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The Ghosts of Castello de la Rotta


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#1    schadeaux

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Posted 25 July 2003 - 03:58 PM

I'm no real fan of ghosts, but this one looked fairly cool.  

user posted image
In 1980, this photo was taken at the Castello de la Rotta in northern Italy. It is assumed to be that of a ghost called Arturo who was said to be skeletal in appearance, rode a phantom horse and had a heavy iron cross hung around his neck. Curiously, this photo was taken just a few days after excavations at the castle uncovered the remains of a horse and a man with a metal cross hung around his neck.

A little HISTORY of Castle de la Rotta, and a couple of other pics taken there.



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To think and not study is dangerous."
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#2    Althalus

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Posted 25 July 2003 - 04:08 PM

thats ceratinly an impressive picture, but whay would the ghost be skeletal, they are always fully fleshed.

"We make choices everyday, some of them good, some of them bad. And - if we are strong enough - we live with the consequences."
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#3    schadeaux

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Posted 25 July 2003 - 06:32 PM

QUOTE (Althalus @ Jul 25 2003, 09:08 AM)
but whay would the ghost be skeletal, they are always fully fleshed.

I think not always.  A lot of times they are robed or covered in some fashion, or their features are blurry or distorted, making it hard to tell what they actually look like.  Mayhap, over time, some spirits "forget" their true appearance, or are not fully aware that their appearance has altered.  Ever meet with someone you haven't seen in a couple of years and think "My, how you've changed!"  That person doesn't think so as much.  To them it's the same old face it has always been.

"To study and not think is a waste.
To think and not study is dangerous."
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#4    PurpleStuart

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Posted 25 July 2003 - 06:42 PM

QUOTE
Mayhap, over time, some spirits "forget" their true appearance, or are not fully aware that their appearance has altered. Ever meet with someone you haven't seen in a couple of years and think "My, how you've changed!" That person doesn't think so as much. To them it's the same old face it has always been.



I've not heard that theory before!
Interesting idea, don't think it's too likely but interesting nevertheless

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#5    PurpleStuart

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Posted 25 July 2003 - 06:44 PM

forgot to say - thats a great picture

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#6    Althalus

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Posted 25 July 2003 - 07:13 PM

I aggree it is an interesting idea, but why would the ghost appear as a skelton if they forget their appearence?  Surely it would just sag a bit or something?  

"We make choices everyday, some of them good, some of them bad. And - if we are strong enough - we live with the consequences."
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#7    dust19

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Posted 25 July 2003 - 07:22 PM

or would they 'morph' into the way they feel they would appear in their own mind? A more idealized self.


#8    Aslan

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Posted 25 July 2003 - 07:39 PM

Yes it's an interesting idea, isn't it. Why do some ghosts appear as they ostensibly did in life, and why do some appear in the guise of the lead beast in a B-movie teen horror? Four possibilities spring to mind.

Maybe we are generating the ghosts subconciously, and therefore they are culturally biased (medieval China, for example, was plagued by apparitions of beautiful women with their feet on fire; medieval Europe by figures draped in their funeral weeds - and never the twain did meet).

Or the ghosts are real but their appearance is culturally defined, the same way a Christian priest looks markedly different from a Muslim imam, but they are basically the same thing (crappy and contentious example I know - forgive me, I'm tired)

Or the ghosts are real but they can alter their appearance for some capricious reasons of their own.

Or a ghost's appearance does actually change over time (as schadeaux suggests) regardless of what the ghost would like to think, similar to people developing wrinkles and grey hair and whathaveyou.

I don't actually know what I think. As I say, it's an interesting question.


#9    Althalus

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Posted 25 July 2003 - 07:55 PM

I think it is more likely to be the second reason, they are real and it is the way we percieve them to look, that gives them form the way they have.

if someone is expecting a ghost to look like the painting of them then that is how hey would appear, but if there is no defined look for the ghost, then they are not visible. Only when people start to unconsciously visualise what it is supposed to look like does the ghost become manifest.

"We make choices everyday, some of them good, some of them bad. And - if we are strong enough - we live with the consequences."
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#10    schadeaux

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Posted 25 July 2003 - 08:04 PM

Althalus makes a very good point in this case.  The story says that the skeleton of "Arturo" and his horse were uncovered a couple of days before the first sighting.  Maybe that is why those that saw it perceived him as a skeletal figure.

But, why would he look like that on film?  Did the perception of the photographer (and those around him) imprint on the film?  Looked like a skeleton to me before I read the story.

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To think and not study is dangerous."
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#11    Aslan

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Posted 25 July 2003 - 08:13 PM

Yes, I think I agree with that.

It's a whole new can of worms we're opening, you realise. I mean, I imagine that plenty of people have seen a 'shadow being' without previously knowing what a 'shadow being' is supposed to look like. And the stories of ghosts whose identity has only been verified later are multitudinous - in the sense that someone sees a ghost which is unrecognisable to the viewer and only later does somebody point out that it had a facial scar in exactly the same place as uncle Harry. These ghosts are clearly not culturally defined.

Hmmm. Maybe culturally defined ghosts are the replay ghosts, and the 'discorporeal intelligences' are something else - ghosts with the ability to alter their appeareance. Obviously (obviously if we agree that there is some purpose behind a ghost) if they could do this they would want to appear to relatives and friends and ancestors in a form which allows them to be identified.

And a skeleton is a pretty good bet for a ghost who's out to frighten people for whatever reason. I used to work with a guy who frightened people by pretending to have a fit. He'd roll up his eyes and quiver. It was quite impressive. And people wear different clothes to project different impressions. Look at the affiliates of any major underground musical movement. I don't imagine ghosts are any less idiosyncratic when it comes to dealing with people.


EDIT: Sorry, It took me that long to write it that this post is in entirely the wrong spot in the thread.


#12    Althalus

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Posted 25 July 2003 - 08:13 PM

imposed thoughtography as well as a image that is  highly doubtful because of its looking like a skeleton (well the skull of one anyway).

It is looking highly likely to me that this one is fake, or at least very, very unusual.  

"We make choices everyday, some of them good, some of them bad. And - if we are strong enough - we live with the consequences."
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#13    Althalus

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Posted 25 July 2003 - 08:17 PM

replay ghosts are supposed to be the ones thast are imprinted on the surroundings as is, how they looked at rthe time of imprinting states what they appear as.

perhaps then that the ghost can sense somehow what we are thinking that it should look like and it alters its appearence accordingly.

"We make choices everyday, some of them good, some of them bad. And - if we are strong enough - we live with the consequences."
David Gemmell

#14    Aslan

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Posted 25 July 2003 - 08:27 PM

QUOTE
replay ghosts are supposed to be the ones thast are imprinted on the surroundings as is, how they looked at rthe time of imprinting states what they appear as.



Yes, I see what you mean, and I'm not quite prepared to dabble with notions of replay ghosts just yet.

But I still think the latter part of what I said holds water - that ghosts can be as idiosyncratic as anyone. I mean, they are a disembodied personalitys after all. Some days I wear my combat trousers, some days I wear my orange cords - that kind of thing.

If we agree that they actually are discorporeal intelligences, and we agree that they are capable of anything, psychically speaking, then we must surely agree that they could appear in any form that they see fit.



#15    schadeaux

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Posted 25 July 2003 - 08:39 PM

I found a place that gives some descriptions of different ghost and haunting catagories:

http://www.psychicalexplorers.com/hauntings.html

"To study and not think is a waste.
To think and not study is dangerous."
Confucius




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