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God and the devil


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#16    hyperactive

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Posted 28 August 2005 - 03:37 PM

indeed mako!  i should clarify my previous response was with respect to the characters within the mythology alone, and not to suggest existance outside of it.  thumbsup.gif


"He who knows not and knows not he knows not, he is a fool - shun him.
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He who knows and knows that he knows, he is wise - follow him. "
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#17    Wingman

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Posted 28 August 2005 - 04:04 PM

God didn't "condemn" the devil, the devil chose to become the ruler of hell. I think he said "It is better to be king of hell, than servant of heaven".


#18    zandore

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Posted 28 August 2005 - 05:30 PM

QUOTE(~*S.T.R.*~ @ Aug 28 2005, 02:31 AM)
There has to be a balance...Ying-Yang...Good-Evil...Dark Light!

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With this comment you are saying that the Devil is just as powerful/knowing as god! equal to God.

"A man's ethical behavior should be based effectually on sympathy,
education, and social ties; no religious basis is necessary.
Man would indeed be in a poor way if he had to be restrained by fear
of punishment and hope of reward after death."

Albert Einstein


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#19    V for Vanity

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Posted 28 August 2005 - 05:45 PM

QUOTE(zandore @ Aug 28 2005, 05:30 PM)
QUOTE(~*S.T.R.*~ @ Aug 28 2005, 02:31 AM)
There has to be a balance...Ying-Yang...Good-Evil...Dark Light!

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With this comment you are saying that the Devil is just as powerful/knowing as god! equal to God.

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Isn't the Devil just as powerful as God though but in an evil way?


#20    zandore

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Posted 28 August 2005 - 06:12 PM

If you are a believer than they have power over you, If not then they are nothing more than just a myth.

Are you a believer?

"A man's ethical behavior should be based effectually on sympathy,
education, and social ties; no religious basis is necessary.
Man would indeed be in a poor way if he had to be restrained by fear
of punishment and hope of reward after death."

Albert Einstein


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#21    SoLLiZ

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Posted 28 August 2005 - 10:06 PM

QUOTE(hyperactive @ Aug 28 2005, 10:29 AM)
or, as i have postulated, the god of abraham is both the "god" and the "devil".  this is the only way for it to be all-powerful and complete.  Otherwise it is as incomplete (godwise) as a car with one wheel removed.

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this reminds me of some various gnostic groups, some felt that the god of the old testament was the devil, and that god in the new testament, was really god.

personally, i think it's basically myth anyway, i was just curious to hear what others had to say about the subject.

i do think it is pretty bad story telling over how much god has changed in the bible

in eden, he walked with man
he told moses (raised in all the ways of egypt) that his name was "i am" (a very egyptian response, since they thought knowing the god's true name could give you power over him)
he is vengeful and downright murderous in the old testament, but by the new testament he is friendly and all loving.

i guess character development is a recent aspect of story telling

and by the way, yes i drank way to much last night lol

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#22    Ashley-Star*Child

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Posted 29 August 2005 - 09:08 AM

QUOTE(SoLLiZ @ Aug 28 2005, 06:24 AM)
here's another thing that i wonder about

if god is all powerful, how could the devil even imagine revolting against him if he knew he would have no chance of winning.

if god is all knowing, why would he create lucifer

perhaps the devil works for god and isn't evil at all, he just brings some bad stuff into the mix so you can appreciate the good and so that there can be freewill.

any thoughts?

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Satanail was God's favorite angel, the angel given highest power by God. Satanail fell because of his own pride when he refused to bow down to Adam as all angels were instructed to do. He is, and his job is to be an accusing angel. What accusng angels do is test, tempt and accuse before God humans who have free will. God SENDS satan to test someone, as a test of that free will. God also says on numerous occasions that he controls both good and evil. He's also said 'there is no one at war with Me' and that was after satan's fall, and that there was no one who does not sumbit to Him.

'Evil' is quite misunderstood. Fallen angels fall because they don't have the free will to refuse God's command, and if they do so they become fallen and ARE punished in their own hells. However that fall doesn't always last forever. While no accusing angel - including satan, who with humanity as his reason, and most every other fallen angel's reason, for his fall, has a vendetta - is on humanity's 'side' and is therefore 'evil' to us they are still under God, and must obey God. In fact what satan wants, mor than anything else, is to be back in God's grace, just as every other fallen angel does.

If there were no accusing angels, there'd be no test of free will, ad as God said imself to Adam when He told him about his free will 'I will see who among your race will love or abhor Me'. In other words, dovotion of your own free will. Free will isn't really 'free' at all, it coms with tests of devotion and consequences.

Your last sentence is pretty much on the mark there. thumbsup.gif


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#23    Sisyphus

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Posted 31 August 2005 - 07:03 PM

Another topic where opinions vary.  I'm in the camp that God knew precisely what he was doing with Lucifer.  There was no revolt or rebellion.  Lucifer did not choose to go against God.  In fact he couldn't if he wanted to.  Men are unique creations under God in that they possess free will.  Angels do not.  Lucifer was the perfect angel created to love God alone and God absolutely.  His expulsion from Heaven was to serve the role of the yang crucial to the greater plan.  

   Of course this is bound by Christian dogma.  I like the version in the Persian myths where Satan is a scorned lover.  Ever have an ex you were in love with that kicked you out?  Something like that.


#24    Loge

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Posted 31 August 2005 - 08:21 PM

QUOTE(mako @ Aug 28 2005, 10:32 AM)
Using Occam's Razor, the simpliest answer is usually the correct answer, since there is no evidence for either god or the devil, they are nothing more than obsolete mythology that is slowing dying out.  yes.gif

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user posted image
Since there is no evidence for either god or the devil within Homers head, they are nothing more than obsolete mythology that is slowing dying out.  duh wacko.gif



And he that overcomes, and keeps my works unto the end, to him will I give him (Lucifer) the morning star.

#25    101

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Posted 31 August 2005 - 08:38 PM

I think Loge is right, because if Homer don't know. Well self explanatory. rolleyes.gif

Loge that is funny.  thumbsup.gif

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Just remember, you can do anything (that is physically possible) that you set your mind to.  All you have to do is believe in yourself.- Mako

#26    iaapac

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Posted 01 September 2005 - 01:14 AM

QUOTE(~*S.T.R.*~ @ Aug 28 2005, 04:01 AM)
You just answered your own question! LOL!
There has to be the option to choose your own destiny.  There has to be a balance...Ying-Yang...Good-Evil...Dark Light! He gave us the ability to choose wether we want to trust in him or not.  And by the way Lucifer was first an angel.  But I am sure with God being all knowing that he knew Lucifer was going to be a fallen angel before he even was!

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An option to choose your own destiny?  Then God is not all-knowing?  If He knows all things, he knows the events of your entire life, so is destiny only what God pre-wills?  And if that is the case, then free will cannot exist at all.



#27    iaapac

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Posted 01 September 2005 - 01:39 AM

Considering that the entire creation tale stems from earlier tales passed from generation to generation, the basic story of God and the Devil has most certainly been altered, added-to and contaminated.  It is interesting, however, that the Devil is hardly mentioned in the Old Testament but is inserted into the fire and brimstone rantings of New Testament zealots.  







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