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I have a question about Islam...


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#1    AdNauseamSuiGeneris

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Posted 17 October 2005 - 08:41 PM

I confess my ignorance of the structurization of Islam, is there some "ruler" of the Faith, similar to the Pope? Because it seems to me that there are just many different Ayatollahs that are spreading messages. I mean just from Iraq, you have these Ayatollahs preaching that all true to the Islamic Faith should attack American forces, or all true to the Islamic Faith should make an attempt to live in peace with them.



If God is willing to prevent evil, but is not able to
Then He is not omnipotent.
If He is able, but not willing
Then He is malevolent.
If He is both able and willing
Then whence cometh evil?
If He is neither able nor willing
Then why call Him God?
-Epicurus

#2    Hitch

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Posted 18 October 2005 - 11:20 PM

I think there is an Imam who is like a preacher..

Not sure about a pope type figure..


I don't think Islam has much to do with peace though..

"Those who follow Muhammad are merciless for the unbelievers but kind to each other." (Qur'an 48:29)

"Fight and slay the pagans wherever ye find them and seize them, confine them, and lie in wait for them in every place of ambush" (Surah 9:5)

"Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the last day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and his apostle nor acknowledge the religion of truth of the people of the Book until they pay the Jizya with willing submission and feel themselves subdued." (Surah 9:29)








#3    AdNauseamSuiGeneris

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Posted 19 October 2005 - 07:33 PM

Quote


I think there is an Imam who is like a preacher..

Not sure about a pope type figure..
I don't think Islam has much to do with peace though..

"Those who follow Muhammad are merciless for the unbelievers but kind to each other." (Qur'an 48:29)

"Fight and slay the pagans wherever ye find them and seize them, confine them, and lie in wait for them in every place of ambush" (Surah 9:5)

"Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the last day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and his apostle nor acknowledge the religion of truth of the people of the Book until they pay the Jizya with willing submission and feel themselves subdued." (Surah 9:29)


Yes, I would tend to agree with you on that Islam is still a very "violent" religion. Not too long ago Christianity was also... I'm sure there are similair quotes in the Bible like those above...

If God is willing to prevent evil, but is not able to
Then He is not omnipotent.
If He is able, but not willing
Then He is malevolent.
If He is both able and willing
Then whence cometh evil?
If He is neither able nor willing
Then why call Him God?
-Epicurus

#4    lp21why

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Posted 19 October 2005 - 07:43 PM

Quote


I don't think Islam has much to do with peace though..

"Those who follow Muhammad are merciless for the unbelievers but kind to each other." (Qur'an 48:29)

"Fight and slay the pagans wherever ye find them and seize them, confine them, and lie in wait for them in every place of ambush" (Surah 9:5)

"Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the last day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and his apostle nor acknowledge the religion of truth of the people of the Book until they pay the Jizya with willing submission and feel themselves subdued." (Surah 9:29)


But you have to remember that no muslim is allowed to attack or harm another human being with intent unless provoked.
Also most muslims are very tolerant of people from other faiths, it is just the extremists who aren't.

"Education: The path from cocky ignorance to miserable uncertainty" - Mark Twain.

#5    Flame Thrower

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Posted 19 October 2005 - 09:54 PM

Islam is a religion of peace, so I got a few verses to back up my opinion.

If anyone slays a person
- unless it be for murder or for spreading mischief in the land -
it would be as if he slew all people.
And if anyone saves a life,
it would be as if he saved the life of all people.
Qur'an 5:32

Therefore we can see that murdering someone is wrong UNLESS they do something wrong, ie murder others or purposely do things that will harm others. Those terrorists who killed innocent people have got it ALL wrong.

Invite all to the way of your Lord with wisdom and beautiful preaching.
And argue with them in ways that are best and most gracious . . .

Here we see that even if you are arguing for the sake of Islam, it must be done with patience and kindness.

And if you punish,
let your punishment be proportional to the wrong that has been done to you.
But if you show patience, that is indeed the best course.
Be patient, for your patience is from God.
And do not grieve over them, or distress yourself because of their plots.
For God is with those who restrain themselves, and those who do good.
Qur'an 16:125-128

Here it speaks about how if you punish someone, let it be fair and just. Therefore, if someone does something to you, you may punish them for it. However patience and forgiveness is indeed the best path to take and God loves those who take that path.

Goodness and evil are not equal.
Repel evil with what is better.
Then that person with whom there was hatred,
may become your intimate friend!
And no one will be granted such goodness
except those who exercise patience and self-restraint,
none but people of the greatest good fortune.
Qur'an 41:34-35

Here we see that the people who are bad to you, etc, should be spoken to correctly and shown the correct way, so that each can find peace with each other and become friends. It also says that only those with patience and self restraint will be granted goodness, that is they are the best in God's eyes.


Here is something else I found, so hope it clears some things up.

The "root" of the word "Islam" in Arabic is SALAMA which is the origin of the words Peace & / or Submission, a submission to God and peace to all humanity. It is, thus, no wonder why the salutation in Islam is: "Al-Salamu Alaikum or Peace on You."
In this regard, Prophet Mohammad ordered his fellow Muslims to salute others Muslims or non-Muslims with peace when he said: "Peace Before Speech"
It is a Rule in Islam that during war time, an enemy warrior who pronounces the word peace is totally immune.

Also..

Verse 60:08 "Allah forbids you not, with regard to those who fight you not for (your) Faith nor drive you out of your homes, from dealing kindly and justly with them: for Allah loveth those who are just."

So maybe that clears some stuff up. I just want to say that Islam preaches peace tons within the Qur'an, and if one is to draw judgement, read it first.
Those who claim to be Muslim then go and kill so many innocent people, will, by the rule of Islam, go to Hell. Simple


Once again, my opinion  so hope it puts forth another idea and view of Islam and the Qu'ran. Thanks.

Peace.
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Since the human body belongs to the material world, it has the tendency to pull us downward to its low earthly origin.

The soul, however, is of Divine nature and has the tendency to pull us upwards to its spiritual origin.

Human life is thus the name of the constant tug of war between the lower bodily and higher spiritual forces.

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#6    Rufio85

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Posted 19 October 2005 - 11:48 PM

Like the Bible, there seems to be conflicting messages at work here as well. In what context is it then right to do what Hitch quoted? Does it state the things Flame thrower quoted in her post in those same passages?

Believe nothing, no matter where you read it, or who said it, no matter if I have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and your own common sense.

#7    Hitch

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Posted 20 October 2005 - 01:18 AM

"Enmity and hatred will reign between us until ye believe in Allah alone." (Qur'an 60:4)




#8    AdNauseamSuiGeneris

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Posted 20 October 2005 - 04:33 AM

Well like I said, it is "still" a violent religion. Christianity used to be too, but for the most part it is no longer. There are no more Crusaders for example. Christianity moved on. Islam has yet to do so. And I doubt it will for several more centuries.

If God is willing to prevent evil, but is not able to
Then He is not omnipotent.
If He is able, but not willing
Then He is malevolent.
If He is both able and willing
Then whence cometh evil?
If He is neither able nor willing
Then why call Him God?
-Epicurus

#9    Zeeshan - (Twisted!)

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Posted 20 October 2005 - 02:57 PM

Well U know me don't U!!!
Well Zeeshan Ahmed here, 14 , Pakistan
Well my Dear Fellows I am a Muslim see Our Religion i-e Islam is a Religion of Peace, Love and Happiness If u take a Look at the Word "Islam" and Try to Look out for it in an Arabic Dictionary it means Salamtee ka Mazhab (Urdu) means the Religion of Peace. Now About the Violence that is caused in this World is mostly being pointed out to Muslims.See Dear Fellows Allah and Mohammad Does not Teaches their Followers to Kill each and every Non-Muslim.No My Dear No.
They are the Extremists who try to do it.

Quote

Islam is an Arabic word meaning Submission, surrender, and obedience. As a religion, Islam stands for complete submission and obedience to God – this is why it is called Islam.

Everyone can see that we live in an orderly universe. There is law and order among all part that make up this universe. Everything is assigned a place in a grand scheme, which is working in a magnificent way. The sun, the moon, all heavenly bodies follow an unalterable law and do not make the slightest deviation from their ordained course, the earth rotates on its axis and in its revolution around the sun follows the path laid out for it in precision, in fact all things from the tiny whirling electron to the mighty galaxies, constantly and ceaselessly follow their own laws. Matter, energy, and life- all obey laws, laws by which they must grow or change, live or die. Even in the human world, the laws of nature are quite obvious. Man’s birth, growth, and life are all regulated by a set of biological laws. These laws are all set by Almighty God. For example, the human tongue, which may, because of his ignorance, advocate the denial of God or state that several gods exist, is by its very nature a ‘Muslim’, submitting and following all the laws placed into its own existence and mechanism of function by Almighty..

Man’s character is such that there are two distinct spheres of his life. In one sphere he finds himself totally regulated by the Divine Law. He cannot budge an inch from it or slip away from its all-embracing control. But there is another sphere of his activity as well. He has been blessed with reason and intelligence. He has the power to think and make judgments, to select or reject, to adopt or spurn. He is free to adopt whatever way of life he chooses, he can select any religion, assume any way of life, and fashion his living according to whatever ideologies he likes. He may prepare his own code of conduct or accept one made by someone else. He has been bestowed with Free Will and can chalk out his own course of behavior. In this respect, he, unlike any other creature, has been given freedom of choice,

In the first aspect of his life, like all other creatures, man is a born Muslim ‘Submitter in English’, constantly obeys the orders of Almighty God, and is bound to remain doing so. As far as the second aspect is concerned, he is free to become or not to become a Muslim. Here is where his gift of choice is operable, and it is the way a person exercises his freedom, which divides mankind into two groups: believers and non-believers. An individual who chooses to recognize his Creator, accepts Him as his real Master, honestly and fully submits to His laws and orders, and follows the system of life He has revealed for man, thereby becomes a complete Muslim. He achieved completeness in his Islam by consciously deciding to obey God through the use of those very abilities of free thought, choice and action that Almighty

I am going to go all out, and believe me when I tell you that I probably would be in trouble if one of those so-called traditional Muslims finds out what I am about to tell you.

There is nothing in the religion of Islam that promotes hatred or killing anyone for any reason they themselves see fit, I believe that a vast number of Muslims have the wrong interpretation of the Quran and worse yet they refer to two other things called Hadith and Sunna, (in English Hadith is a collection of sayings of prophet Muhammad and Sunna is the behavior and actions of the prophets daily life) they (traditional Muslims) consider these two concepts as part of the religion, which in itself is disobeying God and his messenger by following anything other than God’s word.

[Quran 6:114] Shall I seek other than GOD as a source of law, when He has revealed to you this book fully detailed? Those who received the scripture recognize that it has been revealed from your Lord, truthfully. You shall not harbor any doubt.

In fact, I am positive that the prophet had nothing to do with them, those Hadiths “Sayings in English” and Sunna (actions and behavior). Back during the days of the prophet, nobody even dared to say, mention, or write any of those things, since he “the prophet Muhammad” very much stressed to all his followers not to write anything he says unless it’s Quran, and not to follow anything or anybody except the Quran.

The day the prophet died, the Khalifa “Governor” that Muslims elected to lead them after the prophet Muhammad’s death said, “O believers, anybody who worshiped Muhammad, Muhammad is dead, anybody who worshiped God, God is eternal and will not die.” Stressing the fact the God and his word is the only thing that matters and it is what you are expected to follow and it is the ruler by which your life and actions on this earth will be measured and answer to God according to them.

Unfortunately many of these self-proclaimed Muslim scholars quote Hadith and Sunna when it comes to matters of religion, again disobeying God’s messenger telling them not to do so. Hadith which people started recording at least 20-30 years after the prophet’s death, a lot of which in my opinion was forged and claimed to be the prophets with no justification or a logical way of verification.

I am sick and tired of people defacing Islam and the word of God, and making up the formulas of  Muslim = Terrorist and Arab = Terrorist

I also I’m tired of those who say the word Allah sarcastically, the word Allah is the Arabic word for the word "God". Many people including some Muslims believe that "Allah" is the name of the Muslim God. People do not realize that the word "Allah” does not belong exclusively to the Muslims all Christian Arabs and Arab Jews use the term ALLAH to refer to God the Almighty Lord and Creator when they speak Arabic. Insisting on the use of the word "Allah" for God in non-Arabic languages especially in the media immediately creates the illusion that "Allah" is a whole different deity than God of the whole universe and all of its creatures. “A paraphrase from submission.org”

Why doesn’t anybody make fun or say it sarcastically when the Spanish say the word God in their language “Dios”, or how the Germans say God “Gott“ or the French ”Dieu”, or the Italians “Dio”.

Those are a couple of things I wanted to point out, I hope I was helpful in provide some answer to your question.

By the way, I am a Muslim/Palestinian living in North Carolina for the past 13 years, I love this country and this state in particular and I owe them a lot.

I will sign this email with my Alias, since like I said before a lot of people will not be happy to hear what I just said regarding Hadith (Prophet’s sayings) and Sunna (Prophet’s Actions), as a matter of fact, the gentleman who published the ideas, translations, and concepts on the submission.org is said to have been assassinated probably because of those very ideas.

May peace be upon you and us all.



http://www.submission.org/jihad/replies.html



May be This Article Help You in Understanding Islam More...and not Understanding Islam as a Violent Religion.


Thank You

Zeeshan ahmed

captainx32@hotmail.com

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#10    Zeeshan - (Twisted!)

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Posted 20 October 2005 - 03:18 PM

Well My Dear I m Zeeshan 14 yr Old and i liv in Pakistan..
Well ISLAM is NOT the Religion of Violence These are the Extremists who bring such shame to our  Religion.
I Hope Following Article may make ur Wrong Concepts abt Islam Vanish.

Quote


Here is a commentary sent to us by one of our readers describing Islam (Submission).


What is Islam?


Islam is an Arabic word meaning Submission, surrender, and obedience. As a religion, Islam stands for complete submission and obedience to God – this is why it is called Islam.

Everyone can see that we live in an orderly universe. There is law and order among all part that make up this universe. Everything is assigned a place in a grand scheme, which is working in a magnificent way. The sun, the moon, all heavenly bodies follow an unalterable law and do not make the slightest deviation from their ordained course, the earth rotates on its axis and in its revolution around the sun follows the path laid out for it in precision, in fact all things from the tiny whirling electron to the mighty galaxies, constantly and ceaselessly follow their own laws. Matter, energy, and life- all obey laws, laws by which they must grow or change, live or die. Even in the human world, the laws of nature are quite obvious. Man’s birth, growth, and life are all regulated by a set of biological laws. These laws are all set by Almighty God. For example, the human tongue, which may, because of his ignorance, advocate the denial of God or state that several gods exist, is by its very nature a ‘Muslim’, submitting and following all the laws placed into its own existence and mechanism of function by Almighty..

Man’s character is such that there are two distinct spheres of his life. In one sphere he finds himself totally regulated by the Divine Law. He cannot budge an inch from it or slip away from its all-embracing control. But there is another sphere of his activity as well. He has been blessed with reason and intelligence. He has the power to think and make judgments, to select or reject, to adopt or spurn. He is free to adopt whatever way of life he chooses, he can select any religion, assume any way of life, and fashion his living according to whatever ideologies he likes. He may prepare his own code of conduct or accept one made by someone else. He has been bestowed with Free Will and can chalk out his own course of behavior. In this respect, he, unlike any other creature, has been given freedom of choice,

In the first aspect of his life, like all other creatures, man is a born Muslim ‘Submitter in English’, constantly obeys the orders of Almighty God, and is bound to remain doing so. As far as the second aspect is concerned, he is free to become or not to become a Muslim. Here is where his gift of choice is operable, and it is the way a person exercises his freedom, which divides mankind into two groups: believers and non-believers. An individual who chooses to recognize his Creator, accepts Him as his real Master, honestly and fully submits to His laws and orders, and follows the system of life He has revealed for man, thereby becomes a complete Muslim. He achieved completeness in his Islam by consciously deciding to obey God through the use of those very abilities of free thought, choice and action that Almighty

I am going to go all out, and believe me when I tell you that I probably would be in trouble if one of those so-called traditional Muslims finds out what I am about to tell you.

There is nothing in the religion of Islam that promotes hatred or killing anyone for any reason they themselves see fit, I believe that a vast number of Muslims have the wrong interpretation of the Quran and worse yet they refer to two other things called Hadith and Sunna, (in English Hadith is a collection of sayings of prophet Muhammad and Sunna is the behavior and actions of the prophets daily life) they (traditional Muslims) consider these two concepts as part of the religion, which in itself is disobeying God and his messenger by following anything other than God’s word.

[Quran 6:114] Shall I seek other than GOD as a source of law, when He has revealed to you this book fully detailed? Those who received the scripture recognize that it has been revealed from your Lord, truthfully. You shall not harbor any doubt.

In fact, I am positive that the prophet had nothing to do with them, those Hadiths “Sayings in English” and Sunna (actions and behavior). Back during the days of the prophet, nobody even dared to say, mention, or write any of those things, since he “the prophet Muhammad” very much stressed to all his followers not to write anything he says unless it’s Quran, and not to follow anything or anybody except the Quran.

The day the prophet died, the Khalifa “Governor” that Muslims elected to lead them after the prophet Muhammad’s death said, “O believers, anybody who worshiped Muhammad, Muhammad is dead, anybody who worshiped God, God is eternal and will not die.” Stressing the fact the God and his word is the only thing that matters and it is what you are expected to follow and it is the ruler by which your life and actions on this earth will be measured and answer to God according to them.

Unfortunately many of these self-proclaimed Muslim scholars quote Hadith and Sunna when it comes to matters of religion, again disobeying God’s messenger telling them not to do so. Hadith which people started recording at least 20-30 years after the prophet’s death, a lot of which in my opinion was forged and claimed to be the prophets with no justification or a logical way of verification.

I am sick and tired of people defacing Islam and the word of God, and making up the formulas of  Muslim = Terrorist and Arab = Terrorist

I also I’m tired of those who say the word Allah sarcastically, the word Allah is the Arabic word for the word "God". Many people including some Muslims believe that "Allah" is the name of the Muslim God. People do not realize that the word "Allah” does not belong exclusively to the Muslims all Christian Arabs and Arab Jews use the term ALLAH to refer to God the Almighty Lord and Creator when they speak Arabic. Insisting on the use of the word "Allah" for God in non-Arabic languages especially in the media immediately creates the illusion that "Allah" is a whole different deity than God of the whole universe and all of its creatures. “A paraphrase from submission.org”

Why doesn’t anybody make fun or say it sarcastically when the Spanish say the word God in their language “Dios”, or how the Germans say God “Gott“ or the French ”Dieu”, or the Italians “Dio”.

Those are a couple of things I wanted to point out, I hope I was helpful in provide some answer to your question.

By the way, I am a Muslim/Palestinian living in North Carolina for the past 13 years, I love this country and this state in particular and I owe them a lot.

I will sign this email with my Alias, since like I said before a lot of people will not be happy to hear what I just said regarding Hadith (Prophet’s sayings) and Sunna (Prophet’s Actions), as a matter of fact, the gentleman who published the ideas, translations, and concepts on the submission.org is said to have been assassinated probably because of those very ideas.

May peace be upon you and us all.

Please accept my warmest regards and respect,

Nasser V.
  
  



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Source Link: http://www.submission.org/jihad/replies.html



May Allah Bless You Alll
Zeeshan Ahmed
Pakistan

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Thanks to The_Scorpion
“The true mystery of the world is the visible, not the invisible.” ~Oscar Wilde
www.iamzeeshan.blogspot.com
www.twitter.com/ImZeesh

#11    Zeeshan - (Twisted!)

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Posted 22 October 2005 - 05:03 PM

Well My name is Zeeshan ahmed, 14, Pakistan,
Well I am a Muslim (Alhamdu-Lillah) Well in Today's World there are many Mis Conceptions about Islam But to Let You know Islam is a Religion which Teaches you how to Spend your Life on Earth.Everything that is in Quran is Considered and Believed as True Word of Allah (Jalla-Jalala-Hu).But Quran does not Explain Each and Everything in Detail like it is been Ordered in Quran by Allah that Perform Salath Prayers, Keep Rozas etc. but it is not Explained how to perform these things.Our Holy Prophet Mohammad (P.B.U.H) Gave Hadeeses (Hadiths) means explained each and every thing to us he indeed Interpreted true Meaning of Holy Quran
One Thing more According to Quran and Mohammad (P.B.U.H) about 100024 Prophets came to Earth time by time to make the Humans Follow Allah's Teachings, Out of Them Mohammad (P.B.U.H) is Considered as a Blessing to all of them and Considered to be the Last Prophet of Allah. Allah said that Holy Quran is my Book and i will Protect it from Evry body who will try to Modify or Destroy it (Nauz-o-Billah).And from then The Quran is as Pure and Real as it was Given to Mohammad (P.B.U.H).

I Hope this would have Cleaned some Misconceptions on Islam in Ur Mind...

Thank You

Zeeshan Ahmed

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www.iamzeeshan.blogspot.com
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#12    Falco Rex

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Posted 23 October 2005 - 01:45 AM

Quote

confess my ignorance of the structurization of Islam, is there some "ruler" of the Faith, similar to the Pope?


Just to answer the original sentence, there was for hundreds of years a Caliph, who wielded ultimate authority in Islam, much like the Pope does in Catholicism..
This office was hereditary as each man to hold the title had to be a blood descendant of Abu Bakr, the first elected Caliph. Their traditional seat of power was none other than Baghdad..I believe the very last of that line was al-Muta'sim; who was put inside a rolled up carpet and trampled to death by the invading and conquering Mongols..
Since then several factions have tried to revive the office, but never with the authority or respect of the original..
This is why Imams and scholars have started so many factions..There's no central authority figure to reprimand them for thier interpretation..


But..This is History of the top of my head, so if I've got the wrong Caliph there feel free to correct..

Edited by Falco Rex, 23 October 2005 - 03:46 AM.


#13    Zeeshan - (Twisted!)

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Posted 23 October 2005 - 11:24 AM


Well My name is Zeeshan ahmed, 14, Pakistan,
Well I am a Muslim (Alhamdu-Lillah) Well in Today's World there are many Mis Conceptions about Islam But to Let You know Islam is a Religion which Teaches you how to Spend your Life on Earth.Everything that is in Quran is Considered and Believed as True Word of Allah (Jalla-Jalala-Hu).But Quran does not Explain Each and Everything in Detail like it is been Ordered in Quran by Allah that Perform Salath Prayers, Keep Rozas etc. but it is not Explained how to perform these things.Our Holy Prophet Mohammad (P.B.U.H) Gave Hadeeses (Hadiths) means explained each and every thing to us he indeed Interpreted true Meaning of Holy Quran
One Thing more According to Quran and Mohammad (P.B.U.H) about 100024 Prophets came to Earth time by time to make the Humans Follow Allah's Teachings, Out of Them Mohammad (P.B.U.H) is Considered as a Blessing to all of them and Considered to be the Last Prophet of Allah. Allah said that Holy Quran is my Book and i will Protect it from Evry body who will try to Modify or Destroy it (Nauz-o-Billah).And from then The Quran is as Pure and Real as it was Given to Mohammad (P.B.U.H).

I Hope this would have Cleaned some Misconceptions on Islam in Ur Mind...

Thank You

Zeeshan Ahmed

Attached Files


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#14    Mad Cobra

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Posted 24 October 2005 - 02:01 PM



Well I’m lost for words

A Muslim has his own account to produce before god; with this in mind common sense is not everyone’s greatest point. So yes their are a few who don't understand Islam fully and make it a point to prove everyone else wrong with any mean necessary.



Hitch taking one sentence out and making it look like the incitement to violence is not right. Where is the rest of the paragraph and the Qurans mother language is Arabic so who translated this to you. If it’s been translated is there the London Muslim association approved it since you are in the UK

You can quote anything you want but make sure your references are right.

Anyway the current authorityon Islam is not with any single authority as of yet


All in parallel yet so far

Cast is the illusion made is the reality

#15    bluelight

bluelight

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Posted 26 October 2005 - 11:42 AM

to answer you question. yes there is the Pope equivelent and he is in Mecca if you're wondering.







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