[beyond_the _grave]

This caught my eye when i was surfing on the web what do you think of this?

In 1902, archaeologists unearthed the remains of the infamous city of Babylon, including its fabled Ishtar Gate. The Gate's most intruiging feature is a relief carved in the stone, depicting two creatures. The first -- called the Re'em -- was easily identified as the now extinct type of cattle called the urus, but the second creature -- the Sirrush -- wasn't so easily identified. With a long scaled body and tail, a long neck and lizard- or snake-like head, the Sirrush also claimed a rather unique feature -- bird-like feet on its hind legs. It was an odd looking creature by the standards of its 1902 discoverers, however we now know that several species of dinosaurs did indeed have bird-like feet.


Was the Dragon of the Ishtar Gate a relic dinosaur? Some think so, some don't. Did it even exist anywhere but in the minds Babylonian artists? As with all cryptids, this too is a point of contention.

In the late 1930s, a science writer by the name of Willie Ley began research the Sirrush in Babylonian art history, and found that not only does it appear in other works, but was actually a common feature of art spanning thousands of years. With the rumours of dinosaur-like creatures stalking the dark corners of Africa, Ley believed that it was possible the Babylonians had not only heard of such a creature, but have seen one -- or even had one living in captivity within their city walls, behind the Ishtar Gate.

[Ciraxis]

hey beyond the grave, could you post a link or something? i'd like to read about this.

welcome aboard!

[Ciraxis]

I believe, if i remember right, that the dragon and bull symbolize their gods at the time, marduk and some other god.

[beyond_the _grave]

here are some pics that I found

pic of dragon



as you can probably see scaly body of a dragon, head of a snake, hind feet claws of a large bird of prey, front paws of a lion and the tail of a deadly scorpion.

pic of gate



The Ishtar Gate, one of the eight gates of the inner city of Babylon, was built during the reign of Nebuchadnezzar II (604- 562 BC). Only the foundations of the gate were found, going down some 45 feet, with molded, unglazed figures. The gateway has been reconstructed in the Pergamon Museum, Berlin, from the glazed bricks found, so its original height is different in size. Reconstructed height is 47 feet.

It was one of the eight gates of the inner city of Babylon. It was built in about 575 BC, the eighth fortified gate in the city. It is one of the most impressive monuments rediscovered in the ancient Near East. The Ishtar gate was decorated with glazed brick reliefs, in tiers, of dragons and young bulls. The gate itself was a double one, and on its south side was a vast antechamber. Through the gatehouse ran a stone-and brick-paved avenue, the so-called Processional Way, which has been traced over a length of more than half a mile.


King Nebuchadnezzar II of Babylon dedicated the great Ishtar Gate to the goddess Ishtar. It was the main entrance into Babylon. King Nebuchadnezzar II performed elaborate building projects in Babylon around 604-562 BC. His goal was to beautify his capital. He restored the temple of Marduk, the chief god, and also built himself a magnificent palace with the famous Hanging Gardens, which was reported by the Greek historian Herodotus to have been one of the wonders of the world.


The Bible records that it was Nebuchadnezzar who destroyed Jerusalem, brought the kingdom of Judah to an end, and carried off the Jews into exile. The Ishtar Gate was the starting point for processions. The Babylonians would assemble in front of it and march through the triumphal arch and proceed along the Sacred Way to the 7-story Ziggurat, which was crowned near the temple of Marduk.


The gateway was completely covered with beautifully colored glazed bricks. Its reliefs of dragons and bulls symbolized the gods Marduk and Adad. Enameled tiles of glorious blue surrounded the brightly colored yellow and brown beasts. In front of the gateway outside the city was a road with walls decorated with reliefs of lions and glazed yellow tiles. The Ishtar gate was reconstructed in Berlin out of material excavated by Robert Koldeway.

[SoLLiZ]

Quote

I believe, if i remember right, that the dragon and bull symbolize their gods at the time, marduk and some other god.

marduk and tiamat, marduk was symbolized as a bull, tiamat as a dragon or serpent. according to their legends marduk sliced the evil tiamat in half and the two halves were used to make the heavens and the earth.

[SoLLiZ]

nevermind, that's sumerian mythology, my bad. but the babylonian myths are based off of them.

[beyond_the _grave]

So do think that this dragon really existed, cause way else would they put a lion and a bull ifthey didnt exist all ready.

[SoLLiZ]

people have imaginations, not everything has to have been real.

here is an example

there was no medusa, there was never a half human/snake creature to base her off of, yet she is in mythology and depicted in greco roman paintings

[Baldwin]

I doubt it was real considering it has bird AND mammal feet, with a reptilian body. Doesn't make sense to have so many unrelated characteristics.

[beyond_the _grave]

What about the bull which was Urus,a very large, powerful, and savage extinct bovine animal anciently abundant in Europe. It appears to have still existed in the time of Julius Caesar.

pic of urus


If this animal existed so might have the dragon.

The Sirrush might be another wacka do creature like the platypus who looks like it was sitch to gather from a bunch of animal parts.

[draconic chronicler]

The Ishtar gate "dragons" are not meant to represent Tiamat, which when actually identified is always an enormous "chaos-serpent" and not a scaled quadraped like this.. The most famous piece of artwork said to represent Marduk slaying his mother "Tiamat" is actually a later diety fighting a distinctively "male" creature depicted with a penis, so probably not Maruk's "mother". Most scholars now think this is the "evil" dragon Ahriman, which the Christains copied as their version of "Satan" (which is not the Satan of the old Testament).

More traditional "dragons" like this one, and similar varieties with wings, are commonplace in middle eastern mythology and are "servant creatures" to dieties including Marduk, and even the God of the Hebrews, in the guise of "Seraphim and Cherubuim" which the earliest descriptions and accounts clearly identify as this same kind of dragon-guardian. In most of these stories, including those in the Hebrew bible, these "dragons" guard "heaven", the underworld, sacred trees and precincts, and are sent to punish enemies of the God it serves.

There is an account of a "dragon" being a live creature in the same City of Babylon where it was worphipped as a God, which appears in some Apocryphal Jewish literature added to some Bibles, (Bel and the Dragon).

If this, and any other of the countless thousands of dragon accounts and depictions around the world refer to a "normal" biological creature, there surely would be some evidence of their existence found by now. They must either be regarded as an inexplicable world-wide myth, or if we except there may be "truth" to even just one of mankind's many religious systems (of which virtually all included dragons in some form), then if "God" is real, so must His "dragons" be real, for which there is far more "evidence", but being heavenly creatures, they obviously don't "die" like normal animals, as demonstrated by the lack of physical remains, no matter that virtually the whole world of past times believed they were real.

The Ishtar Gate dragons, for those who maintain dragons were a kind of "dinosaur" that survived extinction, are signifcant however, in that they cast doubt on the theory that all dragon legends stem from the discovery of fossil bones by ancient man. I say this because it was not until the 1850's that any of these fossils were identified as being reptilian. Scales do not survive in the fossil record, therefore ancient man could have not known that the bones they may have found were from a "reptilian creature. But if this were true, in order for these "dragons" to have survived from the end of the Cretaceous until at least 400 BC, millions of generations would have had to have lived, died, and left their remains -- unless, of course, they are indeed the immortal, heavenly creatures, those ancient people believed they were, just like the "Gods" these creatures supposedly served.

[Essan]

Well the creatures depicted on the Ishtar gate looking nothing like any dinosaur I've ever seen.

Maybe there was a creature that looked like that, but it was no more a dinosaur than I am.

[isis-999]

It's a shame Marduk no longer post here, This would not even be a question anymore if he did. But i have to agree with Essan's on the fact i too have never seen a dinosaur that looked anything like that.

[Ciraxis]

i doubt that they were depicting a real creature, but that depends on what you believe. Are dragons real or not? i know what i believe them to be, but they could be anything from dinosaurs to the human imagination and everything inbetween and more.

[SoLLiZ]

Quote

The Ishtar gate "dragons" are not meant to represent Tiamat, which when actually identified is always an enormous "chaos-serpent" and not a scaled quadraped like this.. The most famous piece of artwork said to represent Marduk slaying his mother "Tiamat" is actually a later diety fighting a distinctively "male" creature depicted with a penis, so probably not Maruk's "mother". Most scholars now think this is the "evil" dragon Ahriman, which the Christains copied as their version of "Satan" (which is not the Satan of the old Testament).

More traditional "dragons" like this one, and similar varieties with wings, are commonplace in middle eastern mythology and are "servant creatures" to dieties including Marduk, and even the God of the Hebrews, in the guise of "Seraphim and Cherubuim" which the earliest descriptions and accounts clearly identify as this same kind of dragon-guardian. In most of these stories, including those in the Hebrew bible, these "dragons" guard "heaven", the underworld, sacred trees and precincts, and are sent to punish enemies of the God it serves.

There is an account of a "dragon" being a live creature in the same City of Babylon where it was worphipped as a God, which appears in some Apocryphal Jewish literature added to some Bibles, (Bel and the Dragon).

If this, and any other of the countless thousands of dragon accounts and depictions around the world refer to a "normal" biological creature, there surely would be some evidence of their existence found by now. They must either be regarded as an inexplicable world-wide myth, or if we except there may be "truth" to even just one of mankind's many religious systems (of which virtually all included dragons in some form), then if "God" is real, so must His "dragons" be real, for which there is far more "evidence", but being heavenly creatures, they obviously don't "die" like normal animals, as demonstrated by the lack of physical remains, no matter that virtually the whole world of past times believed they were real.

The Ishtar Gate dragons, for those who maintain dragons were a kind of "dinosaur" that survived extinction, are signifcant however, in that they cast doubt on the theory that all dragon legends stem from the discovery of fossil bones by ancient man. I say this because it was not until the 1850's that any of these fossils were identified as being reptilian. Scales do not survive in the fossil record, therefore ancient man could have not known that the bones they may have found were from a "reptilian creature. But if this were true, in order for these "dragons" to have survived from the end of the Cretaceous until at least 400 BC, millions of generations would have had to have lived, died, and left their remains -- unless, of course, they are indeed the immortal, heavenly creatures, those ancient people believed they were, just like the "Gods" these creatures supposedly served.

hey, quit making me look dumb.

i do a good enough job of that on my own.