 87% in 1980 to 61% in 2005.  thumbsup.gif  Most of Asia has never been Christian, Christianity is growning in parts of Africa, but so is Islam. thumbdown.gif Central and South America have never really been Christian, although they pay lip service to Catholicism.  Their brand of Catholicism is actually a mixture of the various Native American (Red Indian to our Brit, Aussie, and Kiwi friends) religions married to a framework of Catholic Christianity.   blink.gif We will probably see an Africa with a Strong Fundamentalist Christian  population struggling with an equally Strong Islamic population within 2 decades.   ohmy.gif We will see a mainly secular North America and Europe  thumbsup.gif with a Muslim Middle East  no.gif (relax, their time will also come to die out) and a largely secular Asia (many of the so-called religions of Asia are more philosophies than religions).  Probably within 3 decades no one will even remember Enoch, Daniel or even the so-called Holy Scriptures of the Christians. thumbup.gif  That is how things are changing!  Which means your opinion is just that, and personal opinion that few if any share.   rolleyes.gif

 



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#17    antiaging

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Posted 20 August 2005 - 10:17 PM

QUOTE(JohnnyBoyC @ Aug 15 2005, 08:19 PM)
I have read SOME of the Gospel of Thomas. Some things in it are wise and some... are against fundamental Christianity. For those who do not know. The Gnostic Gospels never ONCE mention Jesus Divinity, they focus on the HUMAN qualities.

The Gnostic Gospels



The Gospel of Thomas

The Gospel of Philip

The Gospel of Truth

The Gospel to the Egyptians

The Apocalypse of Peter

The Apocalypse of Paul

The Letter of Peter to Philip

The Thunder, Perfect Mind

The Testimony of Truth


Ok, so in my sig we see a phrase I recently read from the Gospel of Thomas, it is very wise, and was allegedly stated by Jesus.

If you want to read them...

The Gospel of Thomas

The Gospel of Philip

Ill add more later I have to go...

My question is, what are the credibility of these scrolls dug up in Egypt, that were allegedly concealed from Constantine, to preserve "Truth"

BTW These are also mknown together as "The Gnostic Bible" or more scientfically, "The Nag Hammadi Scrolls"

 



THEY ARE FORGERIES. They were not written by the authors that they pretend to be written by. The gnostics were heretics that did not believe in the trinity and did not believe in the divinity of Jesus Christ. They also are the ones responsible for corrupting the Old and New Testament manuscripts that come from Alexandria Egypt. They added, deleted, or changed about 5% of the scriptures. That is why the real bible, the King James version, disagrees with the corrupted modern bibles in about 5% of the places.-- the corrupted Alexandrian text is mixed in the modern bibles.
Gnosticism evolved into what today is known as the universalist unitarian church.



#18    Something Like Laughter

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Posted 21 August 2005 - 12:27 AM

QUOTE
If you want to read them...

The Gospel of Thomas

The Gospel of Philip

Ill add more later I have to go...
i think all of them have english translations availiable on www.earlychristianwritings.com

QUOTE
My question is, what are the credibility of these scrolls dug up in Egypt, that were allegedly concealed from Constantine, to preserve "Truth"
most of them cannot be dated earlier than the 2nd century and lack much support from the early church fathers.

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#19    iaapac

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Posted 21 August 2005 - 12:38 AM

QUOTE(Ashley-Star*Child @ Aug 17 2005, 04:50 AM)
Ashley's dictionary:

Gnosticm:

1. A degenerate collection of utter tripe created as an aftermath for those who did not believe in divinity and believed God was evil, and that satan had rescued them by teacing them 'knowledge' through the temptation of Eve freeing them of the 'evil' Yahweh.

2. Utterly uninformed and majorly a Gentile creation. Confuses 'knowledge' of Tree in Eden with the reality of the matter which was in fact mortality for a second created angel whom death would never have touhced.

3. Crap, crap, and once more, crap.

grin2.gif

 





I consider this a degenerate description rather than the gnostic works being a degenerate collection.  The truth is that many of the early fathers used the gnostic writings as references in their sermons and, Jerome, for example, considered many of them far more holy than those selected to be in the Bible.

And what is this about these being a "Gentile creation?"  Nothing could be father from the truth.  Many of the works gathered in gnostic writings are written in poetic forms and represent Jewish, Christian, Hermetic, Mandaean, Manichaean, Islamic, and Cathar expressions of gnostic spirituality. Their regions of origin include Egypt, the Greco-Roman world, the Middle East, Syria, Iraq, China, and France.

Even at the Council of Nicaea, many of the gnostic writings were considered to be holy and inspired.


#20    Ashley-Star*Child

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Posted 21 August 2005 - 08:38 AM

Gnosticism was never considered 'holy and inspired'. And while there may have been a form of 'Jewish Gnosticism' it was, by and by, a majorly (you really should read EVERY word in a post) 'Gentile Creation'. Do you believe satan saved you? blink.gif Eh, someone had a sense of dark humour.

As for the comment on the decline in belief in God, what on Earth does that have to do with what I was talking about? Please tell me that's not the best comeback you can come up with. If there is a decline, it's because many things have become corrupted and thereby so has understanding. How many religions are there today? Every single one of them claiming to be right and better than the other and yet not one of them has the full story.


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#21    Lamont Cranston

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Posted 22 August 2005 - 11:24 AM

QUOTE
They were not written by the authors that they pretend to be written by.

The same could be said about the gospels and all but five of Paulís letters!  happy.gif
QUOTE
They also are the ones responsible for corrupting the Old and New Testament manuscripts that come from Alexandria Egypt. They added, deleted, or changed about 5% of the scriptures

Yet the non-Gnostic Christians changed the NT for the first  200 - 300 years for political purposes, as can be evidenced by the 4th century bibles that exist in the Vatican and the Monastery in Sinai.  wink2.gif
QUOTE
That is why the real bible, the King James version, disagrees with the corrupted modern bibles in about 5% of the places

I love how Christians loathe Gays, yet it was a Gay (Queen James was his nickname with the citizens of England) that had the bible version they love translated!  Hilarious! grin2.gif
QUOTE
most of them cannot be dated earlier than the 2nd century and lack much support from the early church fathers.

To repeat myself neither can the gospels and all but five of Paulís letters. no.gif
QUOTE
Do you believe satan saved you?

Nope and I donít believe that your god could either.  That which does not exist can not perform any actions. rolleyes.gif



"In those parts of the world where learning and science has prevailed, miracles ceased; but in those parts that are barbarous and ignorant, miracles are still in vogue." - Ethan Allen

#22    Something Like Laughter

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Posted 22 August 2005 - 09:24 PM

QUOTE
Yet the non-Gnostic Christians changed the NT for the first 200 - 300 years for political purposes, as can be evidenced by the 4th century bibles that exist in the Vatican and the Monastery in Sinai.
then you shouldnt have any trouble producing significant doctrinal differences between Codex Vaticanus and Codex Sinaiticus (the two i think you are referring to in that post) and lets say the Textus Receptus that the KJV was translated from. ill be waiting.

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#23    Lamont Cranston

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Posted 22 August 2005 - 09:33 PM

Not worried about the docrinal difference between the two 4th century codex and the textus...by the time the 4th century books were produced the docrine was established, yes.gif  it was what came before...we have nothing but incomplete fragments that are older blink.gif .  Would like an explanation of why the KJV Mark is longer than that of the 4th century Codex. whistling2.gif

"In those parts of the world where learning and science has prevailed, miracles ceased; but in those parts that are barbarous and ignorant, miracles are still in vogue." - Ethan Allen

#24    Something Like Laughter

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Posted 23 August 2005 - 02:03 AM

ah, so you've got nothing besides speculation. why am i not surpised?

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#25    Lamont Cranston

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Posted 23 August 2005 - 11:53 AM

I think a version of Mark that is 11 verses shorter than the present version, huh.gif  that cuts off with the empty tomb (remember this is the first gospel, the one that Matthew and Luke copied from) that totally skips the ascension and the proclaimation to go forth and convert the world, rolleyes.gif is just a wee tad more than speculation  thumbsup.gif .  Without older versions to check we can only speculate, but the smoking gun is there, isn't it  yes.gif ?  Besides, you are only speculating that your God even exists, you have less proof of that than I do of an altered NT!   tongue.gif

"In those parts of the world where learning and science has prevailed, miracles ceased; but in those parts that are barbarous and ignorant, miracles are still in vogue." - Ethan Allen

#26    Loge

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Posted 26 August 2005 - 09:57 PM

QUOTE
The sage is often envied
because others do not know
that although he is nourished by the Tao,
like them, he too is mortal.

He who seeks wisdom is well advised
to give up academic ways,
and put an end to striving.
Then he will learn that yes and no
are distinguished only by distinction.

It is to the advantage of the sage
that he does not fear what others fear,
but it is to the advantage of others
that they can enjoy the feast,
or go walking, free of hindrance,
through the terraced park in spring.

The sage drifts like a cloud,
having no specific place.
Like a newborn babe before it smiles,
he does not seek to communicate.
In the eyes of those
who have more than they need,
the sage has nothing, and is a fool,
prizing only that which of the Tao is born.

The sage may seem to be perplexed,
being neither bright nor clear,
and to himself, sometimes he seems
both dull and weak, confused and shy.
Like the ocean at night,
he is serene and quiet,
but as penetrating as the winter wind.



And he that overcomes, and keeps my works unto the end, to him will I give him (Lucifer) the morning star.

#27    Kit Walker

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Posted 28 August 2005 - 03:25 PM

I see no answer for Lamont Cranston's question on Mark.  It seems to be a good question and throws a big question on whether the New Testament was changed and changed again and again, before Christianity became the main religion of the old days.  No answer must mean that he won?

God found out about the Trinity in 325 A.D.

#28    Something Like Laughter

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Posted 03 September 2005 - 03:52 AM

QUOTE
No answer must mean that he won?
nah, just means school has a nasty habit of cutting into the time i care to spend here.

QUOTE
Would like an explanation of why the KJV Mark is longer than that of the 4th century Codex.
some scribe in byzantium/constantinople decided on making mark end like matt and luke.
QUOTE
that totally skips the ascension and the proclaimation to go forth and convert the world
so? these two can be found in other places that arent subject to any controversy concerning the correct reading.
QUOTE
Besides, you are only speculating that your God even exists, you have less proof of that than I do of an altered NT!
you're pretty good at burning strawmen, you must get a lot of practice.
QUOTE
Without older versions to check we can only speculate, but the smoking gun is there, isn't it
only if new, older manuscripts start being dug up.
QUOTE
Not worried about the docrinal difference between the two 4th century codex and the textus
then perhaps let me rephrase my request. find an example of a malicious corruption of the text that survived to make it into modern Bibles.

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#29    seanph

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Posted 12 September 2005 - 02:25 PM

QUOTE
That is why the real bible, the King James version, disagrees with the corrupted modern bibles in about 5% of the places.-- the corrupted Alexandrian text is mixed in the modern bibles.


This is a joke, right?  Please say yes!  huh.gif  ohmy.gif

Please read "The Gnostic Gospels" by Elaine Pagels (Harrington Spear Paine Professor of Religion at Princeton University) if you want to learn something about Gnosticism.  Considered one of the best books on the subject.

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detai...=glance&s=books

Edited by seanph, 12 September 2005 - 02:32 PM.

"Any religion whose prerequisites for individual salvation donít conduce to the salvation of the whole world is a religion whose time has passed."--Robert Wright, The Evolution of God




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