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Heaven and Hell?


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#16    Sherapy

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Posted 16 August 2005 - 09:44 PM

QUOTE(101 @ Aug 16 2005, 12:55 PM)
You have to have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ and do good deeds. Not killing people or other things. And if you do kill someone you can be forgiven if you ask God.

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101 can you explain how you have a personal relationship with Jesus and why, What good deeds and how are they accounted for??  Namaste sheri




#17    Biggus

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Posted 16 August 2005 - 10:48 PM

QUOTE
So if we have a primitive tribe of cannibals who terrorize all other tribes and kill as many as they can, they will go to heaven because they never heard of God?


No, when they are judged, they will be held account for the actions which they have commited on Earth, the same as everyone else who has ever lived. If theyhave lived good lives, then they will be judged accordingly, if they have lived bad lives, and transgressed many of Gods laws, then thay will also be judged accordingly.

QUOTE
Babys cannot go to Hell because they know no God because they aren't able to fully comprerhend it.


to quote from Matthew 18:3, "unless you are converted and become as little children, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven." It is worth noting here that Jesus is speaking to his disciples, so they are judged more stringently than the cannibals, having full knowledge of God and Jesus.

QUOTE
A person who has never heard of God will not go to Hell because they cannot be judged on something they never heard of.


My interpretation is that they would be judged on their actions, irrespective of wether or not they had heard of God.

Ha ha ha!

#18    Watzel

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Posted 17 August 2005 - 12:21 AM

The more that is said here the more insane it gets. hmm.gif

If you were God would you blame a person for how they turn out in life when it was you that placed them in the life they had to endure?  
It is easy to say that you have a personal relationship with Jesus when your life is so comfortable.
Try to imagine you were born poor, ugly, have abusive uneducated parents, have a low IQ, parents that teach you to hate and blame all your problems on others. You can't get through school with all the crap going on at home.  You drop out of school. You have a friend that talks you into robbing a house and you get caught and go to jail. In jail you are beaten and raped by other inmates. You get out and both your parents have died from drugs and you have no place to live. You take drugs because you aren't strong enough to take all the hardship in life you are dealing with.  You rob and accidently kill a person for a few bucks to buy more drugs. You get caught and go to prison for life.  In prison you have a choice to be tough or get raped and used by other inmates.

What I describe has happened and is happening every day in the world. These people are thought of as the worst of the worst.

Now try to talk to that person about how much God loves you. From their point of view, life is hell already. They will ask you why God gave them such a hard life that is almost a sure road to this hell in the afterlife according to the Bible.

Trouble is that religion doesn't take into account all the factors that can make a person become bad. And if you think that it wouldn't happen to you then you are right, and you are also lucky enough to be born with all the chances that some poor ol' guy in prison didn't have.

So logically, God must not be the kind of God that the Bible portrays. Because a loving God would not treat one of it's creation that way. Not a God that says we are all his children.
Then the answer must logically be something else. The answer is, we choose the life we live. We choose to learn from life even when we know it will be very hard. Some souls are brave enough to pick the hardest lives to live on earth. We agree with God that God will not interfere with our life unless we pray for assistance. We come here not to pass a test to see if we can be good enough to go to heaven, but to learn all that life has to offer, good or bad.  Think of it as the ultimate amusement ride.   w00t.gif


#19    StalingradK

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Posted 17 August 2005 - 01:17 PM

This is what purgatory is for, a chance to redeem yourself, do you think Earth is a purgatory? And that you just die and be reincarnated until you go to heaven or go to hell because you have done something unforgivable?

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#20    101

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Posted 17 August 2005 - 01:49 PM

QUOTE(Sheri berri @ Aug 16 2005, 09:44 PM)
QUOTE(101 @ Aug 16 2005, 12:55 PM)
You have to have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ and do good deeds. Not killing people or other things. And if you do kill someone you can be forgiven if you ask God.

View Post




101 can you explain how you have a personal relationship with Jesus and why, What good deeds and how are they accounted for??  Namaste sheri

View Post



To have a personal relationship with God you have to ask him to come into your heart and forgive you of your sins. To strengthen this relationship you read the Bible. Thirdly good deeds would be charity work,taking care of a sick freind,turning the other cheek(avoid fighting)

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#21    Biggus

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Posted 17 August 2005 - 05:14 PM

QUOTE
Try to imagine you were born poor, ugly, have abusive uneducated parents, have a low IQ, parents that teach you to hate and blame all your problems on others.


I'm obviously glad that you think that all Christians are rich, good looking, intelligent people with loving families, but sadly that's not always the case. Personally, I'm rather poor, but instead of blaming my problems on others, I'm seeking ways to better myself, for the betterment of me and my family.

QUOTE
If you were God would you blame a person for how they turn out in life when it was you that placed them in the life they had to endure?
It is easy to say that you have a personal relationship with Jesus when your life is so comfortable.


Ah yes, but God makes allowances for this also, as shown in Luke 16:19-23, where Lazarus (a beggar) dies and is permitted to enter the Kingdom of Heaven, whereas a rich man who dies at the same time is cast into Hell for his deeds while on Earth.

QUOTE
Because a loving God would not treat one of it's creation that way.


All of the problems which you have described are problems of society, which is the work of man. God doesn't run a capitaist state which rewards those who are born with money, but we do. God doesn't force people to take drugs, humans force them on each other.

QUOTE
The answer is, we choose the life we live.


Exactly. And it is for the actions which we commit in our life that we will be held account to on the Day of Judgement, and which will ultimately determine your final fate.

Ha ha ha!

#22    bacca

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Posted 17 August 2005 - 06:49 PM

Heaven would be for all those who deserved it, no great need to know jesus or accept him as your saviour......to go on this theory how do you know which god is the right one? which religion is the right one? the insanity is that everyone is going to go i'm right because the bible said so the fact that the bible can't be proven accept for them to say it's about faith....well what about other kinds of faith? what about faith in oneself for those of us who don't need an organization to belong to as to not backslide into sinful ways  laugh.gif  what about the people who follow budda or allah? are they going to hell because they are not christian? by a christians standards the answer is yes.....Heaven doesn't really have some big way to get in it just has big ways to be kept out and that would be choosing to go the other way i would think. Those who flat out say i want to go the other way and yes there are people out there who would go there......if there were a god i would hope he is truly like a good father who doesn't judge or get jealous or envious or upset there is no taking away his love no matter what you do.......thats how a parent should be anyway hmm.gif

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#23    Biggus

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Posted 17 August 2005 - 09:01 PM

QUOTE
Heaven would be for all those who deserved it, no great need to know jesus or accept him as your saviour......to go on this theory how do you know which god is the right one? which religion is the right one?


Well, if you believe in God, then you won't believe in any other 'gods'.

QUOTE
what about faith in oneself for those of us who don't need an organization to belong to as to not backslide into sinful ways  what about the people who follow budda or allah? are they going to hell because they are not christian?


One at a time, one at a time!
It doesn't matter who you are, where you are from, your skin colour, height or anything else. The only thing which counts is your actions on Earth. Buddhists and Muslims who have made a conscious decision to turn their back on God have made that decision, and will be judged accordingly. People who are born into backgrounds where they may be co-erced into joining other religions will be judged less rigerously. People born into predominantly Christian society can expect to be judged harshest of all, by virtue of having every opportunity to become acquainted with God, but rejecting Him at every turn.

QUOTE
Heaven doesn't really have some big way to get in it just has big ways to be kept out and that would be choosing to go the other way i would think.


Two things to remember :

i-love the Lord with all your heart.
ii-love your neighbour as yourself.
There is no other commandment greater than these.
(Mark 12:30-31)

QUOTE
if there were a god i would hope he is truly like a good father who doesn't judge or get jealous or envious or upset there is no taking away his love no matter what you do.......thats how a parent should be anyway


Have you never been upset with someone whom you have loved?

Ha ha ha!

#24    Watzel

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Posted 17 August 2005 - 09:02 PM

Biggus,
No I don't think all Christians are good looking, rich, intelligent with great families; you missed the point.

And you still think it is ok for God to cast a rich person in hell for their deeds. Everyone that you think deserves to go to hell may be looking down at you in hell for you thinking that way. Don't judge a persons life when you don't know how they got that way.  Some are weak and some are strong but they are all equally loved by God.


God is aware of all problems of society I'm sure.  You wanting to believe in a God that would force you to have a hard life just to see if you can keep yourself from going to hell sounds like when a kid puts salt on a slug just to watch it die a slow agonizing death.  Your God might do that, but not mine. We are not talking about the same God I think.

'The answer is we choose life.'  We choose our life from the afterlife, before we come down here to this world.  We are souls in the afterlife, or more correctly the before life, and we pick the life, the parents, the person to be, all of it before we are born in to the flesh.

Don't believe it?
Fine doesn't bother me in the slightest. But if you believe in something that is illogical then you better rethink what you know.


#25    Biggus

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Posted 17 August 2005 - 09:18 PM

QUOTE
And you still think it is ok for God to cast a rich person in hell for their deeds. Everyone that you think deserves to go to hell may be looking down at you in hell for you thinking that way. Don't judge a persons life when you don't know how they got that way. Some are weak and some are strong but they are all equally loved by God.


One thing I don't do is judge anyone, that's Gods work, not mine.

QUOTE
You wanting to believe in a God that would force you to have a hard life just to see if you can keep yourself from going to hell sounds like when a kid puts salt on a slug just to watch it die a slow agonizing death. Your God might do that, but not mine. We are not talking about the same God I think.


God doesn't force me to have a low paid job with no prospects, and to be poor forever, it's the society which man has created for itself which has done that.

On a tangent, there's more than enough food in the world to feed everyone, it's the way man chooses to distribute it which causes famines.

QUOTE
The answer is we choose life.' We choose our life from the afterlife, before we come down here to this world. We are souls in the afterlife, or more correctly the before life, and we pick the life, the parents, the person to be, all of it before we are born in to the flesh.

Don't believe it?
Fine doesn't bother me in the slightest. But if you believe in something that is illogical then you better rethink what you know.


You might be right, other than belief in God, which far from being illogical, is the most natural thing in the world to me.

The Bible doesn't mention specifically what state you exist in before you are born on a physical plane, to my knowledge anyway.

However, what happen if one person chooses a life where someone is their child, but the child doesn't want that person as their parent? Accordingly, people must choose to be born into lives of poverty, famine, war etc for whatever reasons. In fact, why aren't we all Mick Jagger?  unsure.gif  I'd love to be a rock superstar, so why didn't I choose to do that, instead of choosin a career in various minimum wage jobs? And what about all those horrible women on those morning chat shows who hate every single member of their family? Shouldn't we all be leading wonderful lives?

Ha ha ha!

#26    Dragonic Darkness

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Posted 17 August 2005 - 09:23 PM

Somethings are sort of confusing about the bible....... Like you are supposed to turn the other cheek right? Well what if some guy is gonna beat you up... I mean you can't let him disrespect your body like that, if he gave you a really bad beating he could mess up your body for life.

Also about lieing.... Does sarcasm count as a lie? And what if someone has an extremely weak heart and their mom dies.. What do you think is the right thing to do? Tell him the truth and have him dieing (which is sorta like killing him) or telling him his mom moved while he was sick?

Also what about people like me who DO'NT have religions but still believe strongly in god? Will we be cast to hell just because we do'nt have religions?


#27    101

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Posted 17 August 2005 - 09:28 PM

To get to my Heaven(christian) you must believe in the christian God. You don't let someone beat you up. You can defend your own but don't start fights.

Liers do not go to Heaven even if there are reasons behind it. you cannot hide the truth so do not try to.

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#28    bacca

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Posted 17 August 2005 - 09:30 PM

QUOTE(Dragonic Darkness @ Aug 17 2005, 05:23 PM)
Somethings are sort of confusing about the bible....... Like you are supposed to turn the other cheek right? Well what if some guy is gonna beat you up... I mean you can't let him disrespect your body like that, if he gave you a really bad beating he could mess up your body for life.

Also about lieing.... Does sarcasm count as a lie? And what if someone has an extremely weak heart and their mom dies.. What do you think is the right thing to do? Tell him the truth and have him dieing (which is sorta like killing him) or telling him his mom moved while he was sick?

Also what about people like me who DO'NT have religions but still believe strongly in god? Will we be cast to hell just because we do'nt have religions?

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it only gets worse when you realize that things like turning the other cheek was more likely an insult at the time not some sort of giving in or what not

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#29    Watzel

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Posted 17 August 2005 - 11:05 PM

IMO, the purpose of life is to learn. Think of all the things you have learned up to this point, the good and the bad.  If we all were born to be rock stars, and who hasn't wanted that, then you would learn less about suffering maybe but more about other things.  Maybe you would learn, after you grew old and wise, that you lived a selfish, egotistical, worthless life and squandered all your money on pleasure seeking when you could have helped many people in need. Of course they are not all like that thankfully.

I think Jesus may have tried to explain about being in the afterlife before being born into the flesh, but imagine how difficult it would be for people of that time to understand that concept when they couldn't even imagine that Jesus was the Son of God. Sounds like might I believe in the Bible? Yes and No. I believe parts of it hit on the truth, but for me, it is easy to see which parts were put there by man.

I just can't accept that God can be as harsh, unintelligent, contradictory and cruel as the Bible implies.

About liars going to hell.  If my child lies to me, I might make her understand how wrong it is but she/he will not go to hell if I have any say so. So knowing that God loves us more than we can love our own children I would say that we need to not worry so much about it. But it is probably not a good idea to practice lying anyway.


#30    DropCat

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Posted 19 August 2005 - 01:02 PM

QUOTE(101 @ Aug 18 2005, 07:28 AM)
To get to my Heaven(christian) you must believe in the christian God. You don't let someone beat you up. You can defend your own but don't start fights.

Liers do not go to Heaven even if there are reasons behind it. you cannot hide the truth so do not try to.

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So am i not going to heaven cause i lie. I am a Christian that believes in the Jesus, God
and the Bible and is not racist but because i lie im going hell. The reasons why i lie is because i dont want to make situation bigger than it already is. I dont lie to hurt other people's feeling but to help them and myself. An example is that 1 of my PS2 game's was taken from me and wont ever see it again cause im a quiet and small person and is scared to ask it back for the guy. If i lied at the beginning and said that i didnt have a PS2 he wouldnt have ask me for the game. (and thats just one of my reasons why i lie to people)

Edited by DropCat, 19 August 2005 - 01:11 PM.

BURNING BEFORE MY EYES




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