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How did you come to believe what you do?


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#31    stargazer123

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Posted 13 February 2006 - 07:02 PM

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Stargazer- yes it's a chupi.  and the funny thing is after my mother died I quit going to christian churches all together.  Not that I don't like them or had not gone from time to time when I felt the need but I think it stemmed from what she told me when I was 16 in that I was old enough to decide for myself if I wanted to go to church or not.  So I figured after she died then there wasn't much reason to go afterwards.  (Much to the displeasure of my father and even more so after he got remarried.)


its funny how much alike some people on this thread are although everyone has different beliefs. My mom past away as well when i was a kid. When my father remarried they were even more adament....very similar to your situation. I understand completely.

"I am an arms dealer fitting you with weapons in the form of words and don't really care, which side wins as long as the room keeps singing that's just the business I'm in.This ain't a scene, it's a god damn arms race" Fall Out Boys
"Holes in our spirit causin' tears and fears One-sided stories for years and years and years I'm inferior? Whose inferior? Yeah, we need to check the interior Of the system, who cares about only one culture And that is why We gotta take the power back" Rage against the Machine

#32    stargazer123

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Posted 13 February 2006 - 07:15 PM

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lol.  Nice story stargazer123.  What did your grandmother say in return?  lol.

Nice to know there's another animal lover out there.

Yeah, I also get what you were saying about having a hard time taking Paul's words over Jesus's and stuff.  Some of the things said in Romans and such, although I understand what is being said, I kind of disagree with.  Which is why i'm trying to be a Jewish-Christian rather than just a Christian.  But even if you decide that as a Christian you don't have to follow all the laws in the O.T. I still don't see why Chrisitian's don't see the importance in observing the Jewish Holy Days like Passover, Rashashana, Yom Kippur, Hanukkah, Purim, and such.  The way I see it......when the Lord returns the Jewish and Christian peoples will become one anyway, so why not unite the O and N testament now and practice them both?


Essence
I remeber my grandmother and everyone at the table laughing her reply, "its two thousand years later and this is my house." LOL I think I got her on that one.
Well I can see your point about Jewish holidays. perhaps its that at the time after jesus the church did make changes in observances and those that followed jesus centered more holidays and such around him rather than the jewish ones. It carried down after that.
I was talking to a lady at church a while back about Roshashanna. She had never heard of it and remarked, "I don't celebrate jewish holidays." But that was actually the day that jesus rode in on the camel....Im just suprised how its kind of forgotten in that respect.
I think if you want to do that than more power to you. I have a friend who is christian but observes Mosaic law. I believe if its something that you feel would deeper your faith or connection spiritually than go for it. I think its wonderful. I'm more of that i personally believe in concentrating on my heart and spirit but deeply respect other people's observances in their religion. I wish you all luck and blessings for that.  original.gif

"I am an arms dealer fitting you with weapons in the form of words and don't really care, which side wins as long as the room keeps singing that's just the business I'm in.This ain't a scene, it's a god damn arms race" Fall Out Boys
"Holes in our spirit causin' tears and fears One-sided stories for years and years and years I'm inferior? Whose inferior? Yeah, we need to check the interior Of the system, who cares about only one culture And that is why We gotta take the power back" Rage against the Machine

#33    stargazer123

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Posted 13 February 2006 - 07:41 PM

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I was raised to trust in science, reason and logic..I was taught to remain skeptical of everything that wasn't backed up with empirical evidence and double-blind testing..
It served me well my whole life and ensured I was nobody's fool for the greater part of my life..
Last year however; a series of events happened(and continue to do so) that mocked science, made a fool of reason, and tore all logic asunder like so many sheets of lab data in a hurricane..
All I can say is; I now believe in a higher power despite all the contrary evidence, and don't doubt so heavily when other folks make claims about unbelievable events..
And I've never been happier..
So to all who knew be before on this website, and to those who have felt the lash of my unmitigated skepticism, I can only apologize..
To an extent..
Logic and rational thought should never be completely abandoned; but it seems to me there's a lot more out there than just that, and whatever we believe in that gives us strength is a good thing, and should be respected..


Falco
Wow....your post took a big heart and alot of guts to apologize like you did.
You know no matter what one believes, whether they believe in god or don't I think its the approach that is important. Doubt is okay but to ridicule is something different ya know?
I've had people tell me I'm nuts, take my meds, lay off the acid...etc...
I don't think that helps show their own thoughts in an intelligent way. I like the line in that movie "the sixth sense" when he said, "because they only see what they want to see."
From a religious or non-religious stand point I think its never bad to think outside the box.

I try to rationalize and place logic and when all that fails than I run with the possibilites.
There is so much we don't know and I can dig that! Thanks for sharing your story. original.gif



"I am an arms dealer fitting you with weapons in the form of words and don't really care, which side wins as long as the room keeps singing that's just the business I'm in.This ain't a scene, it's a god damn arms race" Fall Out Boys
"Holes in our spirit causin' tears and fears One-sided stories for years and years and years I'm inferior? Whose inferior? Yeah, we need to check the interior Of the system, who cares about only one culture And that is why We gotta take the power back" Rage against the Machine

#34    stargazer123

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Posted 13 February 2006 - 08:02 PM

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Mother was I think they call them pentacostal christian?  The ones with talking in tongues, people falling down all over the place, jumping, screaming, hands in the air praise the lord.
My father a Devout atheist.  There is no God.  Never was.  Sunday is for yard work.  Logic reigns supreme.  Die, your dirt, nothing more.  (was VP of J&J International, Linguist for USAF Intelligence, was a spy but he doesn't talk about that... he's a heavy hitter in the intellectual circles)

I came to my belief in my mid 20's after an amazing decade of decadence.  Not much I haven't seen or read and not much truely supprises me.  Have forgotten more about so many philosophies than many ever learn in a lifetime, and I live a conglomeration of these in a Taoistic way.

I guess I could have just agreed with RagePatriot... life experience.  Lots of it.  Lots of observation as well as participation.  Direct and indirect.

As a child it was impressed on me very early to observe.  I actually was the child seen but not heard.  And I saw it all, can't lie to me!  Already learned it.  I heard it.  Saw it.  Grew up that way to the teens where I went wild doing things instead of just watching/hearing/reading although it's such a part of me I did it out of habit anyway.

Thinking back, several times my heart races thinking about some things and I say to myself "why in the world aren't I dead yet!??!?"

Yep, life experiences have *LED* me to my beliefs.  I was brought to it by my life.  Like a big road sign saying "This is the way" and after having just climbed up the cliff I fell off trying the other way I'm going to start listening to the signs...


I just love your story telling!  yeah it would probably be Pentecostal. i've been to one of those once in my life. very interesting.  grin2.gif
What a mix, Pentecostal and atheist. I had those teen years too...HELLLO I don't know how I'm still here either! Not when you have motorcycle friends named "roadkill"  thumbsup.gif

Sometimes the signs are a little fuzzy....I've been watching but at times I feel like I'm headed to a dead end or a one way road. And yeah, I've tried to climb the mountain a few times from different angles and fell off the cliff multiple times. But you know I'm starting to think perhaps thats what lifes all about and perhaps its not so much as making it to the top as it is braving the climb in the first place.  original.gif



"I am an arms dealer fitting you with weapons in the form of words and don't really care, which side wins as long as the room keeps singing that's just the business I'm in.This ain't a scene, it's a god damn arms race" Fall Out Boys
"Holes in our spirit causin' tears and fears One-sided stories for years and years and years I'm inferior? Whose inferior? Yeah, we need to check the interior Of the system, who cares about only one culture And that is why We gotta take the power back" Rage against the Machine

#35    Ivo

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Posted 14 February 2006 - 06:37 AM

I am a strong agnostic.  I would be an atheist but I can't prove there is no higher intelligence anymore than someone can prove there is so I have to settle on that.

I came to this conclusion through much thought, study and scrutinization of religion.  No religion is logical to me and nothing in any religion has ever proved to me that it wasn't the creation of man.  

Science and logic have been the only steadfast forces in my life and I will never abandon them.  Neither is perfect but they are concepts unafraid to be proven wrong.  In fact, each idea proven to be false or true only adds to the greater knowledge in my opinion.  My quote from Carl Sagan sums it all up nicely.


#36    stargazer123

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Posted 14 February 2006 - 05:12 PM

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I am a strong agnostic.  I would be an atheist but I can't prove there is no higher intelligence anymore than someone can prove there is so I have to settle on that.

I came to this conclusion through much thought, study and scrutinization of religion.  No religion is logical to me and nothing in any religion has ever proved to me that it wasn't the creation of man.  

Science and logic have been the only steadfast forces in my life and I will never abandon them.  Neither is perfect but they are concepts unafraid to be proven wrong.  In fact, each idea proven to be false or true only adds to the greater knowledge in my opinion.  My quote from Carl Sagan sums it all up nicely.


Well I can appreciate that. I like the fact that you add balance. You go by what you know to be truth but do not lean too much either way unless its been proven or disproven.

Science and logic are infact great things. They give us understanding to something we otherwise might not understand. There is still so much we don't know but I think in realizing that much we at least do not abandon wisdom. Somethings might never be proven or disproven but its pretty amazing the level science has unfolded some things in our lifetime alone. Thank you for your post.

"I am an arms dealer fitting you with weapons in the form of words and don't really care, which side wins as long as the room keeps singing that's just the business I'm in.This ain't a scene, it's a god damn arms race" Fall Out Boys
"Holes in our spirit causin' tears and fears One-sided stories for years and years and years I'm inferior? Whose inferior? Yeah, we need to check the interior Of the system, who cares about only one culture And that is why We gotta take the power back" Rage against the Machine

#37    Bella-Angelique

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Posted 14 February 2006 - 05:24 PM

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I am a strong agnostic.  I would be an atheist but I can't prove there is no higher intelligence anymore than someone can prove there is so I have to settle on that.

I came to this conclusion through much thought, study and scrutinization of religion.  No religion is logical to me and nothing in any religion has ever proved to me that it wasn't the creation of man.  

Science and logic have been the only steadfast forces in my life and I will never abandon them.  Neither is perfect but they are concepts unafraid to be proven wrong.  In fact, each idea proven to be false or true only adds to the greater knowledge in my opinion.  My quote from Carl Sagan sums it all up nicely.



Science and logic are concepts and creations of man. They are newer terms than religion and ethics but both are very similiar in developement and in results.

There is bad science, scientific results changed or doctored to meet the expectations of an agenda or to just to aquire money or fame.
This is not different than what has transpired through the years with religions.

To wish to discount and throw away all the knowledge and wisdom of human nature aquired through thousands of years of observation done in religions is as insane as trying to abolish all science because of the stupidity and greed that produced the bad science.

Without logic there is chaos. Without morality and ethics there is chaos.
In chaos all civilizations are destroyed.

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#38    tags

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Posted 14 February 2006 - 05:30 PM

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I am a strong agnostic.  I would be an atheist but I can't prove there is no higher intelligence anymore than someone can prove there is so I have to settle on that.

I came to this conclusion through much thought, study and scrutinization of religion.  No religion is logical to me and nothing in any religion has ever proved to me that it wasn't the creation of man.  

Science and logic have been the only steadfast forces in my life and I will never abandon them.  Neither is perfect but they are concepts unafraid to be proven wrong.  In fact, each idea proven to be false or true only adds to the greater knowledge in my opinion.  My quote from Carl Sagan sums it all up nicely.

The only problem with your sagan quote is that it assumes that science has grasped the world as it really is.  While all the time it is changing it opinions and theories.  It should rather read 'better to grasp the world/universe as we think it is, but we cannot be sure' this would be a more scientific statement.

Can a mortal ask questions which God finds unanswerable? Quite easily, I should think. All nonsense questions are unanswerable.

C. S. Lewis

#39    stargazer123

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Posted 14 February 2006 - 07:45 PM

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Science and logic are concepts and creations of man. They are newer terms than religion and ethics but both are very similiar in developement and in results.

There is bad science, scientific results changed or doctored to meet the expectations of an agenda or to just to aquire money or fame.
This is not different than what has transpired through the years with religions.

To wish to discount and throw away all the knowledge and wisdom of human nature aquired through thousands of years of observation done in religions is as insane as trying to abolish all science because of the stupidity and greed that produced the bad science.

Without logic there is chaos. Without morality and ethics there is chaos.
In chaos all civilizations are destroyed.


Science is a state of knowing and something that is as old as the curiousity that drove it as well as logic. if you believe that we were created by God how can these things be seperate from God?


"I am an arms dealer fitting you with weapons in the form of words and don't really care, which side wins as long as the room keeps singing that's just the business I'm in.This ain't a scene, it's a god damn arms race" Fall Out Boys
"Holes in our spirit causin' tears and fears One-sided stories for years and years and years I'm inferior? Whose inferior? Yeah, we need to check the interior Of the system, who cares about only one culture And that is why We gotta take the power back" Rage against the Machine

#40    Celumnaz

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Posted 14 February 2006 - 08:21 PM

Free will?


#41    Chiron_the_Horse

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Posted 21 February 2006 - 06:31 PM

I have been this way since the dawn of time,why should I change what I believe??
There are many whys and wherefores that make us all up,first and foremost I know who I am and what I am,and that is a lot of what I do what I do.

I am in your heart,mind,body,soul,and in the stars...FOREVER...

7th son of a 7th son of a 7th son...

And if you don't believe that...I can't make you...it's your choice..




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