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Hi, tell me why should I belive?


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#31    hyperactive

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Posted 02 November 2005 - 06:22 AM

the answer you should have gone with is medical examination (MRI, CAT, etc).  what you suggested does not prove you have a brain. yes.gif   grin2.gif   grin2.gif


"He who knows not and knows not he knows not, he is a fool - shun him.
He who knows not and knows he knows not, he is simple - teach him.
He who knows and knows not he knows, he is asleep - awaken him.
He who knows and knows that he knows, he is wise - follow him. "
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#32    ShaunZero

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Posted 02 November 2005 - 06:58 AM

I didn't try to proove that I had a brain. I was telling you how I know that I have thoughts.

"What if there were no hypothetical questions?" ~ George Carlin
Are you a cynic?

#33    hyperactive

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Posted 02 November 2005 - 07:06 AM

but how do you 'know' you have thoughts?  prove that what you think are your thoughts are not being generated by something else.  you can't.  you just assume that because they are from within you they are originating from you. w00t.gif


"He who knows not and knows not he knows not, he is a fool - shun him.
He who knows not and knows he knows not, he is simple - teach him.
He who knows and knows not he knows, he is asleep - awaken him.
He who knows and knows that he knows, he is wise - follow him. "
Arabia


#34    ShaunZero

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Posted 02 November 2005 - 07:18 AM

But how do you know? You have no idea how I perceive my thoughts, what if mine are different from yours? What if I DO know I have thougths, how would you prove me wrong?

It is kind of like God. I can explain to you about a certain thought I have, but you can't proove that I'm even capable of having that thought, or better yet even have thoughts, but I do.

How do you know I don't know I have thoughts?

There are many things that are true but can't be prooven. Like the fact that I have the urge to eat something sweet right now. I can't proove that to you, but it's true.
Neither one of us can proove what our sides, you can only choose to trust what I say. It's like God.

Edited by ZeroShadow, 02 November 2005 - 11:54 AM.

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#35    trublvr

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Posted 02 November 2005 - 05:33 PM

PlatoonSgtElias,

  Greetings!  I hope this finds you doing well in Estonia.  First, let me say that I am a Christian; just wanted to tell you that so you know who you are in touch with.

   As far as figuring out what to believe, I do differ with many about "figuring it out for yourself."  For instance, those who tell you to figure it out for yourself are still communicating with you and influencing you.  We look both within ourselves AND outside of ourselves to figure out what to believe.  It's what we end up doing anyway!  Looking ONLY outside of yourself can lead to despair because you may not like what you see, and then what do you do?  Or, you could end up only living for yourself (which is what we tend towards, anyway) and only gratifying your own desires.  The opposite is bad as well--ONLY looking outside of yourself.  You could be manipulated by others who desire to use you for their own purposes.  There are risks in going too far in either direction.  

You should be honest with yourself.  Why are you asking these questions to begin with?  What specifically is going on in your life at the moment to make you think of these things? What was it about the Emily Rose movie that raises your interest?  Are there things about the existence of a god that bring you joy and/or fear?  If so, what are these things, and what do they say about who you are and what you're looking for?  

Suggestions:  Read the bible on your own.  See what you think.  Start with either Genesis or Luke's Gospel (again, ONLY suggestions; you can do what you'd like).  If there are any religious people you know (like the people at your job), then find time where you can ask them honest and deep questions.  Start here, and see what happens.

If truth is not a matter of majority vote, neither is it a matter of minority dissent.        

                                                --Douglas Groothius

#36    PLO

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Posted 02 November 2005 - 06:02 PM

you better belive or god will sit aloft his throne of judgement and shoot lightning bolts at you ALL day, THEN he'll cast you into a lake of fire for not beleiving in him and his The Big Jolly Bumper Book of Goodness for Kids Where Everyone is Happy APART FROM THE MILLIONS THAT DIE FOR ME AND MY DANGEROUS NEO-CONSERVATIVE VIEWS.

failing that you'll probably just get cancer becuase thats the kinda guy god is.  Yes he works in many life threatning ways that cheeky guy, oh bless him, and bless Aids, poverty, child slavery, starvation, war and disease.  GOD BLESS THEM ALL

Edited by PLO, 02 November 2005 - 06:06 PM.

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#37    JMPD1

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Posted 02 November 2005 - 06:06 PM

PLO, do you realize that this section of the forums is 'protected', in that it is an area for the free discussion of religion, without bashing, abuse, or conflict?

for debate on these topics, you should go to the spirituality VS scepticism threads.

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#38    PLO

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Posted 02 November 2005 - 06:16 PM

im simply telling her why she should beleive, its all in  "The Good Book" if ur interested in reading it, i gave no form of skepticism whatsoever.  Maybe some mild sarcasm, yes granted but skepticism?, nope as i said its all in that dangerous neo-cons classic "The Good Book"

i also never at anytime tried to supress any talk of religion.

Edited by PLO, 02 November 2005 - 06:16 PM.

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#39    antiaging

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Posted 03 November 2005 - 08:54 PM

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First of all hello from Estonia. I decided to registrate here after doing some search on "Anneliese Michel". I watched the movie "The Exorcism of Emily Rose" and I kinda start to belive that there are some strange forces between life and death. Im very skeptik though bout spirits, god and the devil. I belive in space and time and the boundries of space.. but hearing all my life about ghost, spirits, god and so... im so confused in what to belive.. This is the first time in my life I have written this kind of text in the internet. I havent been in a curch for umm like 15 years or so, im 20 right now and at my work (Im a computer technician) all of my bosses are religous. Catholic or how is that in english. I want to belive in something but there has nothing that can make me belive in something i havent seen... a blurry topic im sure original.gif


Read the King James version New Testament; ask God to give you the proper understanding of it before you read it. That book contains the true teachings of real Christianity.
You can listen to it being read by someone else or read it at this website:
http://www.audio-bible.com/bible/bible.html



#40    trublvr

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Posted 03 November 2005 - 09:30 PM

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If you decide to beleive in Christianity, stay away from the churches and religious people who judge others and say they're going to hell.

Matthew 7:1-5 " 1"Do not judge, or you too will be judged. 2For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.

3"Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? 4How can you say to your brother, 'Let me take the speck out of your eye,' when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? 5You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye."


Told not to judge by the very book they follow.


PLO et al,

  If one were to decide to believe in Jesus and thereby follow "Christianity," then the two things you are offering up in the above quote are going to block the potential follower from following Jesus.  

  First, you reading the Mattew 7 quote incorrectly (though to your credit you did quote it properly.  Clearly, Jesus' emphasis here is not that one ought not to make moral judgments for/against someone.  The issue here is how said judgments are to be made.  Jesus is saying that one first must have a sober assessment of oneself, making a moral judgment on oneself first to purge the self of hypocritical motives in judging someone else.  After such an assessment, one is in a position to judge another properly.  In fact, after such an assessment the potential judge may conclude that what he/she initially perceived regarding another person was all wrong from the get-go, a mirage produced by the log in his/her own eye.  On the other hand, if there is a judgment to be made, the judge will judge rightfully, for the benefit of the other person, doing it out of the other's best interest instead of their own self-righteousness or hypocrisy.  Please observe what you yourself quoted!  At the end, Jesus still says that the potential judge is to judge!  It's just that the log is removed from his/her eye first!  

This is entirely in keeping with Jesus' own character!  I'm amazed that so many believe this passage to mean that one ought not make judgments.  In addition to violating the meaning and context of Jesus' teaching, this also contradicts Jesus' own example.  Many people absolutely loooove it when Jesus is making judgments about the Pharisees, Sadduccees, and his other Jewish contemporaries.  Isn't Jesus making moral judgments in Matt. 23 and Luke 11 when he goes off on the Pharisees and scribes?  He does this all over the gospels.  Not only that, but Jesus saw himself (and the corporate community he founded) as a figure thoroughly rooted in the Jewish prophetic tradition.  By definition, the Jewish prophetic tradition included many (sometimes scathing) moral judgments (check out the Old Testament prophets).  For Jewish people, prophetic status without making moral judgments is impossible.

Lastly, in the kind of community Jesus was founding, making moral judgments was entirely necessary.  Instead of being a place where people could just go off of folks, holding hell or supposed moral superiority over one's head, judgment in a communal context is central to love.  In making a moral judgment against someone in a Christ-centered community, one is saying, "You are missing out on and rebelling against what God has made you to be!  Leave this sin (whatever it may be) behind, and fulfill God's honorable, dignifying purposes for your humanity."  The goal is always the wholeness of the person, and the emphasis is not on their sin (even though that must be dealt with); instead, the emphasis is on what he/she should be in light of what God's purposes.  Wholeness (what's called "shalom" in Jewish theology) is the goal.  The judgment is that the person is refusing the wholeness for which God intended human beings.

Our culture's problem with judgment in the church stems from 1) hypocrisy in the church (which is a valid critique at times) and 2) our pathological avoidance of pain, be it physical, mental, or spiritual.  In the second case, many in the West believe that we have the right to all manners of comfort, including escape from any and all sorts of pain.  While one shouldn't have a masochistic or sadistic attraction to pain, this notion that we have a right to live pain-free lives is much of (though not entirely) what is behind our dislike of judgment.  We believe that we have the right to be free of the psychic/spiritual pain of being told by someone, "You are wrong, and you need to stop doing this and start doing that!"  In this instance, evasion of judgment has nothing to do with hypocrisy or any mandate from Jesus.  This is concerned, instead, with our own selfishness and individualism.  


If truth is not a matter of majority vote, neither is it a matter of minority dissent.        

                                                --Douglas Groothius

#41    cerberusxp

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Posted 24 January 2006 - 07:30 AM

I have been given proof of GOD. However I am unable to explain or tell some one about the proofs I've had over the years as they would not believe me any way. But I have to say I have had experiences that proved it to me. innocent.gif

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#42    scoobysnack

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Posted 25 January 2006 - 12:55 AM

Welcome to UM

I'll be blunt.  You should believe because you will die, as everyone will.  You will find yourself outside your body, about to begin your life in the spiritual realm, your true home, before you chose to come to earth.  I know this because I have studied countless of examples that can be verified.  I promise it will happen to you, me, and everyone who reads this.  (even hyperactive and Sherri berri) It's a 100% guarantee.  Your actions on earth will also affect your experience in the afterlife.  I posted this on a different thread, but this will answer your question, and everyone elses.

You will read about personal experiences from fellow forumites here:

Quote


I had an ode a couple of years ago and i found that my experiences were different to how it has been explained by others.
i fell unconscious about 15 minutes after my accident. after that i had a weird but good feeling in myself. i was standing in a street and there was a big crowd of people. i didnt see what they were looking at. things looked brighter than they do usually but not blinding. i felt weightless. when the crowd moved a bit i could see myself on the floor. i had an oxygen mask on and someone was giving me cpri was scared tho. during this time i felt butterflies in my stomach. i dont know how else to explain it. then i saw a paramedic shocking my heart. things went a bit blurry then i saw them doing CPR again then i remember waking up in the hospital with a lot of pain. i remembered everything i saw but i didnt know if it was real or not. the doctor confirmed it all. he told me that my heart stopped and they had to give me CPR and shock my heart twice. i was brought back but arrested again in the ambulance. they had to continue CPR and shock my heart once more.
a thing im confused about is that i didnt see the light in the tunnel. has anyone else ever had an nde before? if so what did you see? Ive thought about this a lot since it happened and am really lost.
some input would be good here.

Internature


Thank you for sharing your experience and the starting this discussion.  Your NDE was perfect, and normal.  Your soul (you) stayed in the earthbound realm and did not travel further into the spiritual realms.  You were not ready to die, and had no reason to go further.  This is how it works.  Think of distance measured in light.  Like this:

user posted image

After you leave the earthbound realm with the rest of us, you have to go through the darkness before you can get to the light.  It's true for all of us.  At some point in the spectrum is the point of no return, meaning you remain dead (in the spiritual world), and can't return to your physical body.  

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that was the first stage, if you haven't been saved you would see the tunnel. dying people often have those two experiences - out of body and then tunnel.


Exactly.  Some people don't need to spend time in the darkness for reflection and introspection, so they fly through the darkness towards the light at a high speed resulting in the tunnel.

Quote


i was dead for roughly 14 minutes, and came back with only mild brain damage (although my wife would argue that one, lol) i saw a bright light, but never a tunnel of light like you always here about. i went from being in the hospital room to standing in a forest. it was peaceful, and there were no bugs trying to eat me original.gif

some of the stuff that i saw i don't like to talk about. it wasn't bad, it was just personal.  I'll just say i saw some dead friends and relatives, and one very cool thing happened. i found out that i had a brother who passed away before i was born. my parents never told me about him, but i asked my mom and she freaked out.


Thanks for sharing. thumbsup.gif Like you said, you could see the light as a reminder, as you were traveling away from the earthbound realm into the darkness but eventually towards the light.  You saw your dead relatives and even a brother you didn't even know about and later had that verified by your mom.  This is proof that this is a real experience, and that we do have a soul that resides in our body, and separates upon death, but death is simply a new beginning into a new reality/consciousness/world.  Everyone on earth will have a similar experience when they die.

I met someone who had a similar experience to you.  He was a drug dealer, who got jumped, and beat in the head with a crowbar.  He said at first it hurt as they were hitting but then the pain stopped and found himself outside his body, watching them beat, and kick his now dead body.  He then started traveling through a foggy Forrest.  He could hear voices luring him further away from his body.  He eventually met his dead grandfather who led told him it was not his time, and that he would have to go back to his body.  Lucky, because he is now alive to tell me, to tell you.  

To make a long story short, a few years ago, I had planned a date to kill myself, and was going through with the preparations.  I was searching the internet about suicide, when I came across near death experiences from people whose life ended by decision.  Of course they weren't entirely successful as they are alive today to tell there story.  So I started reading about what would happen after I killed myself.    The vast majority sounded sort of cool, in that I would be free of my body, and possibly fly.  But as I read more I noticed a major difference in the experiences, and that there common elements but also a spectrum of extremes.  Some of the experiences were more hellish, and scary while others peaceful and happy.  I then started reading other near death experiences involving out of body experiences and found even more extremes.  Some people who died (had a NDE because) of accidents, sometimes saw other souls, suicides for example, who were stuck on the earthbound realm, apologizing to the people they hurt as a result of their suicide.  Seeking forgiveness before they could travel on towards the light.  I found out that comitting suicide would be the biggest mistake I could ever make, and have long term consequences that I had never anticipated before.  I stayed up all night studying as much as I could about what happens after people die.

I found a common factor that affected the personal experience of each person.  That was spiritual ignorance or lack of.  Meaning the more you know about your true existence your being, and also how much you unconditionally love all others.  If you know your life's purpose, you would know why it's so important to love unconditionally.  Those who don't love, or are more spiritually ignorant don't travel as far through the darkness towards the light as those who were more loving, and in tune with their relationship with God.

It was at that point after reading over dozens of personal near death experiences for hours I realized I wanted to have one of the good happy near death experience when I really die.  Another common theme I found was Jesus, and God, so I turned my life over to those guy(s).  Jesus is the fastest way to get through the darkness towards the light, and denying him is denying ourself the happiness in the light.

I felt at that point that I pretty much had had my own inspirational NDE from all that reading, even though I never left my body.  It was like sudden enlightenment!  I prayed for Jesus/God to come into my heart and change my life for the better, and guide me towards keeping on the path towards the light.  Ever since then I have never felt depressed, even after living my whole(remembered) life wanting to die.  It was a major transformation, and I honestly immediatly felt like a different person.  I was actually happy for once.  I know knew that God/Jesus had forgiven me, and that I had something great to look forward to.  

If you don't believe anything I say, please just believe this one thing I say.  When you die, and you are lost, in the darkness, call out to Jesus to save you, and it will be done.

Hopefully you find that out before that time comes, but you can thank me later if it comes to that.

In the end proof of survival after physical death is around if you look for it.  This also proves that we are a soul using a physical body (shell), and when death comes, we shed the body and continue on into a new reality.  This also proves to me the existence of God, Jesus, and  the idea of heaven and hell.  I've devoted part of life to spreading this good news to everyone I can.

Quote


Wow thats interesting. I have never had this experience. But I did have a friend(well sort of friend because she lost my trust after doing drugs etc.) once have this sort of thing happen to her. She was sitting in her hospital bed once when she was real sick and she said she felt like she was going to sleep, but all the sudden her heart monitor went flat. The doctors came running in, trying to pump her heart, and she said she felt herself lift free from her body, she felt light, and she said all the sudden things went very dark. She some form of heat like  fire shooting out from the darkness, it was very hot and she felt herself began to scream, but nothing came out of her mouth. As she starred into the dark she heard a voice calling her name, and heard people screaming at the top of their lungs in pain. After the voice stopped she felt herself slam into her body. She woke up and the doctors were around her, and she saw her parents there too. They were crying, but she said all she could do was lie in shock. To this day it has been 4 months since that experience and she says now she attends church and prays, before she had a rough time, she never went to church and was into drugs, sex etc....but I was really scared for her after she told me this, she has even encouraged me to be more in tune with my religion.


Your friend got a taste of the void/hell (void of light/love).  It sounds like it scared her straight.  I'm glad you know this about her, and hopefully have decided to be more in tune with your religion.  Religion is a step stool, and has what you need.


For all you people who still don't believe, you owe it to yourself to read this very detailed near death experience of a man who died as an atheist and had his life transformed after his NDE that he is now a full believer in God.  This was the final NDE I read before I decided against killing myself.  I met him in person, and he told his story to me among others.  He (a grown man) even started crying as he described his experiences and torture in hell.  It was awkward, but added to the validity, in my mind.  I hope it changes your life like it changed mine!

Quote

Saved From Hell
Rev. Howard Storm's near-death experience

Before his near-death experience, Rev. Howard Storm, a Professor of Art at Northern Kentucky University, was not a very pleasant man. He was an avowed atheist and was hostile to every form of religion and those who practiced it. He often would use rage to control everyone around him and he didn’t find joy in anything. Anything that wasn’t seen, touched, or felt, he had no faith in. He knew with certainty that the material world was the full extent of everything that was. He considered all belief systems associated with religion to be fantasies for people to deceive themselves with. Beyond what science said, there was nothing else.

On June 1, 1985, at the age of 38, Howard Storm had a near-death experience due to a perforation of the stomach and his life was forever changed. His near-death experience is one of the most profound, if not the most profound, afterlife experience I have ever documented. His life was so immensely changed after his near-death experience that he resigned as a professor and devoted his time to attending the United Theological Seminary to become a United Church of Christ minister. The following is the account of Pastor Howard Storm's near-death experience, which is an excerpt from his book, My Descent Into Death, reprinted by permission.

http://www.near-death.com/storm.html

Rev. Howard Storm Index

Part 1 - An Invitation to Hell From Strange Beings
http://www.near-death.com/experiences/storm01.html

Part 2- A Rescue From Hell by Jesus Christ
http://www.near-death.com/experiences/storm02.html

Part 3 - The Therapy of Love and Enlightenment
http://www.near-death.com/experiences/storm03.html

Part 4 - Learning What Happens After Death
http://www.near-death.com/experiences/storm04.html



You can find the orginal thread here:

http://www.unexplained-mysteries.com/forum...showtopic=52393

Edited by scoobysnack, 25 January 2006 - 01:01 AM.

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#43    divine_mockery

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Posted 25 January 2006 - 01:13 AM

Don't let others tell you what to believe.
You need to figure that out for yourself.



Kill me again or take me as I am, for I shall not change.

-The Marquis de Sade

#44    scoobysnack

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Posted 25 January 2006 - 01:47 AM

Quote


Don't let others tell you what to believe.
You need to figure that out for yourself.


Exactly, drop out of school,

Don't listen to others who lack experiance.

He who molds opinion is greater than he who enacts laws.
--President Abraham Lincoln

“There is nothing new in the world except the history you do not know.”
-- Harry Truman

#45    Beckys_Mom

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Posted 25 January 2006 - 02:54 AM

Quote


Exactly, drop out of school,

Don't listen to others who lack experiance.


I have to agree with devine...Don't let others tell you what to believe..and I will add...follow your heart do what you think is best.....that doesnt mean drop out of school WTF?

People who follow their own minds and don't let themselves get sucked into a religion...tend to have strong minds..than those that like to have their nose stuck in some bible all the time and try and preach how their faith is the only true faith and everyone else's faith is wrong huh.gif

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