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Fundamental components of the universe


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#1    ai_guardian

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Posted 30 October 2005 - 12:02 PM

Perhaps this has been asked before but I'd like to get some fresh ideas/insight if I may.

The question is simple and I believe so is the answer but no one is infallable so I'd like your views on this matter and I don't want answers like eg. my mother, or conceptual or non-physical like love, life, GOD etc. - think of the most fundamental parts of the universe

Dig deep people - what do you believe to be the fundamental building blocks of the universe - what is the universe made of on the ultimate fundamental level. What cannot be broken down further or is not derrived from anything else.

To give some clues, I can currently think of ONLY 3 but two of those may very well be the one and the same (or in a way related) and once you hit on them I will elaborate.

The goal of this excercise is to uncover the truly fundamental. This may well turn into the shortest thread or the longest.
I don't have much time to respond but I'll try as hard as I might to uncover flaws in your thinking or to concur with your viewpoints. I'm just trying to cover all bases and make sure that I haven't missed anything before I start GIVING things away in my other thread 'Are we missing something really fundamental?' just popped off the first page - but not for long  original.gif

"... there can be no certainty of the last Conclusion, without a certainty of all those Affirmations and Negations, on which it was grounded, and inferred. ... And therefore if a man should talk to me of ... Immateriall Substances; or of A free Subject; A free-will; or any Free, but free from being hindred by opposition, I should not say he were in an Errour, but that his words were without meaning; that is to say, Absurd. ..."[sic] Thomas Hobbes - Leviathan (1651)

#2    Yelekiah

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Posted 30 October 2005 - 06:46 PM

Last time I checked they were quarks and leptons. And they all have their own categories.
edit:Yep, I read this wrong. I'll give my answer in a min.

Edited by Yelekiah, 30 October 2005 - 09:24 PM.

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#3    QuantumE

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Posted 30 October 2005 - 06:59 PM

GRAVITY!


#4    Yelekiah

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Posted 30 October 2005 - 07:02 PM

But you need to have mass to have gravity. Otherwise it wouldn't exist.  tongue.gif
But you have neutrinos, some of which have no mass. And they are pretty fundamental in my book.

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#5    Guardsman Bass

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Posted 30 October 2005 - 09:04 PM

Probably Superstrings, if that particular Unified Theory of Physics works out the bugs, and they find a way to test it.

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#6    .........................

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Posted 30 October 2005 - 09:21 PM

I would say that lightwaves would be the most fundamental component.


#7    Raptor

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Posted 30 October 2005 - 10:05 PM

Quote


Probably Superstrings, if that particular Unified Theory of Physics works out the bugs, and they find a way to test it.


If they're real that is.

Quote

I would say that lightwaves would be the most fundamental component.


Photons, I believe they're called.

I'd have to say Energy.


#8    Yelekiah

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Posted 30 October 2005 - 10:12 PM

I agree with you.

Edited by Yelekiah, 30 October 2005 - 10:12 PM.

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#9    ai_guardian

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Posted 30 October 2005 - 10:12 PM

Excellent, you're all pretty much right (that shouldn't be a surprise though) but now we'll have to choose one or the other. See below what I mean...
QUOTE(Yelekiah)
Last time I checked they were quarks and leptons.
...mass

QUOTE(QuantumE)
GRAVITY!
...from relativity this is believed to be caused by mass as Yelekiah pointed out BUT there are other parts to gravity that may be counted as fundamental...I will elaborate but not in this particular post, sry

QUOTE(Yelekiah)
But you have neutrinos, some of which have no mass. And they are pretty fundamental in my book.
Last time I checked (some 2 mins. ago) all neutrinos have a mass albeit small but my material may be outdated and you may have some more info on this. I am very interested to know if there is any neutrinos w/out mass but if there isn't then the references to neutrinos is once again 'mass'.

QUOTE(Guardsman Bass)
Probably Superstrings, if that particular Unified Theory of Physics works out the bugs, and they find a way to test it.
IF this theory proves out to be true (which I'd doubt) then the superstrings would be what? Energy + n-dimensionality (where n is, well, depends on which string theory you're looking at)

QUOTE(Rainbow Rowan)
I would say that lightwaves would be the most fundamental component.
Aha. Energy?

With regards to the responses so far we really have MASS, ENERGY and something other than mass that makes gravity work.

We all know that mass and energy are related, well, they're pretty much the same thing as per Einstein's famous formula. So which of these is more fundamental? Is it mass or energy?

I believe it is energy. So, would anyone object if we just say that ENERGY is definitely ONE of the fundamental components of the U and that mass is a derrivative of energy? If you object or you have a different view please share. I want to know what you think.

Don't forget, there's more! Energy on its own will not yield a universe or will it?

Sorry T-Nemesis, you've obviously got it! Didn't see your reply as I was in the middle of writing this one. Cheers thumbsup.gif

Edited by ai_guardian, 30 October 2005 - 10:14 PM.

"... there can be no certainty of the last Conclusion, without a certainty of all those Affirmations and Negations, on which it was grounded, and inferred. ... And therefore if a man should talk to me of ... Immateriall Substances; or of A free Subject; A free-will; or any Free, but free from being hindred by opposition, I should not say he were in an Errour, but that his words were without meaning; that is to say, Absurd. ..."[sic] Thomas Hobbes - Leviathan (1651)

#10    Yelekiah

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Posted 30 October 2005 - 10:13 PM

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Don't forget, there's more! Energy on its own will not yield a universe or will it?

Yes it can. Energy can become matter.

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#11    Yelekiah

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Posted 30 October 2005 - 10:16 PM

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Last time I checked (some 2 mins. ago) all neutrinos have a mass albeit small but my material may be outdated and you may have some more info on this.  

No, some are massless.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neutrino

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#12    ai_guardian

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Posted 30 October 2005 - 10:20 PM

Yes, energy can become matter but there's obviously more to the universe. I believe it is not just energy and energy in the form of mass. And now I suppose it comes to the crunch whether you believe the dimensions (space-time) are part of the universe or not.

"... there can be no certainty of the last Conclusion, without a certainty of all those Affirmations and Negations, on which it was grounded, and inferred. ... And therefore if a man should talk to me of ... Immateriall Substances; or of A free Subject; A free-will; or any Free, but free from being hindred by opposition, I should not say he were in an Errour, but that his words were without meaning; that is to say, Absurd. ..."[sic] Thomas Hobbes - Leviathan (1651)

#13    Yelekiah

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Posted 30 October 2005 - 10:23 PM

Quote


And now I suppose it comes to the crunch whether you believe the dimensions (space-time) are part of the universe or not.

Which specific dimensions? Do you mean in terms of perception?

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#14    ai_guardian

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Posted 30 October 2005 - 10:25 PM

QUOTE(Yelekiah)
No, some are massless.

QUOTE(Your Wiki Reference)
Its mass is very small compared to most other particles, although recent experiments (see Super-Kamiokande and Sudbury Neutrino Observatory) have shown it to be nonzero.
Perhaps I've missed something?? but can you please show me where it says they're massless? I may have gone temporarily blind. Thanks



"... there can be no certainty of the last Conclusion, without a certainty of all those Affirmations and Negations, on which it was grounded, and inferred. ... And therefore if a man should talk to me of ... Immateriall Substances; or of A free Subject; A free-will; or any Free, but free from being hindred by opposition, I should not say he were in an Errour, but that his words were without meaning; that is to say, Absurd. ..."[sic] Thomas Hobbes - Leviathan (1651)

#15    Yelekiah

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Posted 30 October 2005 - 10:25 PM

Energy is more fundamental. Look at the equation. Massive amounts of energy turn into matter. And think about it...the planets (matter) were not always here, but supposedly energy was.
edit:go into find and type in massless, it's also on google.

Edited by Yelekiah, 30 October 2005 - 10:26 PM.

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