[Moondoggy]

Sbradj, you have some keen insight in your studies, where did you learn? You listed 1 Tim 3:16 of God being made manifest in the flesh. The Aramaic texts reads, "...great is the mystery of godliness: which was manifest in the flesh. The greek texts later changed the word for "which" to "God", by simply adding one letter to the word. This appeared in the Uncil manuscripts because they are easier to tamper with. You made a great effort in explaining that verse, however once again it is one of the pro trinitarian verses that have been proved to have been a forgery.

We continue to find sections of Aramaic texts that pre date the critical greek texts. This is interesting because we must realize that aramaic was the common language of the middle east 2000 years ago. Greek was not, but was known for trade purposes. Hebrew was used ceremonially for the most part. It is still in debate in semenaries whether the new testament was originally written in aramaic or greek. The evidence is now shifting towads aramaic.

[Something Like Laughter]

Why would one born in a Greek city, writing to a Greeks, write a letter in Aramaic? Thats most of the NT right there. I've only seen it argued that Matt and Mark were originally written in Aramaic.

[Moondoggy]

The entire new testament dates back to the 5th century. The pesh**ta text is the complete one. Many portions of the gospels date farther back also. The aramaic targums are even old testament writings that have been found that are very old. There is no doubt that copies of text were translated into greek very early on. The trouble is that the "critical" texts in greek that are used today as the "authoritave" texts are coming in about the 12th century. We have some earlier greek texts that date to the 7th century that have omissions in them. The question is how and why did verses appear in the newer texts if they were not in the older?

Further proof that many had trouble translating aramaic into greek is that the translators left many aramaic words in the text, like Eli, Eli Lama sabachthani in the text. Further proof being is that thee is no aramaic word "lama" it is LMNA and there is no word "sabachthani" the word used in estragelo aramaic is "SHBK". The translators had a terrible time with it. The proper rendering of what Jesus said in aramaic was Eli, Eli Lmna Shbk. (you have to supply the vowels for proper pronunciation. The translation is, "MY God, my God for this purpose I was spared".

The pesh**ta text is accurate with this and the greek is well, it's greek!

[Something Like Laughter]

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The entire new testament dates back to the 5th century.

4th, if you consider codex Sinaiticus, the list in the 39th Festal Letter of Athanasius, and the lists approved by the synods of Hippo in 393 and Carthage in 397 to be indicative of when the formation of the NT occurred.

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The trouble is that the "critical" texts in greek that are used today as the "authoritave" texts are coming in about the 12th century.

IIRC, the NA27 uses Alexandrian manuscripts from around the 4th in a large portion of the places where they disagree from the majority byzantine texts.

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The question is how and why did verses appear in the newer texts if they were not in the older?

Tendency of scribes to correct bad grammar and simplify difficult sayings?

oh, and again:
Why would one born in a Greek city, writing to a Greeks, write a letter in Aramaic?



edit: Changed "synods of Hippo in 393 and 397" to "synods of Hippos in 393 and Carthage in 397"

This post has been edited by Something Like Laughter: 26 November 2006 - 03:08 AM

[comforterforall]

The trinity is pretty simple, here is a very good example of how it works. I will use the sun. Thats the SUN not son. Here you have a huge ball of fire its ALL POWERFULL, then there is the FATHER he is all POWERFULL. Out of the SUN you get light you are no longer in the dark. Jesus, the SON, part of the all powerfull, showed us the ligt brought us out of the darkness. Out of the all powerfull SUN comes the light, and then you have the warmth. You know that great feeling you feel when you walk out in the mornings, streach your arms and say man what a great morning it is. Well friends thats the HOLY SPIRIT. Theres GOD the father GOD the son and GOD the holy spirit all three in one just as simple as the big ball of fire, light, warmth. Theres no sence in tring to argue with whats there.

[BIyphe]

Begin slight derailment:

In my own personal paradigm, the trinity is this:

1. I am
2. I will
3. I create

End slight derailment. Carry on!

[odas]

Trinity.

Is one God not powerfull enough? Do we have to give him two more to make him
stronger?

Is trinity an excuse for worshiping someone else besides God?

Questions, questions. And no real answer.

[Moondoggy]

Have looked at to whom the books of James, Peter and Hebrews are addressed to? What makes you think they are addressed to greeks? Book of Romans? But we know latin did not come into translation many years later. Paul was born in Tarsus last I checked which is not greece. The church epistles are addressed to the church and were all intended to be shared through out the various churches and would have to be copied in the appropriate languages, but that does not dismiss that we have a half a chapter of 1 Corinthians in a papyrus fragment that dates to 150 AD and it is definitely written in Aramaic. Paul was a hebrew of the tribe of Benjamin. He did, however, have Roman citizenship, and he was a Pharisee before his conversion, so I am not sure who you are talking about as there are many writers of the New Testament.

I do not care what language the oldest texts would be in. What I care about is something we do called comparative analysis. i.e text to text. When an older text does not contain certain passages as opposed to a newer one, it should cause concern for those who are interested in biblical accuracy.

[Something Like Laughter]

How would you say your knowledge of the history of Alexander the Great and the kingdoms that followed his death is? Vauge and virtually nonfunctional will work, just as long as you know something.

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Have looked at to whom the books of James, Peter and Hebrews are addressed to? What makes you think they are addressed to greeks?

James is addressed to scattered Judeans, which could very easily include those who had never set foot in Palestine, never heard a word of Aramaic, and lived in areas of very heavy Greek influence, having been under Greek rule for a few centuries prior to being conquered by the Romans, which at the time would have included just about everything along the Mediterranean east of the Italian Peninsula.
1Peter is addressed to various geographic entities that were, IIRC, all at one time within the Seleucid Empire.
Hebrews doesn't say, and my knowledge of the tradition surrounding that work is nearly nil, so I can't really say with any reliability.

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Book of Romans?

If you were a roman and wanted to talk to a nonroman, greek was your best chance, certainly not aramaic.

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Paul was born in Tarsus last I checked which is not greece.

It is right in the middle of an area that had seen a few centuries of Greek rule by the time Paul was born.

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The church epistles are addressed to the church and were all intended to be shared through out the various churches and would have to be copied in the appropriate languages

The ones that start out with things like "To the Church of God that is in Corinth?" I highly doubt Paul intended any of his letters to get the treatment that they did.

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but that does not dismiss that we have a half a chapter of 1 Corinthians in a papyrus fragment that dates to 150 AD and it is definitely written in Aramaic.

Does it have a name? or at the least an alphanumeric code?

I am not sure who you are talking about as there are many writers of the New Testament.

St. Paul mainly, but St. Luke would also work.

[Omnaka]

Brother Jesus, Served Man, and God (Father and Mother).

If you don't take care of the rest of your eternal brothers and sisters, when this Body Falls away and, your Full consciousness is revealed, and you have not, forgiven your eternal brothers and sisters who have also been placed in human bodies for a short time, you end up with a heart full of Hate and you become fully self accountable, something you were not able to do while on Earth, and because when this body falls away and ALL your past lives and all the wrong you have done is so evident, because there are no secrets up there.

Because every thing is telepathic, you place your self in a remorseful type of hell, living and reliving all the bad things you have done to your eternal bro's and sisters, so it behooves all to start loving, nurturing and uplifting even those that are of a different faith, because as much as all these different faiths think they know all about God, Heaven and hell from their holy books,, none of them have it quite right, and proclaiming that you do is to set your self up for this horrible remorse (A Fall) that of which I speak .


Worshiping loving and nurturing your human bro’s and sisters is not a blasphemy, it is actually part of the power of the Father, son And Holy spirit and it brings the three together in to infinity, if you don’t Love your bro or even try to love them you put a break in the chain of this power so to speak, between God,(Heavenly Mother, And Father) and man, everything is created by and of the love of these three and the sooner every one realizes it the sooner we can all progress to our next spiritual assignments.


All do eventually graduate, or they cut them selves out of the book of life, all with free will because they feel they are of no use to the universe, and even this is done out of love and is not painful it is if you never were, and go back to the firmament from whence they were created and will be made anew in to something else, with no knowledge of past lives or deeds, this is a blessing of sorts and is granted also out of love, Every thing is made from love If you asked me I think this is a terrible waste of life though, after all the pain and suffering you have gone through to get this far, and all the lives it has taken to just drop out is not even a choice, IMO.

Sad to say some do it anyway, because it is so hard, these lessons, So much for free will,
This world is only a temporary stop on our journey to complete enlightenment, which takes many, many lifetimes of self accountability, and love to complete and even then it is not over, upward and onward, then we create more universes and more worlds, all from love.
Love Omnaka

This post has been edited by Omnaka: 26 November 2006 - 04:25 PM

[Moondoggy]

This is why research is fun because we learn different things as we discover new stuff. Greek and Aramaic were the common languages of Asia minor. But the palestine area utilized Aramaic be cause of it's commonality to Hebrew. Plus the Romans did not seem to have a comprehension of it and the people enjoyed that.

The greeks had their empire as did the Romans and the Turks. With the exception of the Turks, there was never a mandate that the people who were invaded were required to adopt the language and culture. The Romans and Greeks were power motivated and economy motivated, whereas the Turks were motivated by religion. This is why in areas that the Turks occupied there is often found muslim culture and religion and language. This clearly was not the case with the Greeks and Romans, not to say that there was some obvious impact like buildings and roads etc... King Herod was even allowed to restore the Temple in Jerusalem while under Roman rule. This would never have happened under Muslim rule. This may explain why they built a Mosque on the temple mount.

[Omnaka]

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This is why research is fun because we learn different things as we discover new stuff. Greek and Aramaic were the common languages of Asia minor. But the palestine area utilized Aramaic be cause of it's commonality to Hebrew. Plus the Romans did not seem to have a comprehension of it and the people enjoyed that.

The greeks had their empire as did the Romans and the Turks. With the exception of the Turks, there was never a mandate that the people who were invaded were required to adopt the language and culture. The Romans and Greeks were power motivated and economy motivated, whereas the Turks were motivated by religion. This is why in areas that the Turks occupied there is often found muslim culture and religion and language. This clearly was not the case with the Greeks and Romans, not to say that there was some obvious impact like buildings and roads etc... King Herod was even allowed to restore the Temple in Jerusalem while under Roman rule. This would never have happened under Muslim rule. This may explain why they built a Mosque on the temple mount.

I forgot are you trying to prove there is a power called the trinity or are you trying to disprove this power that is so evident in everyones life By Quoting Scripture, written by those in the early days of Man?
Love Omnaka

[Moondoggy]

No I am done with that topic, I would refer people to a book called "Mystery Babylon religion" that can argue the topic far better than I can. My major is in Middle eastern history so I love these topics.

[Something Like Laughter]

Mystery Babylon Religion by Ralph Woodrow?

oh, and

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but that does not dismiss that we have a half a chapter of 1 Corinthians in a papyrus fragment that dates to 150 AD and it is definitely written in Aramaic.

Does it have a name? or at the least an alphanumeric code?

This post has been edited by Something Like Laughter: 26 November 2006 - 07:25 PM

[Omnaka]

No offence intended but This topic is about the trinity , I realise, it is easy to get sidetracked , and one thing leads to another but The trinity is important to me
so I started you another thread, with your and moondoggies last post.
Love Omnaka