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Dinosaurs & Humans


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#31    draconic chronicler

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Posted 16 October 2005 - 02:46 PM

Frogfish,
Your reply reveals that you clearly don't know enough about this subject to even discuss it  with me.  If your biblical knowledge is based on nothing but "Sunday School stories" and "modern" bibles which have been edited for centuries to satisfy each new emerging Christian cult, you haven't heard of half the things I am talking about.  There are numerous other Jewish and early Christian texts which supplement the the Bible and make more sense of it, particularly about the Seraphim and Cherubim dragons.  Biblical Dragons including Satan were intended to be frightening, terrible things, but this does not make them "evil".  They are like our "Police" today, sometimes seeming intimidating, but not "evil" to "law abiding citizens" as heavenly dragons were harmless to the righteous.   But yes, as world wide legends attest, they are far from "harmless" to peoples whose practices are abhorrent to God.  There are references of them devouring humans in both biblical contexts, and the majority of dragon legends around the world.... it's a "dragon thing".

If you are really interested in how dragons really relate to the Bible, I suggest you read my book.  You will even discover where in the Bible Moses was partially swallowed by a Seraphim Dragon, and what saved him and ordered the dragon to spew him out.  You will also see when the dragon in the Jonah story was changed from a dragon to a "great fish".  I bet you don't even know that EVERY depiction of Jonah being swallowed depicted in ancient times portrays a seraphim dragon, and NOT a fish or whale. The description of a 7 headed dragon in Revelation is of course symbolic, because it was intended to represent Rome with its seven hills.
But ancient Christains fully understood Satan himself was a one headed Seraphim dragon as verified by ancient Christian church mosaics and other artwork.  As I said before, that whole bit about the dragon wrapped in chains, locked in the abbyss, etc. is stolen directly from Zorastrian religious texts that are hundreds of years older.  This isn't religion bashing, it is stating historical facts.  

I am not "bashing" any religion, just stating undisputable facts about the pagan origins of the Christianity of today, and far harsher stuff goes on every day in the "Sprituality and Religion" section of UM.  Believe it or not, it is possible to be a Christian, and NOT believe in all the false texts copied from pagan religions which the new testament is filled with.  Its not Jesus' fault that his pagan recruits perverted his teachings with the nonsense they added about pagan greek demons, everlasting torture in pagan greek hades, and denigrating the highest heavenly servants with Zorastrian persian "dragon-bashing".  But it is for these reasons that He probably  did not return in their lifetime, as it clearly states he would, in at least five different  new testament scriptures.  When a scripture predicts something that doesn't come true, then it is a "false" scripture.  A simple concept, really.

But this is completely off-topic now.  But to return to it, I would reiterate that dinosaurs and humans could never have coexisted becasue they are seperated by 65 million years, and no fossil evidence exists of them living after that time.  Nor is their any evidence od men living in the time of dinosuars.  The only mammals around then were tiny, primitive things.  However, if the God of the Bible is real, that theology clearly states that the highest heavenly creatures are dinosaur-like, fearsome flying reptiles commonly called "dragons" that virtually every human culture in the world claims to have lived in the time of their ancestors.  But the fact that there are no "dragon fossils" despite the untold number of sightings and legends only proves the point.  If these dragons are the Seraphim of the Bible, they never die so their bones will never be found.

Edited by draconic chronicler, 16 October 2005 - 03:43 PM.


#32    FrothyDog

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Posted 16 October 2005 - 03:59 PM

am i the only person bothered by the "it's only a theory" response?  it takes a lot of testing to get fron a hypothesis to a theory.  gravity too is just a theory, and we know a lot more about evolution than we do about gravity.

intelligent design, however, is not only untested, it is untestable.  no hypothesis can be formed, and therefore no theory can be formed.  it has no place in science because it is untestable by scientific means.

and as for the earlier comment on human fetuses resembling daffodils, whoa.  i didn't know that daffodils had fetuses.  do the daffodil mommies raise them in their daffodil bellies for nine months?  do the daffodil daddies share the feeding and diaper changing?  just to give you an idea of how silly that whole thing was...




#33    frogfish

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Posted 16 October 2005 - 04:03 PM

you saying Satan as a good dragon goes against all of Christianity from its earliest beginnings to today! Why was the concept of sin created if Satan was good? Why was there preching to proclaim good if Satan was good. Why is their evil today if Satan was good! What you are saying about Satan being good goes against all religion...the only good point of that is to prove that dragons exist. With you knowledge of early text, i would of though that you would of come up with a more sensible answer...

If you read ancien text, it proclaims dragons as the highest of all creatures, then why don't modern bibles proclaim them good...the Saint John proclaimed them as unholy...they are the followers of Satan. Ancient text depicted God and the Holy Spirit on the Passover, not dragons.
Satan does not always take the form of a dragon....and if you said scholars changed ancient text to "dragon-bash" then why did they leave him as a dragon-like creature in Genesis...when he tempted Eve?

Jesus never said he would return in their life-time...that is not a false scripture. If you knew, he said he would return at the end of time...on Judgement Day.

Again, what you're saying about the Christian Bible changing to fit each new cult is just what you want to happen to support dragons...Satan was evil before the creation of time. You want to know why dragons are depicted evil, because they were followers of Satan. Its simple. They were the fallen "heavenly beings" that sided with Lucifer during the war. Dragons were never depicted good in the bible. There is a reason for that...and no, its not cults.

Ok, Back on topic. There is no way that humans could of lived alongside dinosaurs. there is no evidence in the fosil record.

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#34    zandore

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Posted 16 October 2005 - 08:08 PM

QUOTE(FrothyDog)
am i the only person bothered by the "it's only a theory" response? it takes a lot of testing to get fron a hypothesis to a theory. gravity too is just a theory, and we know a lot more about evolution than we do about gravity.
True!

Quote

intelligent design, however, is not only untested, it is untestable. no hypothesis can be formed, and therefore no theory can be formed. it has no place in science because it is untestable by scientific means.
Again true. In my profile you can read this:
Evolution is both fact and theory.
Creationism is neither.

And in my SIG today you will see this:
"Creationism is not the alternative to Evolution, ignorance is".
John Stear


Quote

and as for the earlier comment on human fetuses resembling daffodils, whoa. i didn't know that daffodils had fetuses. do the daffodil mommies raise them in their daffodil bellies for nine months? do the daffodil daddies share the feeding and diaper changing? just to give you an idea of how silly that whole thing was...
thumbsup.gif

That is the first time I ever heard of the daffodil thing! rolleyes.gif
Ash left out though that in the fetus development there is a stage that the fetus does have a....TAIL.

Daffodils!  

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#35    The Skeptic Eric Raven

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Posted 16 October 2005 - 08:41 PM

Just for the record. Dragons do not EXIST. Just because they appear in different cultures does not prove their existence. Someone just wants to sell some books.

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#36    zandore

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Posted 16 October 2005 - 08:48 PM

The only place they have ever existed has been in peoples imagination. thumbsup.gif
Some people do not know where reality stops and their dreams begin. wacko.gif

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#37    The Skeptic Eric Raven

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Posted 16 October 2005 - 08:54 PM

Quote


The only place they have ever existed has been in peoples imagination. thumbsup.gif
Some people do not know where reality stops and their dreams begin. wacko.gif

Thank you sir. thumbsup.gif

........the sleeper has awoken!
Sometimes we need a kick in the butt to wake us up. Well, I'm up now!Boo ya.


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#38    zandore

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Posted 16 October 2005 - 09:02 PM

Stating the truth as I see it.

I may have a very good imagination but I have a stronger grip on reality.

"A man's ethical behavior should be based effectually on sympathy,
education, and social ties; no religious basis is necessary.
Man would indeed be in a poor way if he had to be restrained by fear
of punishment and hope of reward after death."

Albert Einstein


Survey Says....


#39    DemonWatcher

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Posted 16 October 2005 - 10:25 PM

Quote


you saying Satan as a good dragon goes against all of Christianity from its earliest beginnings to today! Why was the concept of sin created if Satan was good? Why was there preching to proclaim good if Satan was good. Why is their evil today if Satan was good! What you are saying about Satan being good goes against all religion...the only good point of that is to prove that dragons exist. With you knowledge of early text, i would of though that you would of come up with a more sensible answer...

If you read ancien text, it proclaims dragons as the highest of all creatures, then why don't modern bibles proclaim them good...the Saint John proclaimed them as unholy...they are the followers of Satan. Ancient text depicted God and the Holy Spirit on the Passover, not dragons.
Satan does not always take the form of a dragon....and if you said scholars changed ancient text to "dragon-bash" then why did they leave him as a dragon-like creature in Genesis...when he tempted Eve?

Jesus never said he would return in their life-time...that is not a false scripture. If you knew, he said he would return at the end of time...on Judgement Day.

Again, what you're saying about the Christian Bible changing to fit each new cult is just what you want to happen to support dragons...Satan was evil before the creation of time. You want to know why dragons are depicted evil, because they were followers of Satan. Its simple. They were the fallen "heavenly beings" that sided with Lucifer during the war. Dragons were never depicted good in the bible. There is a reason for that...and no, its not cults.

Ok, Back on topic. There is no way that humans could of lived alongside dinosaurs. there is no evidence in the fosil record.

you are placing Satan in the place of Lucifer, COMPLETELY different beings, Satan was the angel who went back and forth between the realms to report on what humans were being bad, it was he who told god of the watchers betrayal, though he ended up with them only because he was never really an angel, but a lesser angel.

I am a Watcher by birth, and so it should not surprise any when my observations are truthful.

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And irritate the h**l out of the living.~ Golden Hawk

#40    draconic chronicler

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Posted 16 October 2005 - 11:43 PM

Zandore, Eric, the existence of dragons is based on the premise that a "creator being" also exists for the two are inseperably connected.  And there are many respected scientists far more knowledgeable than the two of you who who can see a compatibility betwen much of the bible and an earth billions of years old, and life shaped by evolution.  When we consider all of the wacky creation stories from around the world, it is quite remarkable that the Bible mentions life beginning in the sea, fish, followed by great monsters, (dinosaurs,( birds, animals )mammals, and lastly man.  Yes there are some inaccuracies too, but we must remember that for hundreds of years these stories were an oral tradition and subject to error.

Frogfish,
It has been largely accepted now that Lucifer never existed.  It was a Christian invention based on an evil Babylonian king.  The passage had nothing to do with fallen angels, watchers, etc.  You can find proof of this in a dozen books and internet sites, even here on UM.  Lucifer is a latin name anyway, that couldn't possibly appear in  hebrew scriptures of that age.

There is also no question that Seraphim and Cherubim  are fire spewing, winged dragons.  They even appear on sacred Jewish religious temple furnishings, in addition to depictions of Johah being swallowed, early Christain mosaics, etc.  And of course, these same dragons appear all over the world in other legends, rock art, etc.  

Satan is not placed in the Garden of Eden until the New Testament.  And in the book of Job, there is no hint of him perpetrating any wrongdoing in said Garden.  He is still a trustworthy servant creature which God entrusts to important missions.  He would later send this same dragon to test Jesus in the desert.

The "evil" Satan was a necessity for the Christains who turned the Judaic monotheism into a near-pagan dualistic religion with a non-exisitant battle of good against evil in imitation of Zorastrianism, with numerous aspects of pagan Greek mythology thrown in for good measure, like demons, Hades, etc.

When you understand that Lucifer was a Christain invention, the Old Testament scriptures make far more sense.  For they do say all of God's creations were "good" which would include Satan and all of the other dragons.  There is no such thing as the "War in Heaven".  All that happened was some of the human-like messenger angels desired to have sex with human women.  That's it.  And they were destroyed by the dragons for disobeying God.  

Christians turned this minor incident into a "War in Heaven" to go hand in hand with their imitation of Zorastrian beliefs which also had an evil dragon, Ahriman, in perpetual war with the good God Ahura Mazda. Like I said before, the christains stole from this pagan theology so blatantly that Satan shared the identical fate of the Zorastrian "bad dragon"as recorded in the book of Revlation, though the Persian version is hundreds of years earlier..  It is incredible that so many christians are so brainwashed to believe everything they are told, that they don't realized their religion is a rip-off of all the popular Pagan religions of the Roman empire.  And guess what?  It worked! That's why it is still so powerful today.   Even though it is not the religion Jesus preached (Judaism), and probably why he never returned when he siad he would.

Please don't argue these points.  Go to the Spirituality section of UM, and read the  hundreds of threads that document everything I said here, quoting every scripture as appropriate..

In short, the early Christians did not follow the beliefs of Jesus, but used his name in a religion of their own invention that took all of the accepted themes and gimmicks of the popular pagan religions of their day, and said it was the word of God.  And the Christians who have followed this pagan blasphemy ever  since have been slaughtering each other and everyone else in the world in the name of Jesus.  They blame their own evil on Satan, which curiously, is not guilty of any wrongdoing in the Old Testament scriptures ( which Jesus himself endorsed as the word of God). This was all invented by the "Christians" to have a "bad dragon god" just like the Zorastrian persians.  You seem to forget Jesus was a pious Jew who had no intention of founding a new religion full of Pagan Greek and Persian theologies.

Edited by draconic chronicler, 17 October 2005 - 01:38 AM.


#41    DemonWatcher

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Posted 17 October 2005 - 01:02 AM

Quote


Zandore, Eric, the existence of dragons is based on the premise that a "creator being" also exists for the two are inseperably connected.  And there are many respected scientists for more knowledgeable than the two of you who who can see a compatibility betwen much of the bible and an earth billions of years old, and life shaped by evolution.  When we consider all of the wacky creation stories from around the world, it is quite remarkable that the Bible mentions life beginning in the sea, fish, followed by great monsters, (dinosaurs,( birds, animals )mammals, and lastly man.  Yes there are some inaccuracies too, but we must remember that for hundreds of years these stories were an oral tradition and subject to error.

Frogfish,
It has been largely accepted now that Lucifer never existed.  It was a Christian invention based on an evil Babylonian king.  The passage had nothing to do with fallen angels, watchers, etc.  You can find proof of this in a dozen books and internet sites, even here on UM.  Lucifer is a latin name anyway, that couldn't possibly appear in  hebrew scriptures of that age.

There is also no question that Seraphim and Cherubim  are fire spewing, winged dragons.  They even appear on sacred Jewish religious temple furnishings, in addition to depictions of Johah being swallowed, early Christain mosaics, etc.  And of course, these same dragons appear all over the world in other legends, rock art, etc.  

Satan is not placed in the Garden of Eden until the New Testament.  And in the book of Job, there is no hint of him perpetrating any wrongdoing in said Garden.  He is still a trustworthy servant creature which God entrusts to important missions.  He would later send this same dragon to test Jesus in the desert.

The "evil" Satan was a necessity for the Christains who turned the Judaic monotheism into a near-pagan dualistic religion with a non-exisitant battle of good against evil in imitation of Zorastrianism, with numerous aspects of pagan Greek mythology thrown in for good measure, like demons, Hades, etc.

When you understand that Lucifer was a Christain invention, the Old Testament scriptures make far more sense.  For they do say all of God's creations were "good" which would include Satan and all of the other dragons.  There is no such thing as the "War in Heaven".  All that happened was some of the human-like messenger angels desired to have sex with human women.  That's it.  And they were destroyed by the dragons for disobeying God.  

Christians turned this minor incident into a "War in Heaven" to go hand in hand with their imitation of Zorastrian beliefs which also had an evil dragon, Ahriman, in perpetual war with the good God Ahura Mazda. Like I said before, the christains stole from this pagan theology so blatantly that Satan shared the identical fate of the Zorastrian "bad dragon"as recorded in the book of Revlation, though the Persian version is hundreds of years earlier..  It is incredible that so many christians are so brainwashed to believe everything they are told, that they don't realized their religion is a rip-off of all the popular Pagan religions of the Roman empire.  And guess what?  It worked! That's why it is still so powerful today.   Even though it is not the religion Jesus preached (Judaism), and probably why he never returned when he siad he would.

Please don't argue these points.  Go to the Spirituality section of UM, and read the  hundreds of threads that document everything I said here, quoting every scripture as appropriate..

In short, the early Christians did not follow the beliefs of Jesus, but used his name in a religion of their own invention that took all of the accepted themes and gimmicks of the popular pagan religions of their day, and said it was the word of God.  And the Christians who have followed this pagan blasphemy ever  since have been slaughtering each other and everyone else in the world in the name of Jesus.  They blame their own evil on Satan, which curiously, is not guilty of any wrongdoing in the Old Testament scriptures ( which Jesus himself endorsed as the word of God). This was all invented by the "Christians" to have a "bad dragon god" just like the Zorastrian persians.  You seem to forget Jesus was a pious Jew who had no intention of founding a new religion full of Pagan Greek and Persian theologies.

wow, thanks for the clarification, i had forgotten that fact.
What name would be the Hebrew analog to the christian Lucifer?

Edited by DemonWatcher, 17 October 2005 - 01:03 AM.

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#42    draconic chronicler

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Posted 17 October 2005 - 01:37 AM

DW, I haven't commited the name to memory for it is unimportant, as it has no bearing on anything since it was just a Babylonian King, and the Bible is filled with that kind of thing.  But you can quickly find the info on many websites if you type in "Lucifer and mistranslation or mistranslated".  This was discussed in detail on UM in the Spiritual/Religous sections too.


#43    indeed

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Posted 17 October 2005 - 05:10 AM

Quote


This was discussed in detail on UM in the Spiritual/Religous sections too.


Quote

Please don't argue these points. Go to the Spirituality section of UM, and read the hundreds of threads that document everything I said here, quoting every scripture as appropriate



Yes, so why are you talking about it here ?


#44    draconic chronicler

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Posted 17 October 2005 - 11:01 AM

Because the thread is about the coexistence of humans and dinosaurs, and believe it or not, dragon legends are connected with these beliefs. Read the whole thread and it will all be made clear.


#45    indeed

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Posted 17 October 2005 - 11:16 AM

According to you, and let my guess all will be revealed in your book  w00t.gif


Im mostly talking about you religious content in your last two posts, this is not the section for it.  original.gif

Edited by indeed, 17 October 2005 - 11:23 AM.





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