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Are legendary "dragons" really dinosaurs?


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#16    Atlantis Rises

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Posted 03 December 2005 - 06:42 PM

Again with the dragons, DC? Stop reading those fantasy novels they're confusing you. In no time in history have dragons been mentioned. Anything resembling a "dragon" would be Satan, and the use of dragon was a metaphor.

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#17    draconic chronicler

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Posted 04 December 2005 - 02:44 AM

If you really believe that Atlantis, I would have to say you know very, very, little about history.  As late as the 17th century giant, winged fire spewing dragons appear in "scientific" treatises on animal life.  They are described along with other reptiled with no hint that a winged dragon was any less real than a python or crocodile.  There are literally thousands of recorded sitings of dragons and they are a part of virturally every world religion.  They are the highest heavenly servants in the original bible, before it was changed by Christians, but the evidence is there.  The Satan you speak of, is merely one of a whole host of these creatures. They are certainly a hell of a lot more real than "Atlantis".  Atlantis appears in the writings of one man, (who also wrote about dragons I should add).  Dragons were firmly believed in by every world culture. for something like 5,000 years.  There is more "evidence" and belief in them,  than any individual "God" in the world.  This is a simple fact known to everyone somewhat knowledgable about world religions.

The reason there are so many fantasy books about dragons, is because people in even this day and age, still believe they are real.  But don't take my word for it, just type dragon in your search engine and see what happens.  But I don't read modern fantasy books about dragons, I read the ancient Christian and Hebrew scriptures, and those of many other religions and cultures, that attest to the existence of dragons.

Edited by draconic chronicler, 04 December 2005 - 02:50 AM.


#18    DemonWatcher

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Posted 04 December 2005 - 03:08 AM

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This is a simple fact known to everyone somewhat knowledgable about world religions.

also any one who has any knowledge of history.

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Anything resembling a "dragon" would be Satan, and the use of dragon was a metaphor.

True, the bible of the Christians says Satan is dragon, explain why in Psalms dragons sing praises to heaven.  And i agree dragons can be used as a metaphor, but most likely used to say be wise, and intelligent, such as an ancient dragon.

Atlantis, what do you gargoyles are representative of?

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#19    snuffypuffer

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Posted 04 December 2005 - 10:38 PM

Well, we all know the story of George Washington cutting down the cherry tree, and how he "could not tell a lie." And how that turned out to be mostly myth. I think there is a creature that gave rise to the dragon myth, but I highly doubt it could fly and breathe fire. Maybe it was just very gassy.

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#20    Vidgange

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Posted 04 December 2005 - 11:03 PM

First off to DC: how come that dragons (mostly) only interfered with human business in the middle east? Why didn't they, like u said, get involved further east, in like china? U said that this could be one of the reasons why they are looked up on as good... Just wondering...

And regarding the fiery breathe everyone... I'd imagen a beast with that size must be quite heavy, and therefore rather clumbsy - espesially in the air! And 'cause of that they must have some kind of weapon; so they can slay thier prey. They can't really get around and infront of an animal to spit poison in thier eyes, so they have to breath fire and in that way kill the prey... Just another thought...

Sorry if it's har to read and understand, but I'm quite tired now... tongue.gif

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#21    draconic chronicler

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Posted 05 December 2005 - 01:05 PM

As I mentioned before Vid, it is highly unlikely dragons could be merely a "natural" creature.  There would surely be fossil evidence for them if they had.  Also, if intelligent, giant flying reptiles were not "controled", they would have likely wiped out the human race in its infancy.

Dragons can only be a kind of supernatural creature, possibly genetically engineered by a higher power with the specific purpose of consuming undesirable humans or terrifying them to his will.

That  they seem mostly concerned with matters in Western Asia only confirms that the Hebrew creation epic, with its uncanny similarilities to our current understanding of evolution and life origin, is essentially true, and accordingly then, the "dragons" are creatures of this God.  As for the dragons seeming largely benificent in China and terrible in Europe could suggest that they were either ordered not to harm the Chinese, or interfere with them becasue they were already an advanced culture, or that the dragons, when allowed to prey on then, "unimportant" elements of mankind (as legends everywhere attest), that they simply would rather eat large fat Northern Europeans (where there are many legends of nasty dragons), than stringy lean chinese.

It is perhaps no coincidence, that as the people became Christians, dragon attacks stopped.

The fire then, is not a food getting or defensive evolutionary development, but rather an engineered feature to make dragons the original, 100% biological, "weapon of mass destruction".


#22    Vidgange

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Posted 05 December 2005 - 03:38 PM

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Dragons can only be a kind of supernatural creature, possibly genetically engineered by a higher power with the specific purpose of consuming undesirable humans or terrifying them to his will.

Why then haven't God sent forward his/her terrifying dragons to eat humans that have done great harm? I'm thinking Hitler and Stalin... Why were they allowed to roam freely and kill millions? They were a far greater threat than any medievel king or ancient ruler...

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The fire then, is not a food getting or defensive evolutionary development, but rather an engineered feature to make dragons the original, 100% biological, "weapon of mass destruction".

What I was trying to do was merely look at the firebreath in asomewhat logical way original.gif I don't believe in dragons as in "fantasydragons" nor that they breath fire...

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#23    frogfish

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Posted 05 December 2005 - 09:31 PM

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"scientific" treatises on animal life

scientific as in religious?

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"dragons" are creatures of this God. As for the dragons seeming largely benificent in China and terrible in Europe could suggest that they were either ordered not to harm the Chinese, or interfere with them becasue they were already an advanced culture, or that the dragons, when allowed to prey on then, "unimportant" elements of mankind (as legends everywhere attest), that they simply would rather eat large fat Northern Europeans (where there are many legends of nasty dragons), than stringy lean chinese.


But would they also devour the chinese, as they were not yet Christian, but "pagan" in the eyes of Christians and God...Why didn't God send the dragons down on them if they destroyed the evil


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#24    draconic chronicler

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Posted 06 December 2005 - 12:36 AM

Vid,
If dragons (or angels) were sent in modern times, everyone would accept Chritianity simply out of fear.  When Satan offered Jesus control of the world, it was not a "temptation" as early Chritians misconstrued the story, but to fullfill the old testaments prophecies of a messiah leading a heavenly host to destroy the enemies of Israel.  He turned down Satan's offer because he would not force His beliefs on the world with the power of God, (no doubt disappointing Satan and the rest of the dragon host.)  It is very possible dragons and angels have affected modern history but only in covert ways.  Sometimes they are "discovered", for example there are two accounts of giant sea reptiles attacking German U-Boats observed by a whole crew of witnessess.  In one case the creature was driven off by a huge explosion of an allied ship was torpedoed, and in another, bullets drove it away.  But who knows how many others they sunk with no one to tell the tale?

Frogfish,
Though they were pagans, the Chinese may not have been attacked by dragons because God thought they were a civilized culture far enough away to be no threat to his "chosen people".  Or he might not have cared which pagans dragons attacked on their own time.  Consider too that dragons are universally known for possessing great wisdom (as Jesus also stated though it was mistranslated to mean a common snake), so the dragons may have refrained from attacking  an advanced culture, and may have enjoyed peaceful contact with these humans that they may have thought entertaining.  

On the other hand, there are many mysterious disappearances of human cultures around the world that could be caused by heavenly vengeance.  Sodom andGomorroah are mentioned in the bible because they concerned Biblical people and regions, but similar things could have happened all over the world.  The Anazazi peoples mysteriously vanished, seeming just abandoning their towns.  We now know these people practiced cannibalism and perhpas they displeased God enough to warrant heavenly retribution.  And of course, this was long enough ago, that no one will ever know, though it may be no coincidence that before they "vanished" they left a very good pictograph of a great winged dragon near their abandoned city.

Typically though, the many legends of dragon depredation in the Barbarian lands of northern Europe strongly suggests this was a popular place for them until the people there accepted Christianity.  And when we understand the culture, it would be a great place to consume humans, for they built huge meadhalls of wood and cowdung, where they would feast and drink until they were incoherent.  The Epic of Beowulf explains this quite well, though the part about slaying a dragon was of course, greatly exaggerated, as is evident is the story itself when carefully studied.

Edited by draconic chronicler, 06 December 2005 - 12:39 AM.


#25    koenig212003

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Posted 06 December 2005 - 01:33 AM

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On the other hand, there are many mysterious disappearances of human cultures around the world that could be caused by heavenly vengeance.  Sodom andGomorroah are mentioned in the bible because they concerned Biblical people and regions, but similar things could have happened all over the world.  The Anazazi peoples mysteriously vanished, seeming just abandoning their towns.  We now know these people practiced cannibalism and perhpas they displeased God enough to warrant heavenly retribution.  And of course, this was long enough ago, that no one will ever know, though it may be no coincidence that before they "vanished" they left a very good pictograph of a great winged dragon near their abandoned city.


I simply can't let this one slide DC.  Please don't try to bring your dragon fantasies into Southwestern Archaeology.  The Anasazi people didn't just vanish.  Many migrated to different areas because of the severe drought that occurred in the mid to late 13th century.  They were essentially absorbed by other groups and some anthropologists believe they are the direct ancestors of the puebloan peoples of today.  Besides, which branch of the Anasazi are you referring to, the Kayenta or Virgin River or another branch?  Also, the whole cannabalism issue is still hotly debated today.  The Mancos site in Colorado is the only site where clear (to some) evidence exists of cannibalsim (i.e.  human feces containing human muscle tissue) but even this is questioned by most of us in the archaeological community.  Cannabalism was exceedingly rare so I truly doubt these people would have "displeased God enough to warrant heavenly retribution" especially in the form of your dragons!  Where is the evidence of this heavenly retribution?  I certainly haven't seen any in any of the digs I've been on.  And this was not long enough ago that we don't know anything about them.  I know (and continue to learn) a great deal about the Anasazi by studying the faunal remains from their sites.  We can gain information on what they ate, daily activities, even aspects of their sociopolitical organization through such studies.  I'm also very curious as to where this "dragon pictograph" is located since you say "near their abandoned city" as if there was just one "city" in which the Anasazi people lived.  Sorry but fantasy simply cannot stand up to science...

Edited by koenig212003, 06 December 2005 - 01:36 AM.


#26    draconic chronicler

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Posted 06 December 2005 - 04:42 AM

Koenig,
I am rather surprised as an aracheologist, that you have never heard of the "Anazazi Dragon", a relatively well known  pictograph.  Just type it into any search engine and you will see images of it.

I realize it is PC to play down the cannibalism of North American natives, though this is well established in Mesoamerica so should not be surprising just a few hundred miles north.  It is regretable we do not know what may have inspired the Anazazi dragon, though we have interesting legends in other parts of North America of the Piasa, another dragon-like creature, which according to a native american account, was an intelligent creature that allied itself with one tribe against another,  carrying off the enemy Chieftains in battle to demoralize and terrify their warriors.  Of course, this must be a fantasy, just like the absurd notion that North American Natives could possibly be cannibals, for we all know only "good" indians live north of the Rio Grande, just like in Dances With Wolves, so it must be a scientific fact.

Edited by draconic chronicler, 06 December 2005 - 04:49 AM.


#27    Vidgange

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Posted 06 December 2005 - 07:44 AM

I did google the anasazi dragon (NOT anazazi) and came up with this Is that what you were talking about?

But i wonder if south america ever suffered a "dragon attack"? It's been stated that they were cannibals, and therefore "deserved" the wrath of god...

And if now dragons did actually destroy civilizations and destroy cities in ancient time, shouldn't the archeologists find burned soil?

Edited by Vidgange, 06 December 2005 - 07:45 AM.

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#28    Hazzard

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Posted 06 December 2005 - 08:55 AM

draconic chronicler and his weird religion/fantasy/scifi nonsense has nothing what so ever to do with science,palaeontology or reality for that matter.

Dragons are a myth.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dragons#Drago...yth_and_folkore

Some believe that the dragon may have had a real-life counterpart from which the legends around the world arose — typically dinosaurs are mentioned as a possibility — but there is no evidence to support this claim. Another less common claim is that they are based upon some sort of flying machines possessed by some ancient, unknown culture. Both of these hypotheses are pseudoscience.

Edited by hazzard, 06 December 2005 - 09:03 AM.

I still await the compelling Exhibit A.

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#29    draconic chronicler

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Posted 06 December 2005 - 01:12 PM

Hazzard,
Secular historians and archaeologists have dismissed as fantasy virtually every event in the bible, yet little by little we are discovering it is filled with great truths, not to mention something like a third of of the world population believe it is the inspired word of God.  If that it so, then the dragonesque servant creatures of that God would be real as well, and would explain the largely inexplicable, world wide belief and great fear in uncannily similar creatures.  The premise of this study is that a creator entity is "real", and there are several scientists who have written scholarly works that indicate a clear compatibility between science and many aspects of the bible.  I doubt you are a scientist or a biblical scholar.

Vid,
As I previously stated, dragon attacks onpeoples unrelated to the Biblical peoples may have entirely been "free lance" and therefore fire may not necesarily be a criteria of evidence for dragons attacks.  I merely speculated on the Anasazi incident.  If you are to use the bible as a basis for the existence of dragons, the book of Job indicates it was the job of Satan to travel about the world observing and reporting the inequiteis of mankind, and punishing them accordingly.

The bible makes much of "fire and brimstone" type heavenly retribution, and consider the several accounts to the fire spewing heavenly servants, this seems to be the norm in heavenly directed attacks in which cities are intended to be completely destroyed.   Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed by fire, though there is no volcanic activity in the region.  On the other hand, the firstborn of Egypt were taken quietly at night without the fiery destruction of cities, and in the Book of Jubilees, Satan is again credited with leading the "destroyers" as the dragons are sometimes called.  There are also many cases of mesoamerican cities being mysteriously abandoned.  Of course scientists always try to find scientific reasons, and maybe there always will be, but these peoples too believed in fearsome dragon-like creatures it was necessary to appease.  Perhaps there were times when appeasment didnt work.


#30    zandore

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Posted 06 December 2005 - 02:30 PM

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.....the Chinese may not have been attacked by dragons because God thought they were a civilized culture far enough away to be no threat to his "chosen people".  Or he might not have cared which pagans dragons attacked on their own time.  
DC Is this an opinion of do you have proof? If you have proof please PROVIDE A LINK so the rest of us can read up on this so called "evidence"!


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Koenig,
I am rather surprised as an aracheologist, that you have never heard of the "Anazazi Dragon", a relatively well known  pictograph.  Just type it into any search engine and you will see images of it.
Again PLEASE provide a link.

To make claims such as this and not have a link (when asked) to your sources is rude to the rest of us. We have had this discussion (about providing links) before remember?

Edited by zandore, 06 December 2005 - 02:32 PM.

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