285 replies to this topic

[zandore]

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Zandore, Eric, the existence of dragons is based on the premise that a "creator being" also exists for the two are inseperably connected.  And there are many respected scientists far more knowledgeable than the two of you who who can see a compatibility betwen much of the bible and an earth billions of years old, and life shaped by evolution.  When we consider all of the wacky creation stories from around the world, it is quite remarkable that the Bible mentions life beginning in the sea, fish, followed by great monsters, (dinosaurs,( birds, animals )mammals, and lastly man.

The religion (just one of many religions) you refer to is not a good one to use as an example.

18 And the LORD God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him.
19 And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof.

This account shows, man before any beasts.

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  Yes there are some inaccuracies too, but we must remember that for hundreds of years these stories were an oral tradition and subject to error.

Yes very many!

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Frogfish,
It has been largely accepted now that Lucifer never existed.  It was a Christian invention based on an evil Babylonian king.

It makes one stop and wonder what all was made up in the Bible.

Please don't argue these points.  Go to the Spir

scripture as appropriate..

You should have saved them (your points) for that section.

You seem to forget Jesus was a pious Jew who had no intention of f

[TheEssenceofExcellence]

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Zandore, Eric, the existence of dragons is based on the premise that a "creator being" also exists for the two are inseperably connected.  And there are many respected scientists far more knowledgeable than the two of you who who can see a compatibility betwen much of the bible and an earth billions of years old, and life shaped by evolution.  When we consider all of the wacky creation stories from around the world, it is quite remarkable that the Bible mentions life beginning in the sea, fish, followed by great monsters, (dinosaurs,( birds, animals )mammals, and lastly man.  Yes there are some inaccuracies too, but we must remember that for hundreds of years these stories were an oral tradition and subject to error.

Frogfish,
It has been largely accepted now that Lucifer never existed.  It was a Christian invention based on an evil Babylonian king.  The passage had nothing to do with fallen angels, watchers, etc.  You can find proof of this in a dozen books and internet sites, even here on UM.  Lucifer is a latin name anyway, that couldn't possibly appear in  hebrew scriptures of that age.

There is also no question that Seraphim and Cherubim  are fire spewing, winged dragons.  They even appear on sacred Jewish religious temple furnishings, in addition to depictions of Johah being swallowed, early Christain mosaics, etc.  And of course, these same dragons appear all over the world in other legends, rock art, etc.  

Satan is not placed in the Garden of Eden until the New Testament.  And in the book of Job, there is no hint of him perpetrating any wrongdoing in said Garden.  He is still a trustworthy servant creature which God entrusts to important missions.  He would later send this same dragon to test Jesus in the desert.

The "evil" Satan was a necessity for the Christains who turned the Judaic monotheism into a near-pagan dualistic religion with a non-exisitant battle of good against evil in imitation of Zorastrianism, with numerous aspects of pagan Greek mythology thrown in for good measure, like demons, Hades, etc.

When you understand that Lucifer was a Christain invention, the Old Testament scriptures make far more sense.  For they do say all of God's creations were "good" which would include Satan and all of the other dragons.  There is no such thing as the "War in Heaven".  All that happened was some of the human-like messenger angels desired to have sex with human women.  That's it.  And they were destroyed by the dragons for disobeying God.  

Christians turned this minor incident into a "War in Heaven" to go hand in hand with their imitation of Zorastrian beliefs which also had an evil dragon, Ahriman, in perpetual war with the good God Ahura Mazda. Like I said before, the christains stole from this pagan theology so blatantly that Satan shared the identical fate of the Zorastrian "bad dragon"as recorded in the book of Revlation, though the Persian version is hundreds of years earlier..  It is incredible that so many christians are so brainwashed to believe everything they are told, that they don't realized their religion is a rip-off of all the popular Pagan religions of the Roman empire.  And guess what?  It worked! That's why it is still so powerful today.   Even though it is not the religion Jesus preached (Judaism), and probably why he never returned when he siad he would.

Please don't argue these points.  Go to the Spirituality section of UM, and read the  hundreds of threads that document everything I said here, quoting every scripture as appropriate..

In short, the early Christians did not follow the beliefs of Jesus, but used his name in a religion of their own invention that took all of the accepted themes and gimmicks of the popular pagan religions of their day, and said it was the word of God.  And the Christians who have followed this pagan blasphemy ever  since have been slaughtering each other and everyone else in the world in the name of Jesus.  They blame their own evil on Satan, which curiously, is not guilty of any wrongdoing in the Old Testament scriptures ( which Jesus himself endorsed as the word of God). This was all invented by the "Christians" to have a "bad dragon god" just like the Zorastrian persians.  You seem to forget Jesus was a pious Jew who had no intention of founding a new religion full of Pagan Greek and Persian theologies.

I know this isn't a religious form, but since everyone else has already brank it up I thought I'd post about it one last time...

First of all, if Satan is a Dragon why don't you point out ANY religious text that says that? (other than Revelations that merely states he takes the form of one)  So that myself and everyone else can read it for ourselves.  If you can't I'd say that all your doing is speculating...

You've also said that Seraphim and Cherubim Angels are reptilian dragons.....where is that ever stated in ANY religious text?  Please point them out if they exist.

Right now i'm looking at the list of the 9 Choirs of Angels.  The first Hierarchy is as follows:  1.  Seraphim  2.  Cherubim  3.  Thrones          The second Hierarchy is as follows:   4.  Dominions (or Dominations)  5.  Virtues  6.  Powers     The third Hierarchy is as follows:  7.  Principalities  8.  ArchAngels  9.  Angels (guardians angels, those concerned with matters that affect individuals).

Now, in the description of Seraphim it says (and I quote) "The highest order of angels.  They guard God's throne and contemplate His goodness directly.  They are referred to as the "burning ones" because they are aflame with love for God, which they express by constantly singing, "Holy, holy, holy is the Lord of Hosts; the whole earth is full of his glory."  Isaiah envisioned them as having six wings."      No where in that description are they referred to as being dragons or dragon like.

As far as Cherubims go they are described as having four faces and four wings, they aren't described as being dragon like......  Further more it is said that a Cherubim guards the gate of Eden holding a flaming sword.  If Cherubims are Dragons that used to come down and destroy the unworthy why would they need a sword to guard the gate of Eden?

Now i'm not saying that they might not be some what reptilian like (I've never seen one for myself).....but I haven't read anything that states they're dragons.

On a last note, you yourself has agreed that the word in the bible many have said could refer to dinosaurs actually means dragons........so, why doesn't scripture refer to satan using that descriptive word in the bible that means dragon???  If he was originally a dragon wouldn't they use that word to describe him to clear everything up?

Edited by TheEssenceofExcellence, 17 October 2005 - 02:26 PM.

[DemonWatcher]

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DW, I haven't commited the name to memory for it is unimportant, as it has no bearing on anything since it was just a Babylonian King, and the Bible is filled with that kind of thing.  But you can quickly find the info on many websites if you type in "Lucifer and mistranslation or mistranslated".  This was discussed in detail on UM in the Spiritual/Religous sections too.

thanks

[DemonWatcher]

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I know this isn't a religious form, but since everyone else has already brank it up I thought I'd post about it one last time...

First of all, if Satan is a Dragon why don't you point out ANY religious text that says that? (other than Revelations that merely states he takes the form of one)  So that myself and everyone else can read it for ourselves.  If you can't I'd say that all your doing is speculating...

You've also said that Seraphim and Cherubim Angels are reptilian dragons.....where is that ever stated in ANY religious text?  Please point them out if they exist.

Right now i'm looking at the list of the 9 Choirs of Angels.  The first Hierarchy is as follows:  1.  Seraphim  2.  Cherubim  3.  Thrones          The second Hierarchy is as follows:   4.  Dominions (or Dominations)  5.  Virtues  6.  Powers     The third Hierarchy is as follows:  7.  Principalities  8.  ArchAngels  9.  Angels (guardians angels, those concerned with matters that affect individuals).

Now, in the description of Seraphim it says (and I quote) "The highest order of angels.  They guard God's throne and contemplate His goodness directly.  They are referred to as the "burning ones" because they are aflame with love for God, which they express by constantly singing, "Holy, holy, holy is the Lord of Hosts; the whole earth is full of his glory."  Isaiah envisioned them as having six wings."      No where in that description are they referred to as being dragons or dragon like.

As far as Cherubims go they are described as having four faces and four wings, they aren't described as being dragon like......  Further more it is said that a Cherubim guards the gate of Eden holding a flaming sword.  If Cherubims are Dragons that used to come down and destroy the unworthy why would they need a sword to guard the gate of Eden?

Now i'm not saying that they might not be some what reptilian like (I've never seen one for myself).....but I haven't read anything that states they're dragons.

On a last note, you yourself has agreed that the word in the bible many have said could refer to dinosaurs actually means dragons........so, why doesn't scripture refer to satan using that descriptive word in the bible that means dragon???  If he was originally a dragon wouldn't they use that word to describe him to clear everything up?

if you can can translate Hebrew, you will know, read the texts that the old testament in based upon, in its original Hebrew, it is in there. Believe me i have looked and had translated(took a long time), but it is there.

[frogfish]

hey, if you say the bible ha sbeen subjest to oral error, why can;t "dragons" be misintrepretated during ancient times...they could of been demons of Satan, and the people could of described them reptilian-like....add a few errors like you say, and voila! The dragon is born...

[draconic chronicler]

You are exactly right DW, Essence is merely swallowing the BS dished out by his priestly "handlers".  They have perverted the Bible.  It is beyond any disupute that Seraphim mean in Hebrew flying, fiery serpents, not "shining ones".  Many christians have molded the bible into the pat fairy tale they want it to be and ignore what it really says.

It is too much to explain now Essence, but people who have already read my book find the information undebateable.  The highest servants of the Judao Christian theologies are fire spewing, man eating, winged reptilian dragons. Satan never "turned" into one, he always was one, and led the heavenly host of these creatures, and there is no biblical evidence of any of them rebelling from God.  This is also a Christian invention to make their religion dualistic like the popular pagan relgions of the day.  When I say there are ancient Christain church mosaics that portray God on a throne of living dragons that devour sinners, I am not making it up. These photos will be pictured in my book.  As for the singing Seraphim in Isaiah, the same creatures are called singing DRAGONS in the books of Psalms.  This is in real bibles for centuries, but maybe not in your fake bible rewritten for modern Christain sensibilities.  The reality of the Bible had been sugar coated for modern Christian "sunday school" audience.  

The reason Jesus never returned is probably because the Christians have so turned His teaching into just another pagan religion, and by blapheming the highest heavenly creatures, they so blaspheme against God himself.

Edited by draconic chronicler, 17 October 2005 - 11:52 PM.

[frogfish]

no, he didnt return because he said he will at the end of time!

[draconic chronicler]

Sorry frogfish, there are at least five NT passages stating that Jesus would return in the same generation of his disciples.  This has been mentioned many times in the spirituality and religion sections of UM.e.  I am not good at cutting and pasting so will let you look it up.   Even in Revelation it says "very soon". You can find this very quickly on dozens of "sceptic" websites, but I assure you the verses are real.  If they are not in your Bible, it is because modern men have changed the wording in many Bibles to suit their own agendas.  You can put on blinders and deny it, but it will not change the original scriptures, just like the fact that the highest heavenly creatures are dragons.  I don't know why you are so uptight about this since you like dinosaurs so much.  Why do you think this should make Seraphim "evil" if they look reptilian?  In the orient dragons are looked upon as benificent creatures.  In the earliest Christian Saint stories, like St. Simeon, he heals an injured dragon!  Jesus told his disciples to be "wise as dragons", (though this was mistranslated to mean regular serpents, which is ridiculous.)

Dragons were sent to punish people, and over the years the idea changed from their actually punishing sinful people under the command of God to simply being evil monsters roaming the Earth.  Priests frightened people with dragons so they would worship God more ferverently.

Cherubim are dragons as well, though there are some bizaare passages that suggest they are strange four faced creatures, and this is explained in my book. These are symbolic creatures called Hayyot, and not the Cherubim guardian dragons  There are many errors in the Bible. for example, Cherubim dragons would have no need for swords, and besides, it would be thousands of years before a sword was first invented.  But what is clear is the fact that "dragons" guarded these sacred trees, which is why dragons guard sacred trees in many other cultures.  Think about the golden fleece that could restore life, guarded by a dragon that was the servant/pet of the Greek God Aries.  And there are many others in which a dragon guarding a sacred tree, all having their origins in the original mesopotamian story in which the Eden story is also copied with some inaccuracies.  This is why we know Satan never deceived Eve, which is already clear in the Old Testament, but "added" to the New Testament to make Christianity a dualistic "good and evil" pagan-like religon.  These "covering Cherubs" are depicted as dragons guarding God's throne as well, and sometimes their bodies literally are the throne as I mentioned in another post.

The notion that cherubim are reptilian creatures is not limited to Judaism and Christianity either.  In many Egyptian depictions of their Gods and Pharoahs, the covering cherubs are giant cobras.  In no case, in either Hebrew or Egyptian theology, are these covering Cherubs, either 4 faced monstrosities or fat little baby angels, they are always giant serpents or dragons.  God even rides on their backs in two biblical passages, and when these are depicted in art, the Cherubim are winged reptilian dragons.  

St. John's description of Satan being defeated by the archangel Michael in Revelation is complete nonsense, for it is simply stolen Zorastrian doctrine written hundred of years later.  In the Zorastrian mythology, the evil dragon is wrapped in chains and cast into an abyss for 1000 years.  Gee, where have I heard that before?  How can you believe false doctrine written by pagans hundreds of years earlier, copied to the letter by John, and now believed as "the gospel".  Many other Christian  religious texts were not included in the bible.  More people now realize this because of the popularity of the book the Da Vinciv Code, where these "missing books" are discussed.  Revelation should have been thrown away too, because it is filled with false, pagan doctrines simply imitated by St. John, or shoever he really was.

The reason the Zorastrian dragon is "evil" is probably because the legend began with a heavenly seraphim dragon punishing the pagan Persians for some affront against God, or his people.  The christians borrowed much from Zorastrianism, including the idea of an Evil dragon to challenge God, so they picked the dragon of the Bible Satan, because he sought out the inequeities of man, and reported them to God.  This doesn't make him an evil creature.  To say so is a blasphemy against God.

Edited by draconic chronicler, 18 October 2005 - 03:11 AM.

[DemonWatcher]

DC what is your book titled?
is it for sale to the general public?

[draconic chronicler]

DW, It will be available soon both as a book or e-book, and available through Amazon on-line, or the mainstream bookstores.  I will announce it here when its available.  Some things are a bit to controversial for the publisher and have to be ironed out, as well as the title.  I will probably sell them myself, possibly a special version  containing the "forbidden chapters" if it comes to that.  There will be a related website with forum, etc related to the book and biblical dragons, historical sightings, etc, but NOT the modern, nonsensical dragon BS invented by fantasy writers over the past 30 years.

[frogfish]

I don't know when where you got the information that jesus would come back in our lifetime...that is imposssible...he said he would come back at the end of time....maybe as you said, the scripture you read were twisted by tongue...

[Odin11]

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You all know my answer to this.

Now, before you all go ape-crap, do please try t remember that Bush has considered allowing the teaching of Intelligent Design into schools alongside Evolution. Evolution is a merely theory, one day, people will realize that.

Also, might I add, that in some state in the U.S. an IMAX theatre REFUSED to show Evolution documentaries because people were walking out disgusted, they said 'it seems there are more Creationists that Evolutionists'. In that town anyway.

I shall also add there are many different types of Creationism (hence why 'Intelligent Design' is better wording as there are also many different time frames) and Intelligent Design deserves as much credit and respect as any other theory. As many of you already know from a past post I made, thre are scientists who rebuke Evolution as bunk because they themselves have tested it and it can't even pass a chicken far test. They techincally are on neither Creationism or Evolution's side, but because o the rebuke over Evolution they get defamed in every possible way by hardcore Evolutionists worried about losing their jobs.
The latest comeback for Evolution is 'the proof is DNA itself'. Quite the opposite, DNA, with all it's complexity goes in favor of intelligent design, and not an accident of nature. There also, is no hardcore proof for Macro Evolution in DNA (Micro Evolution is not 'owned' by Macro and 'Evolution' itself, it stands on it's own can be used either way. In fact without Micro, Macro wouldn't have a hope in hell of being believed). A human fetus shows similarities to dolphins, dogs, chickens, apes, and get this, a daffodil. Now if you want to claim humans have ancestors in all of the above, you have a real mighty imagination.

Ashley,

People know evolution is a theory, i know i do.

Did you know that about 20% of the humans on earth where born with only 28 teeth because our jaws are too small to hold 32. That's Evolution right there. Given more time and it will be 100%, but it's not fatal to have 32 teeth so it will be a lot of time before it becomes 100%.    

And if you’re going to start talking about that intelligent design crap, do not say that it’s a theory, it’s untestable, has nothing to do with science. Where evolution has everything to do with science. And if you want to teach ID next to evolution then you better teach Flying Spaghetti Monsterism as well. One third time for Intelligent Design, one third time for Flying Spaghetti Monsterism, and one third time for logical conjecture based on overwhelming observable evidence.  

       Go to http://www.venganza.org/ if you don’t know what I’m talking about.

        

[draconic chronicler]

If you want to learn the truth Frogfish, ask that question in the Spirituality and Relgion forum, and you will quickly be provided with the many scriptures that contradict which you apparently were told in "Sunday School".

[TheEssenceofExcellence]

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Cherubim dragons would have no need for swords, and besides, it would be thousands of years before a sword was first invented.

What?  We're not talking about a person with a sword we're talking about an Angel with a sword.  Read Enoch, it tells that Angels came down and brought the knowledge of swords and warfare to man, in other words Angels and God already had swords.  They didn't have to be invented because they already existed prior to that event.

As far as what you said about Revelations happening shortly after it was written......  Seeing as how it was only written a couple thousand years ago, if it came to pass today or in the next few centuries or even a few more thousand years from now (considering the scope of time on Earth, and how old everything is) it would occur in a very short time from when it was written.

[draconic chronicler]

Essence, take the same advice I gave frogfish, pose that question about the time the Apocolypse was supposed to occur in the religion forums and you will see Jesus was supposed to return in that generation of his apostles.  It says that at least five time in the NT and John even says "very soon".  This has been answered before with every scripture cited.

In the time of the first modern man, (stone age) there was no conception of swords. I am familiar with the Enoch text, and even if we accept it as gospel, this was thousands of years later in the bronze age that swords first appear.  But if you know the book of Enoch, you would know that the Guardian Cherubim are described as dragons with snake like heads full of sharp teeth.  It also menitons Gabriel being in charge of the heavenly "dragons", though sometimes refered to as "serpents".  In either case it confirms what I have said all along about dragons being heavenly servants of God.  Do you now see that the Tree of knowledge guarded by cherubim-dragons has evolved into the tree guarding dragns of other cultures?

You do not seem to understand yet that angels are only "messengers" in the heavenly hierarchy.  Why do you think there are dragons mentioned there?  And why does heavnely retribution always include bringing down fire and brimstone, and consuming enemies, (as in fire-spewing, man-eating dragons).  Try putting "two and two" together.  By now you should have been able to find dozens of references that confirm that Seraphim mean "fiery flying serpents/dragons" in the orginal hebrew.  And to keep this on-topic, these dragons undoubtedly saw their origins in some form of dinosaur or pterosaur that was somehow "enhanced" by the creator.  This is also in harmony with the scriptures which state the Seraphim and Cherubim "dragons" were more senior to the human-like angels.  Senior, probably becuase the were much older as well as much more powerful.

If you care to read other apochryphal/lost books like Enoch, you will see many more references to the heavenly dragons.  Try Baruch, for example.  When you understand all of these, you will see the places where they were removed from the Old Testament, as many of  these stories parallel the books of the current Bible.