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Miracles


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#16    :rollseyes:

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Posted 22 December 2005 - 05:06 PM

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True, no explanation as to the effects of the Sun on that day, Science has only theories.

The predictions have since been, and I quote the word "debunked" by the Vatican.

The Prophecies are described by the church as interpretations of what the children told.

Mass healing, no proof.

Mass conversions, because people wanted to believe.


science has theories? like what? UFO's sending hollograms? - I've already heard that one. 70.000 people having exactly the same allucination at the same time - right..

"The predictions have since been, and I quote the word "debunked" by the Vatican.

The Prophecies are described by the church as interpretations of what the children told."

I believe in you and I didn't know about that but:

In 1941 the revealed 2 of the secrets the 1st one was an image from hell, the second one (remember the aparicion occurred in 1917) was a predicion of several events between which there were: end of WWI and start of WWII (of course u can be suspicious, WWII had already started by the time it was revealed); that the pope would suffer greatly (and we have: 1 pope who might have been murdered (the one before John Paul II), the pope john Paul II gets shoted in the hearth 2 times one of which he was visiting Fatima and survives miraculously, John Paul II suffers from Parkinson disease); there would come harsh times for the church (we have: pedophilia inside the Catholic Church; growing atheism; divergent groups inside the church); ascension of communism in Russia and that Russia "will spread its errors throughout the world"

even if u think it is bulls*** I don't know why would the vatican discredit publicly the predictions even if they knew they were false

"mass healing, no proof"

well, there were healings, wether they were due to divine intervention or the "placebo effect" that's another question but many medics, jornalists and scientist reported that people who were blind started seeing and people who couldn't walk started walking. and ever since then people who have gone in pilgrimage to Fatima have experienced cures that modern science can't explain.

"Mass conversions, because people wanted to believe."

True  happy.gif

and a conversion is not a miracle i just put it there for the ambience
however there were many jornalists at the local who were prepared to go away without seeing anything but they saw

about the miracle itself, they saw a strange cloud ovewr the tree were the children were, then there's something like a solar eclipse, then the sun starts spining and changing colours (looks like teletubies or something like that this part doesnt it  hmm.gif ), then the sun "gets out of its orbit and starts dancing" (somehow like a UFO but please do not make linkings between this two subjects disgust.gif plz) then suddenly the sun starts falling in the direction of the earth people start running everywhere, there's a light like no other however the eyes don't get hurt, when it looks like everything is gona blow the sun goes back to its place and people say they start seeing falling what they describe as "angel's hair". Apart from that it had been raining cats and dogs and before this everyone was completely wet but aftyer the show they found out that their clothes were now dry

now how da hell do u explain this (remember there were 70.000 witnesses)

Edited by :rollseyes:, 22 December 2005 - 05:07 PM.


#17    Welsh Shaun

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Posted 22 December 2005 - 05:11 PM

I cannot explain the phenomenon of the sun witnessed that day, neither can scientists, what I'm saying is in your support, is that they can only theorise.

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#18    Welsh Shaun

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Posted 22 December 2005 - 05:13 PM

Oh and as far as a pope suffering. Exactly how many popes have there been since then.

Law of averages?

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#19    :rollseyes:

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Posted 22 December 2005 - 05:46 PM

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I cannot explain the phenomenon of the sun witnessed that day, neither can scientists, what I'm saying is in your support, is that they can only theorise.


neither did I want to criticize you, I was only emphasizing that even those theories are completely umplausibe original.gif

Quote


Oh and as far as a pope suffering. Exactly how many popes have there been since then.

Law of averages?


also true yes.gif  but what I want to express is that why would the vatican "debunk" those predictions if they are not contrary to the facts (again, if I was the pope and knew that they were false I would't make it public, why should I?)

BTW, here are not so bad sites:

http://members.aol.com/bjw1106/marian6.htm
http://www.fatima.org/apostolate/faq01.asp

Btw, did u know that after portuguese war with Spain, in 1640, they crowned the virgin mary as their queen allegedly because she had helped them in their battles, since then the portuguese didn't wore crowns because simbolicly they were only her stewards. that dinasty survived until 1910 when the republicans instaured an anti-clerical regime (just 7 years before Fatima)


#20    Welsh Shaun

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Posted 22 December 2005 - 05:54 PM

I think/believe the debunking has to do with the non-concecration of Russia. As it has never been done, nothing bad has become of the church. So they say that the predictions must have been false or misinterpreted. That is why their stance has changed.

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#21    :rollseyes:

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Posted 22 December 2005 - 06:17 PM

hmm.. ye u're right I forgot about it however it may have been unwise by the vatican to do so, nothing all that bad has happened to the church yet wink2.gif (that was the third secret wasnt it?)

apart from this I'm usually quite skeptical I'm the kind of guy that if Jesus would be dancing naked in front of my eyes casting lightningbolts at everyone around him I still wouldn't believe

I only believe in miracles when there is no other logical explanation.
For example: someone can't walk, he prays god for a cure and 13 years later he gets cured unexplicably - I dont think it is a miracle. Why? Even if science can't explain it may be explained we just don't know why yet;
according to the Vatican (and it's also logical) it can only be a miracle if the effects are immediate or were predicted (like: a priest goes to you prays and u get healed instantaneously;
or "you will be shoted in your head but survive anyway" and it happens);
and when there is some divine sign or manifestation (maybe you wouldn't like if the doctor went to your house while you where sleeping and without notifying operates you saving you from death - it's a weak analogy but i think it is valid)

Edited by :rollseyes:, 22 December 2005 - 06:21 PM.


#22    Welsh Shaun

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Posted 22 December 2005 - 06:23 PM

As modern thinking humans with greater knowledge of the world, we automatically look for logical explanations. Unlike our forefathers who excepted what they saw or heard.

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#23    Guardsman Bass

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Posted 23 December 2005 - 06:56 AM

Almost by definition, a miracle is an inexplicable event that can not be duplicated experimentally. That makes them very difficult to examine scientifically, unless they are things like stigmata.

"You say that it is your custom to burn widows. Very well. We also have a custom: when men burn a woman alive, we tie a rope around their necks and we hang them. Build your funeral pyre; beside it, my carpenters will build a gallows. You may follow your custom. And then we will follow ours." -Sir Charles Napier

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#24    hyperactive

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Posted 23 December 2005 - 10:48 PM

indeed, a "miracle" is in the eye of the beholder.  people seek to explain things, and when they can not, and from their limited perspective it seems like the event is something rare, it becomes "a miracle".  In other words, it is just another "fill the holes" explanation with no real validity.


"He who knows not and knows not he knows not, he is a fool - shun him.
He who knows not and knows he knows not, he is simple - teach him.
He who knows and knows not he knows, he is asleep - awaken him.
He who knows and knows that he knows, he is wise - follow him. "
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#25    Welsh Shaun

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Posted 23 December 2005 - 10:56 PM

I dont think that it is just in the eye of the beholder, no one can explain away the Fatima, neither do I think that it is a simple fill in the holes explanation. I'm not a believer of Miracles but I think that that there is much to be learned about such phenomenon.

If only we had the knowledge?

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#26    hyperactive

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Posted 23 December 2005 - 11:28 PM

yes, we should seek to understand phenomena.  the problem is that those that adopt superstition as their framework seek no explanation:  "its a miracle" is all they need.

something being deemed "a miracle" is in the eye of the beholder because an event might be "a miracle" to one, "an event of unexplained origin" to another, "and event of low likelihood" to the next,  and "the effects of hallucinogentics" to yet another.


"He who knows not and knows not he knows not, he is a fool - shun him.
He who knows not and knows he knows not, he is simple - teach him.
He who knows and knows not he knows, he is asleep - awaken him.
He who knows and knows that he knows, he is wise - follow him. "
Arabia


#27    :rollseyes:

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Posted 24 December 2005 - 12:20 AM

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yes, we should seek to understand phenomena.  the problem is that those that adopt superstition as their framework seek no explanation:  "its a miracle" is all they need.



I'm sorry but that's not true for every supersticious person. I only believe in something when it is the most plausible and logical explanation (as science does).

And regarding that, so does science. Here is an example:

Aristoteles said that things fall because it is the nature of things to be on the ground.,people accepted that as a fact (they didn't even ask "what the things that fly?"). Then Galileo proved it was wrong but didn't theorise any other explanation. Then was Newton's turned and he said that things fell because there was a force that made matter attract matter (no one asked what caused that force). Finnaly Einstein said that gravitation was nothing more than spacetime distorce (and still there are many things that don't work [which are so many that I would have to spend the rest of the night here])


#28    Paranoid Android

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Posted 24 December 2005 - 04:42 AM

So is there such thing as a miracle then hyper?  Someone walking on water, or turning water into wine, or healing someone instantaneously who had been lame or blind their whole lives (I'm using this only as an example, not to prove anything).  WOuld these be considered "miracles" or is there a scientific explanation.

What about Gideon's 2nd sight?  Or Ramster's bleeding cross?  I'm just asking questions,

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#29    hyperactive

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Posted 24 December 2005 - 04:51 AM

subjective reality is just that, subjective.

rammy believes what he saw was "a sign", and since we have no tape, witnesses, or other evidence to examine it we can not conclude anything on it.

gideon's second sight, well this we could study in the lab to some extent.  again though, gideon may well refuse to accept what we find if it does not confirm his subjective reality.

hallucunations, illusions, embellished stories,.... lots and lots of it.

no, there is no such thing as a miracle outside of subjective explanations.  it is the patchwork application of anecdotal thinking.

and just to throw it back to you the other way: lets say somebody really did verifiably walk on water.  it still is not a miracle, but a demonstration of an ability.  just because 99.99999....% of people can not do it, does not mean that it is anything more than a rare ability.  just because we do not know how does not mean we should succumb to superstitious foolishness.

happy.gif


"He who knows not and knows not he knows not, he is a fool - shun him.
He who knows not and knows he knows not, he is simple - teach him.
He who knows and knows not he knows, he is asleep - awaken him.
He who knows and knows that he knows, he is wise - follow him. "
Arabia


#30    Paranoid Android

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Posted 24 December 2005 - 05:03 AM

wow, hyper, what a......... skeptical..... analysis.  Just to throw the spotlight back on you, is not your view also just as much of a subjective explanation.  Within your framework of belief, there is no such thing as a miracle, therefore they cannot occur and anything that resembles a miracle is simply a low-probability occurence.

What do you think?

Regards, PA


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