[Something Like Laughter]

Zero Shadow: i would recommend reading the articles about the trinity on JP Holding's website here: http://www.tektonics...itydefense.html and http://www.tektonics...quietthird.html
if those dont answer your questions, i would try asking somewhere else like www.theologyweb.com.

[iaapac]

We are debating a topic that has no basic in historic fact, even though some want to fall back on personal interpretations and present them as legitimate. The only historic reference we have to the trinity is found in the records of church councils such as Nicaea and Constantiople but these were, of course, men CREATING a trinity for the interests of the early church. Neither the plurality of the "gods" in the creation tale or the recorded comments of Jesus in reference to his father provide evidence. Every qualified Biblical expert will agree that there were countless additions and amendments made to the Scriptures and like the trinity, all were designed to best serve a new, emerging dogma. In 1960 Professor Morton Smith of Columbia University discovered what is probably the earliest known copy of the Book of Mark and it did not contain a resurrection tale or any event after Jesus was placed in the tomb. This is a classic example of the tampering and doctoring of the gospels as done by early church fathers and scribes.

[ADbox]

I have been reading the gospels lately... but im too lazy to cite my beliefs.

Here is my views of the trinity though.


Trintity= father, son, holy spirit.

Holy Spirit: Highest positive energy, consists of love hope compassion and everything that is "good"

Father: Highest God, Metaphysical, Entity of Holy Spirit.

Son: aka christ, son of man, morning star. Christ is human. All humans, after christ's sacrifice carry the holy spirit. we can all be jesus christ. But Jesus was the christ, and "perfect". So Christ, the son, is the physical entity of god, who is the metaphsyical creator.


In the bible jesus says you can blasphemize the father and the son and you can be forgiven. He then says there will be no forgiveness for talkin sh** about the holy spirit. The holy spirit is kinda like the "hope" that was in pandoras box.

[ShaunZero]

I did some looking around but those 2 main questions still remain.

1) Why would God pray to God?
All they can say is "To show respect".

2) How can Satan temp the creator of all things with riches?


Jesus said: "Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one. (From the NIV Bible, Mark 12:29)"

Notice also how Jesus said "our God", which included him to be under GOD Almighty's creation and Divine Authority, and not someone or an entity that is equal to GOD Almighty. And he did not say "We are one" but "The Lord is one",


"I and the Father are one" THAT text, at John 10:30, is often cited to support the Trinity, even though no third person is mentioned there. But Jesus himself showed what he meant by his being "one" with the Father. At John 17:21, 22, he prayed to God that his disciples "may all be one, just as you, Father, are in union with me and I am in union with you, that they also may be in union with us, . . . that they may be one just as we are one." Was Jesus praying that all his disciples would become a single entity? No, obviously Jesus was praying that they would be united in thought and purpose, as he and God were.—See also 1 Corinthians 1:10.

"Acknowledge that I alone am God and that there is no one else like me."—Isaiah 46:9, TEV.
If God and Jesus are one, how is God truly God just by himself?

CODE

Jesus is a god, but is not God almighty. DOES saying that Jesus Christ is "a god" conflict with the Bible's teaching that there is only one God? No, for at times the Bible employs that term to refer to mighty creatures. [b]Psalm 8:5[/b] reads: "You also proceeded to make him [man] a little less than godlike ones [Hebrew, ´elo·him']," that is, angels. In Jesus' defense against the charge of the Jews, that he claimed to be God, he noted that "the Law uses the word gods of those to whom the word of God was addressed," that is, human judges. ([b]John 10:34, 35, JB; Psalm 82:1-6[/b]) Even Satan is called "the god of this system of things" at 2 [b]Corinthians 4:4[/b].

Those who believe in the Trinity are not "holding God in accurate knowledge." ([b]Romans 1:28[/b]) That verse also says: "God gave them up to a disapproved mental state, to do the things not fitting." Verses 29 to 31 list some of those 'unfitting' things, such as 'murder, strife, being false to agreements, having no natural affection, merciless.' Those very things have been practiced by religions that accept the Trinity.

For instance, Trinitarians have often persecuted and even killed those who rejected the Trinity doctrine. And they have gone even further. They have killed their fellow Trinitarians in wartime. What could be more 'unfitting' than Catholics killing Catholics, Orthodox killing Orthodox, Protestants killing Protestants—all in the name of the same Trinitarian God?

Jehovah Witnesses have been murdered for the things they beleive.
Source

This post has been edited by ZeroShadow: 08 October 2005 - 03:49 AM

[TheEssenceofExcellence]

Quote

gee-that makes it so weird, since the writers of the n.t. didn't know anything about jewish practices or beliefs. please don't insult the jewish religion like that again.please.

Dude i'm sorry, but if you think the people who wrote the New Testament didn't know anything about Jewish practices or beliefs you just don't know what your talking about, end of story. The only person insulting the jewish religion here would be you if anybody was to begin with....

The original Christians were Jewish to begin with, who ever sat down and wrote down the n.t. knew this, and knew about Jewish practices and beliefs, which is why they kept the old testament in the bible. But most modern day Christians don't practice all the same things Jewish people do because they believe the Jewish religion and old testament are part of the old covenant with God (the one Moses made with God when he received the 10 commandments)....Christians follow the new covenant with God (they still follow the things like the commandments in the old testament, but they believe Jesus is the way to salvation and that we don't need to do all the same things that Jewish people did like the Sabbath Harvest every 7 years and stuff like that). So you see the writers of the n.t. did know the Jewish traditions I assure.

Now, you may think they didn't, I can't stop you from thinking that......but since no one can say exactly who wrote each book of the Bible because they usually took on different names while writing, nobody can say with certainty since no one knows exactly who the writers were......and that "no one" would include you my friend.

[draconic chronicler]

Mako, you seem to be ignoring the fact that many of Christianity's early followers were not ignorant rabble but from the educated elite of the Roman empire that could have very easily used the historical records to verify the existence of Jesus. As I said before, many sceptics denied the existence of Pontius Pilate just as vehemenately, and ultimately had egg on their face when the Pilate stele was discovered in Caesarea. Despite all of the ancient persecutions I don't recall any claim that "Jesus the man" was ficticious because in those times there was overwhelming proof he lived.
It is only modern skeptics that can make this claim 2000 years after the fact, when virtually all the documents of the ancient world are gone.

Essence, I believe you are taking Gideon's words out of context, but if the truth be told, Christianity has only a thin veneer of Judasim which even some Popes wanted to eliminate altogether by completely removing the Old Testament books from the Christian scriptures! Christianity is in fact filled with blasphemous and sacrilegious ideas taken from Pagan Greek and Asian souces. This has been intelligently discussed on many threads in this forum, and there are dozens of scholary works on the subject you can find in most libraries above the "Bible Belt" (where books are still burnt just like the Nazis did).

Unfortunately, most Christians rather ignorantly dismiss these facts or claim Satan "magically" created the historical evidence that many aspects of Jesus were copied from Mithras, that the demons that fill the New Testament were pagan Greek superstitions, that the concept of a fiery Hell punishment was copied from the Greek Hades, the whole idea of the "evil Satan" and dualism were directly copied for Zorastrian religious thought, complete with its own evil dragon to also be bound with chains and cast into a pit for 1000 years, which the Apostle John shamelessly stole and added to the Christian theology.

The vast majority of early Christians were recruited from the Pagans. The only reason it was even accepted by so many pagans of that day was becasue it was filled with familiar, pagan ideas they had already accepted. On the contrary, these Christian ideas were too pagan-like and blasphemous for most Jews to accept. This is historical fact.

I do not blame Jesus for this. He was obviously sincere, and the Hellenic Jews of his time had also strayed greatly from the original word of God, and pagan influences had crept into their theology by that time. Jesus spoke against this, and his original purpose was probably more to reform Judaism than create a new religion. But when Jesus departed, his followers clearly failed him. Maybe not intentionally, but the New Testament is filled with Pagan doctrines, and Jesus' own life was rewritten to be an imitation of Mithras which only damages the credibility of Christian doctrine when examined by intelligent people who are fully aware of other ancient cultures and religious beliefs. Modern Christians should recognize these facts and seek to reform their doctrine rather than ignorantly claiming that historical facts are "the work of the devil". It is this ridiculous stand that is largely turning Christianity into a "joke" among educated people.

This post has been edited by draconic chronicler: 08 October 2005 - 04:05 PM

[Jesusfan]

Quote

Mako, you seem to be ignoring the fact that many of Christianity's early followers were not ignorant rabble but from the educated elite of the Roman empire that could have very easily used the historical records to verify the existence of Jesus. As I said before, many sceptics denied the existence of Pontius Pilate just as vehemenately, and ultimately had egg on their face when the Pilate stele was discovered in Caesarea. Despite all of the ancient persecutions I don't recall any claim that "Jesus the man" was ficticious because in those times there was overwhelming proof he lived.
It is only modern skeptics that can make this claim 2000 years after the fact, when virtually all the documents of the ancient world are gone.

Essence, I believe you are taking Gideon's words out of context, but if the truth be told, Christianity has only a thin veneer of Judasim which even some Popes wanted to eliminate altogether by completely removing the Old Testament books from the Christian scriptures! Christianity is in fact filled with blasphemous and sacrilegious ideas taken from Pagan Greek and Asian souces. This has been intelligently discussed on many threads in this forum, and there are dozens of scholary works on the subject you can find in most libraries above the "Bible Belt" (where books are still burnt just like the Nazis did).

The Early Christians were all in fact though jewish converts who saw in the life, ministry, death, and resurrection of Jesus Christ the fulfillments of the Hebrew Scriptures the Messiah promised by GOD to Israel... Christianity formed, built upon as the bedrock Judaism, as it was properily intrepreted from both the Law and the Prophets... NT is the consumation and fulfillment of the OT promises to God, and it is built upon a surer Covenant, that being built upon cornerstone rock of Christ..

Unfortunately, most Christians rather ignorantly dismiss these facts or claim Satan "magically" created the historical evidence that many aspects of Jesus were copied from Mithras, that the demons that fill the New Testament were pagan Greek superstitions, that the concept of a fiery Hell punishment was copied from the Greek Hades, the whole idea of the "evil Satan" and dualism were directly copied for Zorastrian religious thought, complete with its own evil dragon to also be bound with chains and cast into a pit for 1000 years, which the Apostle John shamelessly stole and added to the Christian theology.

Actually, the NT writers all claimed to be writers for GOD, inspired by same Holy Spirit that had moved upon, and inspired words, thoughts, utterances, and writting odf prophets of God in OT...

Jesus himself taught existence of place of eternal banishment from God, hades/Hell, and Apostle John recorded what jesus and his Angel gave him to see concerning the Revelation...

The vast majority of early Christians were recruited from the Pagans. The only reason it was even accepted by so many pagans of that day was becasue it was filled with familiar, pagan ideas they had already accepted. On the contrary, these Christian ideas were too pagan-like and blasphemous for most Jews to accept. This is historical fact.

Vast majority of early converts to Christianity were Jews, not Pagens, and in Christ jesus they saw him as the Messiah promised to Jewish people from time of Prophets sent to them by God...

I do not blame Jesus for this. He was obviously sincere, and the Hellenic Jews of his time had also strayed greatly from the original word of God, and pagan influences had crept into their theology by that time. Jesus spoke against this, and his original purpose was probably more to reform Judaism than create a new religion. But when Jesus departed, his followers clearly failed him. Maybe not intentionally, but the New Testament is filled with Pagan doctrines, and Jesus' own life was rewritten to be an imitation of Mithras which only damages the credibility of Christian doctrine when examined by intelligent people who are fully aware of other ancient cultures and religious beliefs. Modern Christians should recognize these facts and seek to reform their doctrine rather than ignorantly claiming that historical facts are "the work of the devil". It is this ridiculous stand that is largely turning Christianity into a "joke" among educated people.

The NT docuements are the best, most attested to of all of the ancients historical documents, as the Gospels were all wriiten within first generation of his followers, and book of James, Pauline letters were written within 20 years of life of Jesus...

Jesus was a Jew, who saw himself as being sent by God, whom he knew and called as his father, and who did miracles that none refuted, just his followers called them as being done by God , his enemies by the Devil...

He died, and was raised back to life on the third day, as was attested to by over 500 eyewitnesses, some who still were alive at time of NT books being written and circulated, and something happened to his chief enemy, saul of the Pharisees becoming his greatest Apostle, Paul...

basis of early Christianity was not Pagen myths/doctrines, as Jesus and his earliest followers were jews, raised in classic Judaism of the OT Prophets/Law, and as such, He and his followers saw in his teachings/works/deeds, and especially in His resurrection, that God had fulfilled the promised coming Messiah, and know his followers look for his Second Coming to this earth, to set up his glorious Kingdom...

[antiaging]

Quote

Ok, I'm undecided at wich to beleive.

God and Jesus are one.

Jesus and God are 2 seperate beings.
I need as much information as possible to get a better understanding of this subject.

I'm leaning towards the fact that Jesus and God are NOT one.

If you beleive in the Holy Trinity, please post all of your proof. I do not have alot of knowlage on the subject, but I will try to defend the idea of God and Jesus being seperate.
Hey, you never know, in the end I may be a trinitarian. I do have a few questions you may be able to answer for me though:

IJohn 5:7 (King James version) For there are three that bear record in
heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are
one.
John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and
the Word was God.
John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh and dwelt amongst us,
In the book of Revelation, it says that Jesus’ name is the Word of God.
Revelation 19:13 And he [was] clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
The Bible refers to Jesus as the Word that was made flesh and dwelt
amongst us. In IJohn 5:7, the "Word" in that passage is referring to
Jesus. In the account of the baptism of Jesus in Luke 3:21, 22, you can
see all three members of the trinity existing separately at the same
time.
Luke 3:21,22 ...that Jesus also being baptized, and praying, the heaven
was opened. And the Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape like a dove
upon Him, and a voice came from heaven, which said, Thou Art My beloved
Son; in thee I am well pleased.
The Father spoke from heaven, while Jesus the man was on Earth and the
Holy Spirit descended in a bodily shape as a dove. Three separate
persons. The phrase " these three are one" in IJohn 5:7 means this.
Definition of the word one: The American Heritage Dictionary
ONE: 1. being a single entity, unit
2. characterized by unity; of a single kind or nature; undivided:
with one accord.
The use of the word One in IJohn 5:7 is using it according to this
definition number 2. It means that Jesus, the Father, and the Holy Ghost
have a unity, they have the same nature and they act with one accord.
That is how "these three are one".

The use of the word ONE in 1John 5:7 is not numerical one.
The definition of ONE in that verse is this:
of a single nature, undivided, with one accord. Get a big dictionary and look up the word ONE. It has more than one meaning. It means that Jesus, the Father and the Holy Spirit have the same nature, they are undivided in their actions or purposes, they act with one accord. For proof that John uses the word ONE to mean this definition, look at these scriptures.
John 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.
John 17:22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
Jesus is praying to the Father in these verses. He said, "that they may be one, even as we are one." Jesus referred to Himself and the Father as, "We", showing that Jesus and the Father are two separate persons. Jesus was talking about His disciples, which are a lot more than one person. Jesus said, "that they may be one", the definition used here can't be numerical one; it must mean the other definition of being in one accord. Then He said, "even as we are one", showing that He is using the same definition of being in one accord when He spoke about Himself and God the Father who He was praying to in these verses

The Bible says that God the Father is God.
Isaiah 43:10 Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.
John 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and[to my God, and your God.

The Bible says that Jesus Christ the Son is God.
John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
1 Timothy 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.
(Jesus is the one that was received up into Glory, after His resurection; this scripture also shows that Jesus is God.}
Philippians 2:6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
Philippians 2:7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
Philippians 2:8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

Phillipians 2:6 plainly shows that Jesus was in the form of God and equal with God, before He became a man.

Micah 5:2 But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, [though] thou be little among the thousands of Judah, [yet] out of thee shall he come forth unto me [that is] to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth [have been] from of old, from everlasting.

This prophecy in Micah, is about the birth of the Messiah, who is Jesus Christ, and it says that His goings forth have been from everlasting, showing the deity of Jesus the Messiah.

Isaiah 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
Isaiah 9:7 Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.



John 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

Revelation 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they [also] which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.
Revelation 1:8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.


John 20:27 Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust [it] into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.
ohn 20:28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.
John 20:29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed [are] they that have not seen, and [yet] have believed.


Jesus referred to Himself as the Son of man:
Daniel 7:13 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, [one] like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.

Daniel 7:14 And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion [is] an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom [that] which shall not be destroyed.
Daniel 7:16 I came near unto one of them that stood by, and asked him the truth of all this. So he told me, and made me know the interpretation of the things.

Daniel 7:27 And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom [is] an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him.


In verse 7:13,14 it shows that an everlasting dominion is to be given to the Son of man , and all people should serve Him. In verse 7:27, the interpretation says that the most High has the everlasting kingdom.



The Bible says that the Holy Spirit is God.
Acts 5:3 But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land?
Acts 5:4 Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God.

So all three must be the one true Jehovah..

1 Corinthians 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.

1 Corinthians 12:4 Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.
1 Corinthians 12:5 And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord.
1 Corinthians 12:6 And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all.

The gifts of the Holy Spirit (1 cor. 12:8 - 1 cor. 12:11), and the administrations associated with the Lord Jesus, and the operations that are associated with God the Father; it says that "the same God worketh all in all."

Look at this scripture:
Genesis 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

God called Himself, "us" and used the word "our" conscerning His image and likeness. The words "us" and "our" indicate more than one person in God.

Evidence of the trinity in the Old Testament:
Isaiah 48:13 Mine hand also hath laid the foundation of the earth, and my right hand hath spanned the heavens: when I call unto them, they stand up together.
Isaiah 48:15 I, even I, have spoken; yea, I have called him: I have brought him, and he shall make his way prosperous.
Isaiah 48:16 Come ye near unto me, hear ye this; I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; from the time that it was, there am I: and now the Lord GOD, and his Spirit, hath sent me.
Isaiah 48:17 Thus saith the LORD, thy Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel; I am the LORD thy God which teacheth thee to profit, which leadeth thee by the way that thou shouldest go.


Jesus the Son is God; Isaiah prophesied a stone of stumbling:
Isaiah 8:13 Sanctify the LORD of hosts himself; and let him be your fear, and let him be your dread.

Isaiah 8:14 And he shall be for a sanctuary; but for a stone of stumbling and for a rock of offence to both the houses of Israel, for a gin and for a snare to the inhabitants of Jerusalem.

Isaiah 8:15 And many among them shall stumble, and fall, and be broken, and be snared, and be taken.

Isaiah's "stone of stumbling" is "the LORD of hosts". Here's the use the New Testament authors make of this "stone of stumbling":
1 Peter 2:7 Unto you therefore which believe [he is] precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner,

1 Peter 2:8 And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, [even to them] which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.


Romans 9:32 Wherefore? Because [they sought it] not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;

Romans 9:33 As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.


To the New Testament authors, Isaiah's "stone of stumbling" is Jesus Christ. The Bible testifies: Jesus Christ is the LORD of Hosts.


Look at these scriptures, they are all the same context. God the Father is sitting on a throne and Jesus takes the book out of the Father's right hand.
Certainly, Jesus and the Father are two separate persons.

Revelation 4:8 And the four beasts had each of them six wings about [him]; and [they were] full of eyes within: and they rest not day and night, saying, Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come.
Revelation 4:9 And when those beasts give glory and honour and thanks to him that sat on the throne, who liveth for ever and ever,
Revelation 5:1 And I saw in the right hand of him that sat on the throne a book written within and on the backside, sealed with seven seals.
Revelation 5:5 And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Juda, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.

Revelation 5:6 And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.

Revelation 5:7 And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne.


Isaiah 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.




To ascribe most of these names or powers to any one but God would be > blasphemous, yet the Bible clearly ascribes ALL of them to Yeshua Hamashiakh > (Jesus Christ). It points to Yeshua (Jesus) and Yahweh being one and the > same: the great "I AM." > > Used of Yahweh > Description > Used of Jesus Christ > > Exodus 3:14 > YAHWEH ("I AM") > John 8:58 > > Genesis 1:1 > GOD > Titus 2:13 > > Isaiah 48:12 > ALPHA AND OMEGA > Revelation 1:17, 18 > > Isaiah 45:23 > LORD > Philippians 2:10, 11 > > Isaiah 43:11 > SAVIOR > John 4:42 > > Isaiah 43:15 > KING > Revelation 19:16 > > Genesis 18:25 > JUDGE > 2 Corinthians 5:10 > > Psalm 27:1 > LIGHT > John 8:12 > > Deuteronomy 32:3,4 > ROCK > 1 Corinthians 10:3, 4 > > Isaiah 48:17 > REDEEMER > Ephesians 1:7 > > Isaiah 45:24 > OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS > Romans 3:21, 22 > > Isaiah 44:24 > HUSBAND > 2 Corinthians 11:2 > > Psalm 23:1 > SHEPHERD > John 10:11-16 > > Isaiah 44:24 > CREATOR > Colossians 1:16 > > Deuteronomy 32:39 > GIVER OF LIFE > John 5:21 > > Daniel 9:9 > FORGIVER OF SIN > Mark 2:1-12 > > Exodus 15:26 > LORD OUR HEALER > Acts 9:34 > > Psalm 139:7-12 > OMNIPRESENT > Matthew 28:19-20 > > 1 Kings 8:39 > OMNISCIENT > John 16:30 > > Isaiah 40:10-31 > OMNIPOTENT > Mark 1:29-34 > > Genesis 1:1 > PREEXISTENT > John 17:5 > > Psalm 102:26, 27 > ETERNAL > Isaiah 9:6 > > Malachi 3:6 > IMMUTABLE > Hebrews 13:8 > > John 4:24 > RECEIVER OF WORSHIP > Matthew 28:9 > > > > > Taken from http://www.matsati.com/comparison.html MATSATI who is my brother > in Yeshua HaMashiakh.


2 Corinthians 13:14 The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Ghost, [be] with you all. Amen.


Matthew 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
Matthew 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

Trinity Old Testament
When God is referred to in the singular such as I, it is showing the being of God as the only God. When it is in the plural he is revealing something personal of his nature. What cults do is concentrate only on the single passages that describe God as I, me, myself and ignore all the plural passages such as us, we, our. They also ignore how they are used. Because of their preconceived notions that God has to be numerically one they have tunnel vision. If we look carefully we find God is usually revealing his persons when speaking of himself in the plural context. Trinitarians realize that God is described in both ways and take the whole of the Bible instead of a cut and paste theology that makes the scriptures conform to our own interpretation. God is clearly presented as a united one not only through the language but through the descriptions themselves. "In the light of the facts of the New Testament we cannot refrain from asking whether there may not have been some adumbrations of it in the Old Testament. As the doctrine arises directly out of the facts of the New Testament, we do not look for any full discovery of it in the Old Testament. We must not expect too much, because, as Israel's function was to emphasize the unity of God (Deut.6:4), any premature revelation might have been. But if the doctrine be true, we might expect that Christian Jews, at any rate, would seek for some anticipation of it in the Old Testament. We believe we find it there. (a) The use of the plural "Elohim,," with the singular verb, "bara," is at least noteworthy, and seems to call for some recognition, especially as the same grammatical solecism is found used by St. Paul (1 Thess.3:11). Then, too, the use of the plurals "our" (Gen. 1. 26), "us" (3:22), "us" (11:7), seems to indicate some self-converse in God. It is not satisfactory to refer this to angels because they were not associated with God in creation. Whatever may be the meaning of this usage, it seems, at any rate, to imply that Hebrew Monotheism was an intensely living reality". ( Dr. W. H. Griffith Thomas Principles of Theology The Doctrine Anticipated" pp. 25, 26), God has unfolded his revelation throughout history and many times we had to wait to understand it. This is especially true for prophecy. When we take all the information the Bible has on a certain subject such as the nature of God we can understand what was said in the past. What was given in Genesis, needed to have future revelation to explain its meaning. In the same way, there are only two scriptures relating to a virgin conceiving Gen.3:15, Isa 7:14 and needed the future revelation to understand their meaning. The example of this is Gen. 1:26: " And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness" Let us make man in our image-Naase=let us make, adam bitzalmanu- adam bitzalmanu- nu=our, tselem= image in our likeness- keedmutenu- keedmutenu- nu=our, demuth=likeness. (dashes found in Hebrew mean 2 words in a relationship to one another) the words our and us are interconnected with other words and cannot be separated. Anti Trinitarians like Jehovah Witnesses and others entertain the only reasonable explanation from human wisdom. Trying to avoid the issue saying God talked with the angels, The Bible once again refute this logic in Isa.40:12-15 when speaking of God creating the world it asked, "With whom did he take counsel." Can anyone find this statement of his conferring with angels in the Bible. I'm sure when they do it will be right next to God is strictly one person. The speaker of Gen.1:26 is God, the other he is speaking to is of the same nature and essence because he includes him in being equal, as the source of creating. The words image and likeness are attached to the plural pronoun our and us. So the speaker and the ones addressed are of the same image. While the J.W. and other anti Trinitarians will say he speaking to the angels the very next verse settles the matter. Vs.27 verifies all this by saying "so God created man in his own image ; in the image of God he created him." There were no angels involved in making man in his image. Isa.45:11: "Thus says the holy One of Israel and his maker "I have made the earth, and created man on it. I-- My hands-- stretched out the heavens, and all their host I have commanded." Gen. 3:22:" And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us," us is indicative of number; the word one is also the word echad meaning to unite. Gen.11:7: ..." let us go down, and there confound their language,"' the us is found in this text and is the same word for us in vs.4 when the people said "come let us build ourselves a city". If one is going to say us can't be plural, then they will have to be consistent and change this to, come let myself build a city. Gen.19:24: "Then Yahweh rained upon Sodom and Gomorrah fire and brimstone from Yahweh out of heaven Yahweh who was on earth talking to Abraham in form rained it from another who is Yahweh in heaven. ISA.48:16: "from the beginning from the time that it was, I was there: ( 1st person) and now the Lord GOD (2nd person) and his Spirit, (3rd person) hath sent me(1st person)." here we have three individuals existing together, the one speaking states that he was there from before time (Jn. 1:1 ) he refers to the Lord and states that both Yahweh and his Spirit have sent me, (the speaker.) This goes perfectly in line with Isa. 6:8 God speaking to Isaiah "Who shall I send, who will go for us". Both the singular and the plural are used in the same verse. Zech.2: 8-11: Here we have an account of someone being sent from the Lord yet as the description goes on in the passages we find this person to be God himself. In vs.10 " sing and rejoice, O daughter of Zion! For behold, I am coming and I will dwell in your midst says the Lord. In vs11 ..." And I will dwell in your midst. Then you will know that the Lord of hosts has sent me to you" Here are two persons mentioned the Lord said he is coming he then says the Lord of hosts is sending him, who is identified as Yahweh. It is this one who will dwell with man. Isa.41:21-26: God asks the people to present their case in vs.22 he uses the plural us, and we for himself . In vs.23 we vs.26 we . Since this is God speaking the conclusion is that he refers to himself in the plural. Isa.45:11:" Thus saith the LORD, the Holy One of Israel, and his Maker, I have made the earth and created man on it, I my hands stretched out the heavens." two persons Yahweh and his maker who is God also. Singular as God, plural in persons (Isa. 45:18, ) How does this mesh with Isaiah 44:24 ? It states that the Lord made all things who stretched out the heavens all alone, who spreads out the earth by myself." There is no conflict, because the Father, Son and the Spirit are all God. As the one God alone, he made everything! In the N.T. we find this maker is Christ the Son (Col.1:16, Jn.1:3,Heb.1:2) God the Father is the source, Christ is the means and the Spirit is the power that created all things. Since all three are involved in creating they are the one God. Genesis 1:1 says that in the beginning God (Elohim) created. The word Elohim is a compound unity. It describes more than one person as a unified one as in this description of God. If all three are attributed to this event then they are Elohim. Zech.13:7: " Awake, O sword against my shepherd, and against the man that is my fellow, says the Lord of hosts." the Hebrew word for fellow means equal, so it reads against the man who is my equal (deity). Jer.23:5-6: " Behold the days are coming, says the Lord, that I will raise to David a branch of righteousness; a King shall reign and prosper, and execute judgment and righteousness in the earth. in his days Judah will be saved, and Israel will dwell safely; now this is his name by which he will be called THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS." Here is described a descendant of David a man who will reign on David's throne and is called the Lord, yet there is another who is Lord who raised him up. This is echoed by Isaiah 9:6 about the Son who is given, "of the increase of his government and peace, there will be no end, upon the throne of David and over his kingdom. To order it and establish it with judgment and justice from that time forward even forever." What other man could deserve the title "THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS? Except the sinless God/man. The mighty God of Isa.9:6. The ancient rabbis also believed that this verse was a reference the Messiah? This verse is applied to the Messiah in a number of rabbinical writings. Regarding Jeremiah 23:6, the ancient' of the Prophets states: 'And I will raise up for David the Messiah the Just. Rabbi Kimchi (I160-1235 C.E.), a highly respected Rabbi in his time, wrote of this prophecy: 'By the Righteous branch is meant Messiah ". In the Midrash on Psalm 23, it is interesting to note the Messiah is given a divine designation. He is called, "Jehovah is a man of war' and "Jehovah our righteousness., Also in the Midrash on Lamentations 1: 16, the name Jehovah is expressly attributed to the Messiah. If the ancient rabbis are correct, then the obvious and startling conclusion is that the Messiah (the righteous shoot) will be born into the world as a literal physical human being. Isa.11:1-5 "There shall come forth a Rod from the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots." Here we have the Branch mentioned which indicates the lineage of Jesus coming from King David's Father Jesse. (Lk.22:42) We also see him having the fullness of the Spirit even beyond what Solomon had. The Spirit is mentioned 7 times a number indicating completeness or fullness. "The Spirit of the LORD shall rest upon Him, the Spirit of wisdom and understanding, the Spirit of counsel and might, the Spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD. His delight is in the fear of the LORD, ." Zech.3:8-9 'Hear, O Joshua, the high priest, you and your companions who sit before you, for they are a wondrous sign; for behold, I am bringing forth My Servant the BRANCH. For behold, the stone that I have laid before Joshua: upon the stone are seven eyes. Behold, I will engrave its inscription,' says the LORD of hosts, 'And I will remove the iniquity of that land in one day". This identifies him as the branch. He is Gods servant, Jesus said he did not come to be served but to serve. He also says he will remove the sin in one day, which is exactly what happened when Jesus died. Continuing in his revelation he is told by the Lord in Zech.4:7 that he will bring forth the capstone with shouts of grace, grace to it. The day iniquity was removed was because of grace, the New Covenant. Zech.12:10:"and they will look upon me (the word "me" is given two letters the Aleph and the Tov in Hebrew which is equal to the alpha and omega in the Greek) whom they have pierced, and they will mourn for him as one mourns for his only Son." There is the 1st person speaking who is God, he addresses the subject pierced as himself and then addresses himself in the 3rd person as the Son. This is a clear indication of God becoming man and dying for the sins of the world.

[S♥ ♥ ♥]

Zero i say you know the answer to this you don't need any of us to tell you what is obvious, you had two excellent questions and wisdom is in the question not in the answer Why would godself pray to godself??????So zero you tell me waht is the trinity??? Namaste Sheri

[ShaunZero]

Well, Sherri, thanks for your input, but I posted those questions to see if they can be answered, if they can I might beleive in the Trinity, if not then I don't.

The trinity in my opinion is non-existant. There is no such thing in the bible.

antiaging, that was a good post, but it still does not answer some of my questions. Mainly why would God pray to himself, and what could possibly tempt God?

[S♥ ♥ ♥]

Zero why does it depend on the answering of those questions by others for you to decide on the trinity you need to decide for yourself what it means to you if anything, all anyone can tell you is what it means to them they are giving there beleifs on the matter, not wheter to beleive it or not in asking that of others you are asking them to be responsible for your decisons >> Right or wrong you need to make them Namste Sheri

[ShaunZero]

I understand that, but getting more information on the subject will also help me make that decision.

[S♥ ♥ ♥]

Understood

[draconic chronicler]

Jesusfan, wish you'd learn how to use the "quotations" as your comments are intermingled with mine, and difficult for others to determine who is saying what.

I suppose no amount of evidence would be enough to prove to you that curent Christianity is filled with pagan doctrines. It is beyond any dispute, and there are hundreds of scholary books on the subject, unless you play the "Devil Card" and claim all the historical proof was magically created by Satan.

There is no evidence whatsoever many Jews accepted the early Christain doctrine, which is understandable considering it was filled with blasphemous, foreign, pagan doctrine repungent to any pious Jew. In fact all of the evidence is to the contrary. For why is the Old Testament written in the language of the Pagan Greeks, instead of the sacred Hebrew language of the Jews?

Oh, I know, "the Devil made them do it".

This post has been edited by draconic chronicler: 11 October 2005 - 12:13 PM

[mako]

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you seem to be ignoring the fact that many of Christianity's early followers were not ignorant rabble but from the educated elite of the Roman empire

Before we can say when the educated elite came into the religion (early or late), we have to examine the little information we have of when the religion actually was established. We have no information (other than gospels written sometime in the very late 1st century CE to the middle of the 2nd century CE) on when Jesus was actually born and when he was executed. Actually, we only have the word of the gospels that he was executed…There is no contemporary mention of this personage, even though (as I pointed out before) there were contemporary Jewish historians writing at that time that totally ignore him (much to the chagrin of later apologists).
We have a second century apologist (Irenaeus) who tells us that Jesus lived into the reign of Trajan and was over 50 years of age! Valentinus, in the mid second century CE, does not know a crucified Jesus, but only a human teacher, Basillides, writing at about the same time vehemently denies a crucified Jesus.
Maricon, 2nd century Bishop, has his Christ (not Jesus, as Maricon accepts no Jewish savior) descend from heaven full grown , Theophilus, 2nd century Bishop of Antioch knows no Jesus, and gives this reason for being called Christian, “First, because that which is anointed is sweet and serviceable, and far from contemptible ... And what man, when he enters into this life or into the gymnasium, is not anointed with oil? ... Wherefore we are called Christians on this account, because we are anointed with the oil of God.", rather strange that a Bishop doesn’t seem to have heard of Jesus! Theophilus refers extensively to Jewish scripture and even to the prophecies of the Greek Sibyl.
Clement of Alexandria, late second – early third century was under the allusion that Jesus actually reigned as King in Jerusalem!
Epiphanius of Salamis, 4th century Bishop, knew this about Jesus, “"For with the advent of the Christ, the succession of the princes from Judah, who reigned until the Christ Himself, ceased. The order failed and stopped at the time when He was born in Bethlehem of Judaea, in the days of Alexander, who was of high-priestly and royal race …And this Alexander, one of the anointed and ruling princes placed the crown on his own head ...After this a foreign king, Herod, and those who were no longer of the family of David, assumed the crown." The king mentioned was Alexander Jannaeus who ruled Judea from 103 – 76 BCE.
The only true Intelligensia during the 1st three centuries of Christianity was Origen, and I am not to sure of a person that practices sexual mutilation on themselves in the name of the religion that they practice! This is the top movers, shakers and thinkers of the early (1st, 2nd, and early 3rd centuries) church, not exactly a vote for the validity of the existence of Jesus, most of them seem to have no idea of where he came from, when he was born, when and how he died, who his parents were – almost as if he never existed, Huh?
It surely is a tad more than curious than none of the other documents more or less contemporary with Paul's epistles – The Shepherd of Hermas, the Didache, 1 Clement, the Book of Revelation, the epistle to the Hebrews, and the epistle of Barnabas, – say anything from the "Jesus of Nazareth" fairy tale known to every child today. Is it not more than reasonable to suggest that at this stage the story had not yet been fabricated?
Then we have the question, “How many Christians were there in the first two centuries?” ‘Popular’ Christian histories propagate that, surely and steadily, Christianity won the hearts and minds of the Greco-Roman world. Many feature a map showing churches dotted across the Middle East and Europe, as if the most important feature of a city like Alexandria or Ephesus in late antiquity was its Christian meeting place! It all helps to conjure up an image of a substantially Christianized population, one poised to topple the nasty pagan rulers and inaugurate a Christian Europe. But there is no truth in this fanciful idea.
One scholar’s estimate for the number of Christians at the beginning of the 2nd century – and this number is spread across numerous conflicting factions – is rather modest:
‘The total number of Christians within the empire was probably less than fifty thousand, an infinitesimal number in a society comprising sixty million.’

– Wilken (The Christians as the Romans Saw Them, p31)

This 50,000 compares to, say, four to five million Jews.
The Christians were loosely organised in groups ranging from perhaps a few dozen to a several hundred, in perhaps forty to fifty cities, mainly in the eastern empire.
Another writer’s estimate for the city of Rome is quite illuminating:
‘There are about 25,000 known burial places in the Catacombs of Rome. As these sites were used for nearly 300 years, that would mean on average about eighty burials a year.
If one assumes a lifespan of forty years, the average Christian population in Rome over this period would not have been more than four thousand people at any one time.
This was out of a total Roman population of well over a million.’

– Roberts (In Search of Early Christian Unity, p19)
One estimate for Jews in 1st century Rome (Lambert, Beloved and God) is 60-90,000. Thus, less than a tenth of Rome’s population were Jews, and less than a tenth of Jews were Christians!
In so far as officialdom noticed the Christians at all, it was as unlicensed hetaeria (associations), which might be harmless burial societies but might also be ‘political clubs’ agitating social discord.
Quite simply, at the onset of the second century, most citizens of the empire had never even heard of Christianity!

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Despite all of the ancient persecutions I don't recall any claim that "Jesus the man" was ficticious because in those times there was overwhelming proof he lived.

As I have demonstrated, for the first century or two, there were very few Christians and even those that existed had little if any knowledge of a living Jesus. This coupled with no contemporary mention by chroniclers that lived in the area at the same time (contemporary, not contemporaneous) show that the case for a historical Jesus is very weak.

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It is only modern skeptics that can make this claim 2000 years after the fact, when virtually all the documents of the ancient world are gone.

Actually, thanks to the Moslems of the 7th century on, we have quite a few of the ancient documents preserved. Strangely, the ones that were preserved by the Christians were only those that either they inserted material into or had other uses. It is almost like the Church destroyed the evidence, isn't it? What were they hiding? Could it be that they were hiding the non-existence of their supposed founder?

This post has been edited by mako: 11 October 2005 - 04:21 PM